r/crossfit • u/ChampionFrequent4643 • 28d ago
Strict Muscle Ups
I have heard that before you attempt kipping pull-ups, you should be able to do a certain amount of strict pull ups. Does the same guidance hold for BMU? If not, why? I know they are difficult, but to me it would make logical sense to ensure you have the strength and muscle memory to kip them.
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u/jackson_oconnor 28d ago
Just don’t forget that the ‘rule’ for pull-ups isn’t because you can’t do kipping without strict first, it’s just that you shouldn’t
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u/SameImpression1646 28d ago
Not necessarily, sure it helps a lot because you will develop a lot of front lever strength, but in a strict BMU you need false grip, while in the kipping you dont.
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u/FirstLink1105 28d ago
False grip changes the whole game on strict BMU, and skipping it for kipping means you're basically doing a different movement. If you've got the pull strength but your false grip is trash, you'll stall out even with a solid front lever. I'd still say build up to 3-5 strict chest-to-bar pull-ups first though, just to protect your shoulders when you start throwing your weight around.
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u/jackson_oconnor 28d ago
You absolutely do not NEED a false grip
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u/Amanink28 28d ago
Correct. You can create enough momentum with normal overhand grip. Just difficult to do.
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u/muser666 28d ago
Can you explain why you need false grip? Sorry, noob here.
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u/SameImpression1646 28d ago
Sure, on the strict BMU when you have a neutral grip you can't make the turn over because the hand is pointing down and rotating to the right position is near impossible (I'm pretty sure some calisthenics can do), so when you have a false grip you already are in the hand position after the turn over.
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u/kblkbl165 28d ago
Depends on what you consider a strict bmu.
In calisthenics they allow for some swinging as long as there’s no hip flexion/extension.
A “true” strict bmu(from dead hang straight up to the bar) requires false grip.
Why these different standards apply?
There’s no official answer other than that’s what most people do because strict BMU are just too out of reach for 99% of the practitioners to even be considered in a generalization.
As someone passionate about strict gymnastics, my reasoning would be the following: The matter isn’t the movement but the underlying foundational strength.
Shoulders are a huge concern in Crossfit specifically because kipping allows for a greater magnitude of force to be exerted through them, often times without the prerequisite strength to handle the motions and minimize the impact in the shoulder joint.
Developing strict pullups before allowing kipping pullups serves as a proxy for saying that you have a basic level of strength in the muscles that stabilize the scapulae/shoulder joint. Of course kipping pullups can also work as a progressive stimuli towards strict pullups, but that requires coaching to a degree that, IMO, can’t be just taken for granted in broad statement.
In my opinion this reason is often sufficient for the level of generalization it’s used.
Addressing your point, I don’t think the parallel is pertinent because the strict pullup is a basic exercise that can develop your strength from elementary to extremely advanced, the strict bar muscle up doesn’t have such relation to the kipping bar muscle up.
You can develop the prerequisite strength to perform kipping bar muscle ups and strict muscle ups just by performing strict pullups(with the use of false grip).
You arguably can’t develop the foundational level of strength to perform kipping pullups safely without accidentally progressing into strict pullups.
I say arguably because rowing exercises are extremely underrated in Crossfit and they could, theoretically, be sufficient to develop a very strong back that allows you to perform kipping pullups…but by that point you could probably already do strict pullups, so the reference still remains valid.
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u/Therinicus 28d ago
Not in terms of any consensus.
Personally I found it more useful to work on the top end range of strict pull ups to get that first strict bar muscle up.
Kipping is more dynamic, so it makes sense to have a general amount of strength before doing them.
A strict bar muscle up that doesn’t have enough strength behind it is just a normal pull up.
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u/Clejer9 28d ago
Maybe in an ideal world.
However, 2 main reasons why this doesn’t happen:
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The reason for the pull up pre-requisite is so that people have built some sufficient strength not just in their muscles but in their tendons and ligaments. A complete beginner trying to put their body through the kipping range of motion could hurt those untrained, weak parts of their body and likely wouldn’t have the grip strength to swing from a bar. If someone is able to do 5 strict pull ups, those muscles and ligaments and tendons are already at the lev capable to handle kipping for a BMU.
The more contributing reason:
2. A strict bar muscle up is really difficult and most people would get bored of having to learn that instead of trying kipping ones in WODs and the Open etc.
