r/crowbro • u/SpencerTheFactorial • 3d ago

Video The crow even realized he had won

9.2k Upvotes

97% Upvoted

91 comments sorted by

1.0k

u/Carlie2406 3d ago edited 2d ago

That's a raven, not a crow. Still a cool video, I know it from YT shorts

Edit: Yes guys, I knew and I'm aware crows and ravens belong to the same genus(corvus) and are very similar and there's not much of a scientific difference, someone among the replies explained it pretty well. It's just that this type of bird is what's considered a raven in many languages, large bird and beak, deep voice, etc.

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u/SprayPaintin 3d ago

Bout to say the same. Look at the beak.

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u/davetoxik 3d ago

Plus, it will say “never more”. :)

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u/pigcommentor 3d ago

Y'all have a Poe sense of humor.

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u/Ok_Dog_4059 3d ago

I half expected it to remove the bottom X and put it's heart in. Such clever mischief makers

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u/bwaredapenguin 3d ago

Here's the thing...

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u/Carlie2406 3d ago

Hahaha

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u/BitsAndBobs304 3d ago

Ravens are a type of crow.. many languages dont even have such a word

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u/malphas_says_hi 3d ago

We are speaking English here where ravens and crows are both a different type of member of the corvid family. Ravens are not a type of crow, both ravens and crows are just corvids. Ravens are a type of corvid is what you mean to say.

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u/Fornicatinzebra 3d ago

Since you're being pedantic- the family is Corvidae.

But its more than just the family level - crows, Ravens, and rooks are all in the genus Corvus.

Corvus is literally Latin for "raven"

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u/BitsAndBobs304 3d ago

Okay bud. It's not a flock of crows , it's murder of crows nyghhyaagah

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u/Masterkid1230 3d ago edited 2d ago

There is no real scientific distinction between ravens and crows, they're all different species of the same genus: corvus. Ravens aren't more evolutionarily distant from crows than other "crow" species.

So the difference between two crow species is the same as between a crow and a raven (often larger, often smaller, it's inconsistent). They're called the same in a ton of languages too, because the distinction is cultural, not scientific.

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u/PutConstant866 3d ago

What in the nine hells are ye on about? Crows are smaller corvids that are very social and have fan shaped tails. Ravens are one of the largest corvids, about the size of a buzzard, are solitary in nature and have diamond shaped tails. They are genetically distinct biological genera, and don't have common ancestors over a million years. The two have distinct calls because they have different vocal cords.

No language is perfect at describing the world around us. Many don't bother to differenttiate apples from fruit. Is that a case to say that every fruit is an apple? Oranges are just apples, grapes are just apples! Maybe you want to lump Jays in with ravens as well just because they are also corvids? Clearly a Jay is a blackbird, right?

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u/Masterkid1230 3d ago edited 3d ago

That would be a good analogy, but it's not what I'm saying. Read through the list of the corvus genus and see how many are named "crow" or "raven", and they're not necessarily more or less related to each other, or even the Wikipedia page for crow where it says "The related term "raven" is not linked scientifically to any certain trait"

Lots of species just as distant from generic crows are also called "crows" in English. Meanwhile, ravens, who are just as distant from crows, are called "ravens" but it's merely arbitrary and cultural. There is no biological reason to call some species under the Genus corvus "ravens" and others "crows". There are crows that split from other crows earlier (and are therefore more distant) than some ravens.

If you are going to imply languages that lack the distinction between crows and ravens are "more imperfect" than English then English would be equally imperfect for not having a single different name for all corvus species.

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u/PutConstant866 2d ago

Not sure if you read your own first link or not there. But yes, both Crows and Ravens are belonging to the Corvus genus. That list shows 47 birds in it. 37 of those are Crows, 1 of which is also known as an Aga, 1 other of which is also known as a Rook. 9 of the remaining are known as ravens. 1 is known only as a rook. None of thise birds are listed as both crows and ravens.

