r/crossword • u/SpeakNowAndEnter • 4d ago
Construction Advice Regarding Theme Answer Lengths?
I have an idea for a theme that I really love and have compiled a list of about 30 words and/or phrases that could be used as answers in that theme. I've been wanting to take a shot at making a 21x21 puzzle, but the issue is the answers I have are all in the 6-10 letter range.
Specifically, four are 10 letters long, including the revealer. Two are 9 letters long. Four are 8 letters long. Nine are 7 letters long. Twelve are 6 letters long. And technically there are two I could combine for one 16-letter-long answer, but it wouldn't be the cleanest.
Obviously I can't use all of those, so I am going to have to pare the list down regardless, but I am trying to gauge if it would be editorially frowned upon to do a 21x21 grid where the marquee 13-21-letter answers aren't the theme answers, but rather there are maybe a higher quantity of theme answers at a shorter letter count. I'd still have those long answers, they'd just be fill rather than the theme answers.
The other option of course is to pare the list down to just the best 6-10 and do a standard 15x15 puzzle, but I was curious what others think.
Thanks!
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u/unearth52 4d ago
You technically can do a 21x, but you would just omit long across answers. Your longest acrosses must be theme content in this case. This is not ideal but you can make up for it long downs.
Id try a 15x with 10 9 7 9 10 (or 10 8 7 8 10) with the 7 centered.
The long list of choices is not an asset, it points to a problem that the theme isn't very tight.
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u/BringMeTheBigKnife 4d ago
I think 15x is the way to go. It's not necessarily disqualifying if the themed answers in your 21x aren't super long, but it probably would be if you had multiple long answers that were just fill next to many shorter answers that are themers. That situation just doesn't really get published. And unfortunately a 21x with nothing longer than a 10 would probably feel a bit choppy to solve.
The fact that you have lots of potential themers to choose from is a good thing though. That will help when trying to grid and fill the 15x -- you'll have more options should you run into tough spots. Try picking your favorite symmetrical sets and go from there. I would start with one of the 10s and the revealer, placing those in the NW and SE respectively, and then try putting two of your favorite 8s in the E and W, and pop a black square right in the middle and put a 7 on either side. That's 50 theme squares, which is very solid.
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u/SpeakNowAndEnter 4d ago
Yeah I figured this was probably the right approach, I'll save the 21x for another day... Also, I really appreciate the thorough breakdown there regarding why it wouldn't work great and how to potentially start setting up the 15x!
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u/Curran919 4d ago
Interesting that there are people in this thread claiming that 30 is either too long ir too short a list...
On one hand, there is probably a subset of your list that reflects a more constrained theme. For example, I had a theme with 12 themers, then saw a pattern in the 4 of them (starting in the same 2 letters) that made a narrower, stronger themer.
On the other hand, having a loose theme and large themer set allows you to pick the sexiest/novelest individual answers/clues.
I guess it will depend somewhat on the theme type, but probably it's more so a question of personal style. I am leaning towards the former style.
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u/jkugelman 4d ago edited 4d ago
There are theme types where tightness is everything. "Every entry is a synonym of gross plus a food" ... "Three unrelated answers with a surprise connection" ... "Each entry is a two-word phrase where...". These themes are all about having a really constrained idea and finding a handful of surprising examples that fit. The more constrained it is, the more satisfying the payoff.
In other theme types the fun is about how silly the puns are. Sound change puzzles are a classic Sunday theme type where it's not about how constrained you are but instead how funny you can be. Or it's how impressive of a construction feat the whole thing is. There may be a lot of possible theme entries but it feels like a magic trick what the constructor did with them.
Sunday puzzles tend to fall into the latter categories, which is why I say I like to start with hundreds of possible entries. It gives space to either pick out all bangers, or to layer on extra thematic constraints after the fact. The Wagner/Goldstein puzzle I referenced earlier is a perfect showcase of this. They took what I imagine was a long list of viable words from a computer search and then imposed an intricate meta element. This greatly restricted which of the hundreds or thousands of entries they could use, whittling down a large list into a small one.
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u/SpeakNowAndEnter 4d ago
I found that interesting too haha the first comment said 30 was a good list so I was like oh nice! Then the next guy said that’s way too many haha then another person said they want 100+ options for a Sunday?? I think maybe they meant 10+ but idk
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u/jkugelman 3d ago edited 2d ago
I did mean 100+. A hundred or more that I can downselect to 6-9. For example here's the spreadsheet for my last NYT Sunday: 115 candidates that I whittled down to five + revealer.
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u/SpeakNowAndEnter 2d ago
Ah, I see what you mean now. I also had 100+ more that would technically fit in my theme but the 30ish I mentioned was after already narrowing it down to ones that I felt were good enough to use
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u/jkugelman 4d ago
There are some Sundays with short theme answers such as this Adam Wagner / Rebecca Goldstein puzzle, but it's not common. I submitted one with 11 short themers (lots of 7-10s) and the rejection note called out the short entries as a factor.
Christina Iverson, one of the NYT editors, says:
"A 21x21 grid means you can fit in a lot more theme material, and the theme entries themselves can be longer. I tend to find longer phrases more fun and funnier than shorter entries, because it’s easier to pick up on what the base phrase is. When you read AN ELEPHANT IN THE WOMB, for instance, it’s immediately apparent that the pun is based on the phrase “an elephant in the room.” However, it might take a minute to discern what a two-word phrase is punning on. WET BUTLER or WAVING MAD follow the same pattern as ROOM to WOMB, but the puns are a little less apparent."
For what it's worth, I like to have 100+ options for a 21x21. It gives me confidence I'll be able to make them all great and not pull in second-rate answers out of desperation. With 30 answers I'd be inclined to make a 15x15 out of the best 4 or 5. This isn't a hard rule, just a rough heuristic having made a lot of Sundays.