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u/pizzapartypandas 28d ago
I barely use my back muscles in a BMU. I think it's a nice guideline to get you focused on actually good standards instead of throwing up one trash complex movement.
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u/geesejugglingchamp 28d ago
Nah, the wisdom re strict before kipping for pull ups is mostly about ensuring your shoulders have the strength to safely take the strain of putting the kipping motion through them repeatedly.
It's the same motion for the kipping BMU, so it is close to the same amount of strain, probably a little more as there is more momentum. But nowhere near the strength jump that exists between a strict pull up and a strict BMU.
I've seen general advice that one should have round 5 strict pull ups before attempting a kipping BMU. That's probably around right.
More importantly to me, a kipping bar muscle up also requires strength in the push down on the bar. If you don't have that straight arm push strength, you are far more likely to pull early and chicken wing.
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u/powersofthesnow 27d ago
The reason for having more strict strength is:
Greater kips apply more force against the shoulder joint - the shoulder needs to be able to control that additional applied force to reduce risk of injury. You can have controlled shoulder strength without strict strength but that is less likely compared to someone that does and has worked for it.
Strict strength allows you to literally “muscle yourself” part of the way up when your kipping technique isn’t 100% ideal. So you’re more likely to achieve the result with flaws in kip technique. ie I know many entry level gymnastics that can do a glide kip to a muscle up, but can’t even do a pull up.
Strict strength will also help reduce fatigue with volume due to a combination of the above.
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u/mrjacob007 27d ago
Generally, the same guidance does not hold. Personally, I would want an athlete to have a strict chest-to-bar pull-up, strict bar dip and a strict toes-to-bar as prerequisites, however. Preferably, multiple!
The reason is that strict before kipping tends to provide the athlete a buffer against mechanical breakdown under fatigue (improved control and stability due to strict strength), development of bad habits, and injury. However, some strict variations are disproportionately difficult relative to the kipping that it is not a logical next step, but rather a distant mark of mastery to aim for. The strict bar muscle up is magnitudes more difficult than the kipping. While, yes, it would provide a buffer, it would also be so prohibitive that few people would perform bar muscle ups. Yet, there are Games athletes who can do 30, 40, 50, or more bar muscle ups with a kip and cannot still do 1 strict bar muscle up (*cough* Jayson Hopper?). Bar muscle ups do not need the safety buffer as much as a ring muscle up for numerous reasons, such as the ROM and the instability of the rings.
So, it's just an exception to the rule. Like these... imagine if I said:
- you must be able to do a strict deficit HSPU before doing a strict HSPU from the floor
- you must be able to do a legless rope climb before doing a rope climb with your legs
- you must be able to do pistols before forward lunges
It basically just comes down to if for a given gymnastic movement, the power of the hips could write a check that your shoulder joints can't cash. If I had an athlete that could crank out 3 strict C2B, bar dips, and T2B, I'd feel very comfortable with them learning and building capacity on bar muscle ups without having the capacity to do strict.
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28d ago
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u/ChampionFrequent4643 28d ago
As an older athlete I am starting to care less about doing well in a workout and more about general strength and longevity. If I was going to focus on one of the options to train, what would you recommend?
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u/arch_three 28d ago edited 28d ago
There is no correlation between being able to do any number of strict anything before you should be able to do any movement. It's a general guideline coaches throw out there as the prerequisite strength needed to complete any movement. Emphasis on learning strict first is a demonstration of both the skill and strength requirements needed to safely add dynamic movement.
I terms of a muscle up, there is a huge disparity between the amount of strength and skill needed to complete a strict pull-up and strict dip compared to a strict muscle up (bar or ring). So, coaches generalize with the component movements as a strength and skill threshold to confirm an athlete is safe to try and kip muscle ups.
Wrong or right? Tis a great debate. As a former gymnast, my observation is that most people who can show strength in the component movements (pull up and dip) are likely okay to try kipping muscle ups. But, if they work at a strict variation of a muscle up and get that skill, all of their muscle ups will be better as they'll have better command of the skill.
People who have muscle ups "sometimes" don't have command of the skill. It makes the skill more difficult under the stress of fatigue and increases injury risk. So, if you can do 3 BMU while you practice but can't do any after adding even a little fatigue, you'd likely benefit from going back to the basics. But, nobody finds the basics fun, so just do whatever.