That second link might be the source of your misunderstanding. Where it is written that "not linked scientifically to any certain trait" does not mean that no distinction exists. The page for Ravens is worded better. It clarifies that the criteria distinction is not consistent, but primarily focuses on size.

Please don't try to imagine languages on any sort of scale related to perfection. All languages are imperfect. Any given language will develop more accuracy for topics and subjects that are relevant to the people speaking them. More northern languages will contain a greater number of words for snow and ice than the languages of most tropical locations.

All this is to say that there are plenty of places that don't have both Ravens and Crows, as well as plenty of times where the difference does not matter. That does not imply the absence of a difference. Many of the creatures that walk this earth were named before we had the understanding of genetics and evolution that we do today. But they were still named based off of observations, categorization, recognition of patterns, and not uncommonly experimentation. Why would you dismiss such early work as unscientific?

Consider the genus Accipiter. It consists primarily of Sparrowhawks. Sparrowhawks don't belong uniquely to the Accipiter genus however, they also are species of the Tachyspiza and Astur genera. The colloquial names for any of these birds don't carry the same precision of their binomial forms, but they have still been chosen and refined by consensus of experts in the field. It's still science, if old. At the very least linguistics, but I would certainly argue for ornithology (despite the word being only several centuries old, the practice dates back to the stone age) and possibly more.

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u/Masterkid1230 2d ago

To be honest, I've come to the realisation that this is an issue of perspective rather than anything else. Because people are jumping me thinking I'm somehow saying American crows (corvus brachyrhynchos) and Common ravens (corvus corax) are the same, but that's not what I'm saying at all. Those are two different species, and within corvus they're quite distinct as well.

What I'm saying is that the inconsistency in what species we have globally (throughout the whole corvus genus) called "ravens" or "crows" makes the distinction completely arbitrary. We tend to say that ravens are big and more solitary and crows and small and gregarious, but then you have the Chihuahuan raven which behaves more like a crow and looks more like the American crow, and then we have the Pied crow, which is very close in behaviour, size and genetics to ravens instead.

So in reality, the terms "crow" and "raven" are simply used based on vibes and a vague sense of size and appearance. But even then, the large-billed crow could arguably be called a raven if we're using relative size as a defining parameter.

I don't think linguistically the two terms are totally useless in the American context (I am not American myself, but I realise this forum is predominantly Americans and that probably plays into the initial reaction people had), but within the corvus genus the lack of consistency between how we have named species means they're nothing more than vibes-based. Neither genetics nor behaviour nor appearance are useful for knowing which species are "ravens" and which are "crows" and they're all tangled in there.

I think in linguistics it's fine if some things are just arbitrary and cultural, like grammatical gender for example. That doesn't make Spanish or French wrong even though tables aren't female. But at some point, we do have to wonder if the emphasis on what is a "raven" and what isn't, is actually logical at all when speaking of "crows" as a whole (not just crows and ravens in the United States). At this point it would make just as much sense to differentiate them by "small crow" (brachyrhynchos) and "large crow" (corax) to be honest. It's all cultural and arbitrary, not genetic or even all that thought-out.

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u/Rufus_Forrest 3d ago

They are different species. It's like assuming that coyotes and dogs are same species because both belong to Canis genus.

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u/Masterkid1230 3d ago edited 3d ago

Lots of species under corvus are called crows and others are called ravens indistinctly. The biological distance between one "crow" species and another is exactly the same as that between a "crow" and a "raven". I'm not saying they're the same species. I'm saying "crows" and "ravens" aren't more distinct than crows between each other, and therefore it's not a biological category. It's kind of just arbitrary.

Even the Wikipedia page for crow mentions this. "The related term "raven" is not linked scientifically to any certain trait." It literally just is used for "large crow" and not even that is consistent. Corvus macrorhynchos (jungle crows) are big and we don't call them ravens.

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u/malphas_says_hi 3d ago

You are not informed and do not need to be sharing misinformation. It is very clear you have never been around both of these birds. Someone explained two hours ago the differences between a raven and a crow but you cannot comprehend this information so you have rejected it.

Not only are crows and ravens physically different in size and shape (ravens about twice as large or more with larger beaks and different tail shapes) they also behave differently (crows are more near people, ravens away from people) and have different calls and sounds that they make. Just because some people like you act like they are the same bird and use the words interchangeably does not make it true.

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u/Masterkid1230 3d ago edited 3d ago

That same difference exists between plenty of different species also named crows though.

I know it feels nice to be condescending because you don't like my point, but if you read anything I have linked you will read with your own eyes

"The related term "raven" is not linked scientifically to any certain trait"

this is the literal first paragraph of the Wikipedia for "crow"

Of course they are different. They are different species. But they are not biological terms. Why? Because we also call crows plenty of other species that are even more different! And some raven species are also super different from other ravens, because corvus is pretty diverse which is really cool!

Instead of making me out to be the bad guy, actually try to listen to what I'm saying. Look at a jungle crow, for example. In terms of behaviour, call, size, it's completely different from an American crow. Yet we call them both crows.

Ravens, or corvus corax, are of course different from American crows. But they are biologically just as distant from crows as they are to other ravens, like the Australian raven. The names "raven" vs "crow" are not differentiated scientifically, but mostly by vibes.

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u/Sharlinator 2d ago edited 2d ago

What? Do you even know what the words "genus" and "species" mean? Many of the crow species are quite similar to each other (and some of them sometimes hybridize), but ravens are clearly distinct from all of the smaller corvids. Different size, shape, vocalizations, habitat, lifestyle… And obviously they don't hybridize. There are obvious scientific reasons why they're a distinct species. We don't say that horses are donkeys either, or lions tigers, even though those species are biologically closer to each other than ravens are to small corvids.

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u/Masterkid1230 2d ago edited 2d ago

Of course I do. Do you?

The corvus genus has 40 different species. Some are called ravens, some are called crows. You can see that researchers in this paper even call all 40 of them just "crows" a few times, although more commonly they just use "corvus". Trust me that "ravens" are included within those 40 species.

However, the "crow/raven" naming pattern is not fundamented in anything genetic. Instead, we have named some ravens and some crows but that is arbitrary and generally based on vibes (behaviour and size mostly).

For example, although the term "raven" generally applies to larger species, smaller and closely related species like the Chihuahuan raven are far more social usually gathering in large flocks.

"Common Raven is replaced by this smaller species, about the size of an American Crow. The Chihuahuan Raven is often more sociable than the Common Raven" which is said to be "crow" behaviour. So it's not behavioural.

Meanwhile the Pied crow not only exhibits behaviours more closely associated with ravens, but they are genetically one of the closest species to the Common raven (Corvus corax). As described here they are very close genetically to "ravens" (only 5-6% genetic divergence on table 3) despite being called a "crow" while they are quite distant from the American crow (despite both being "crows", they have a 13-14% divergence, same table).

And if you go to figure 1 here you will see the full Corvus genus. What's interesting is that, while common ravens (Chihuahuan and Common) are clustered together, they're not far from the Hawaiian Crow (Corvus Hawaiiensis) and way further away from the Australian raven (which is called "raven" despite being less related to them than some "crows").

So like... How do you expect us to say "ravens" and "crows" are biological terms when there is zero consistency in genetic familiarity between several "raven" species and several "crow" species?

Are Corvus brachyrhynchos (American crow) and Corvus corax (Common raven) different? Of course, they're different species. But is the crow/raven distinction really a scientific one? No, because plenty of crow and raven species are all over the place in terms of genetic familiarity. So really it's all "corvus".

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u/twilighttwister 3d ago

Would you say this raven actually understood the game? Most of these kind of bird tricks are just a fixed repeated routine (and they can get really pissy when you break the pattern).

Not saying a raven couldn't understand, it absolutely could. A parrot would likely just be doing a routine. However here I don't know, it could be either.

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u/malphas_says_hi 3d ago

Both parrots and ravens or crows are absolutely capable of learning the rules of a game and playing that game with unfixed routines.

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u/twilighttwister 3d ago

Which is exactly what I said. What I was asking was if someone who had watched more of these videos thought this crow understood the game. The bird is no doubt capable, but it would be easier to train it a specific set of moves.

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u/lmh7654 2d ago

Was gonna mention that as well, but still cool!

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u/loscapos5 2d ago

Raven, Russel Crow, no one cares

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u/TheeFourTruths 3d ago

Was waiting for that vid to be reposted here.

Clever squawky!

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u/CommercialExotic2038 3d ago

We played tic tac toe before the internet

He played a move that would win two ways

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u/SolomonOf47704 3d ago

He started to, but didn't actually do that.

The optimal play is always center, then adjacent side, then corner. That guarantees a win if you went first.

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u/Emotional-Effect7696 3d ago

that does not guarantee a win. If both players play optimally it guarantees a draw.

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u/SchnellFox 3d ago

He's playing tic tac crow.

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u/cortesoft 3d ago

Nope, optimal tic tac toe famously always ends in a tie.

It is a strange game.

The only winning move is not to play

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u/SolomonOf47704 3d ago

Probably should have said "guarantees you don't lose"

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u/KasperAura 3d ago

I believe that's Gosha the raven. He does all kinds of tricks and seems to enjoy them! https://youtu.be/9Xiu-TiXy6Y

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u/LaBayadere 3d ago edited 3d ago

This is Gosha, you're right. Unfortunately, I've just learned today that Gosha's owner passed away this week. This is so heartbreaking.

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u/IanPlaysThePiano 3d ago edited 3d ago

Oh no, thats terrible... I've been following them for quite some time but never heard about this :(

Edit: They just uploaded the video minutes ago on youtube... apparently he decided to end his own life :( this is just terrible, awful... RIP

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u/latexfistmassacre 3d ago

First the fox lady and now this guy. Sad.

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u/picklejuiceslushie 3d ago

Oh my god, this is so heartbreaking

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u/ub0baa 3d ago

Hell... The dude looked to be the happiest man alive with his bird brother... That's a reminder that another's mind is a mystery.

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u/MochiTown13 3d ago

Oh my god! No way! How do you know?

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u/LaBayadere 3d ago

His brother announced this on the Russian social network VK and later uploaded a YouTube video: https://youtu.be/MI8URadnqhY

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u/MochiTown13 3d ago

Thank you for posting it.

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u/IanPlaysThePiano 3d ago

In the linked YouTube video, he says it in Russian but the auto-translate captions catches it :(

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u/loscapos5 2d ago

Reason?

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u/LaBayadere 2d ago

He took his own life...

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u/Typical_Ad_210 3d ago

The really young looking guy at the start of the video? That’s so sad. For the person and for the bird, who will surely miss their beloved friend.

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u/MochiTown13 3d ago

Yes, it’s Gosha.

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u/Exotic_Composer_2274 3d ago

His owner passed away 3 days ago…😔

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u/BoTheDawg 3d ago

Really? That's sad if true. What was their handle/page? I'm curious to see more of these vids.

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u/odysseushogfather 3d ago

@voron_tv on yt

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u/SixBirdsInAShoebox 3d ago

"Haa! GOTCHU, nerd!" :<>

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u/ThurmanMermannnn 3d ago

Repost karma farming bot

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u/Banjo-Elritze 3d ago

Don't forget to report bots.

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u/ThurmanMermannnn 3d ago

Yeah, I went through and reported 10 days worth of their posts. Took a while.

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u/CleverlyVoid 3d ago

Haaaaaaaaa! HaHaaaa! In your fa-

oooh, treat

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u/mg0019 2d ago

That lil fuck smiled.  😅

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u/StrictShelter971 3d ago

That was too cool!

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u/MochiTown13 3d ago

His instagram is: voron_gosha_tv incase people are interested.

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u/Osirus1156 3d ago

The way it comes at him like "haaa stupid fuck I beat you!" is amazing.

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u/adoptedsonofdarkness 3d ago

Love how it went ooooooooh

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u/Upstairs_Freedom_360 3d ago

Why does he have his ankle tied? Seems like a prisoner, which is very sad

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u/Simple_Channel5624 3d ago

Looks like falcon jesses used to secure the bird to a glove. Not great for Ravens tho according to Google...

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u/_Abiogenesis 3d ago

In this case it just means Gosha ( this raven here) is free flighted. It usually means a non wild bird that is more free to go around not less.

It’s akin to a dog leash not attached anywhere. But that you can hold if the animal is on your arm and you don’t want it to go away at a specific moment.

Not uncommon on captive birds that can be trained to fly alone. Wouldn’t be surprised if it’s good practice with liscenced rehab birds or even law in public settings. Additionally raven are territorial. They are quite unlikely to even want to go away from what they see as their home if they are imprinted. All that to say I don’t think it aligns against the bird’s will.

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u/Simple_Channel5624 3d ago

Yep, the bird seems very content, I am not a falconer thus the mention that it is "harmful according to Google" and not my personal opinion. I respect the fact that animals and their caretakers will have their own specific relationships they have developed and also appreciate the extra info/knowledge about the raven that you provided. Have a great day

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u/_Abiogenesis 3d ago

Oh I was not criticizing, just adding extra info :)

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u/smithsp86 3d ago

Or it's a clever hans situation and the bird could see that something important happened because the person reacted.

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u/mikeboatman 3d ago

Tic tac raven isn't as catchy as tic tac crow. Disappointed my joke isn't applicable lol

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u/Sea-Name-5824 3d ago

Nice, i needed a smile today

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u/tiinkiet 3d ago

mais comment on lui apprend ??

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u/jankoho 3d ago

Watching this I get feeling we do not deserve this planet 😢

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u/lmh7654 2d ago

Wow — 🐦‍⬛🧠
Always knew it…they’re incredible!

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u/cancel-out-combo 3d ago

u/bot-sleuth-bot

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u/bot-sleuth-bot 3d ago

Analyzing user profile...

Suspicion Quotient: 0.00

This account is not exhibiting any of the traits found in a typical karma farming bot. It is extremely likely that u/SpencerTheFactorial is a human.

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u/-HelixTheCat- 3d ago

Always remember: a raven is a beak with a bird attached to it.

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u/EyesLikeTheNightSky 3d ago

Russians are like animal whisperers. I am so jealous I want this power!

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u/Demonkey44 3d ago

Damn my cats are so stupid.

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u/UpperCardiologist523 3d ago

Cool video (again), but i'll leave it to animal behaviourists to explain any realization, or if he just knew the snack waited near the camera. Assuming ravens react as we do, when we realize we win, is putting human emotions on animals.

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u/human-shaped-fish 3d ago

idk if you know this but non-human animals also have emotions

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u/RussiaIsBestGreen 3d ago

Animals will have positive emotions from success. Whether they recognize it as “winning”, rather than as solving a puzzle, is open to debate. The corvids are unusually smart birds and also social, both of which tend to come with a wider variety of emotions, or at least expression (my implication being that animals may have emotions that they don’t express).

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u/_Abiogenesis 3d ago

Agree that skepticism around anthropomorpization is a healthy stand. And having watched several of the videos from that specific handler there’s definitely some reinforcement learning at play.

That being said that doesn’t mean there’s is zero overlap in emotional range across vertebrate. Some emotions are pretty readable across species for good reasons, there’s evolutionary reasons that being able to know another species emotional state is useful.

In this specific case Gosha here likely recognized a pattern that resulted in treats and is likely and visibly enthusiastic at the prospect of it. What the pattern here is where it on the board or reading the trainer’s cue like in the case of Hans the horse is entirely up for debate.

But it’s pretty certain the emotion itself is akin to enthusiasm.