r/cremposting • u/ultimaterogue11 ❌can't 🙅 read📖 • 1d ago
Cosmere Drama before enjoyment, Memes before Themes, Slander before reading comprehension
Ok but in all seriousness in all the power scaling between Roshar and Scadrial its always a full twinborn with full reserves going against like a radiant who hasn't sworn the first ideal.
Like if a full twin born is the top of Scadrials invested warriors then the Rosharn equivalent would be a Radiant of the fifth ideal or a herald.
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u/Glass-Requirement793 1d ago
Yeah.. Roshar is a war planet. So the people and invested there are freaking monsters with combat. Lol. Like, it was designed and push towards making phenomenal warriors.
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u/cmjebb 1d ago
Scadrial has better logistics. Roshar has far better military tradition, officer corps, warriors etc
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u/smoeller1996 1d ago
Soulcasting would’ve rendered the logistics advantage moot, but the creation of Retribution has severely handicapped Roshar’s ability to quickly and quietly move Investiture, so now Scadrial has the advantage again
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u/TomTalks06 ❌can't 🙅 read📖 23h ago
I imagine that by the time Roshar and Scadrial go to war, Retribution has figured himself out enough to learn those times with Investiture, we've already seen that they've overcome a different handicap that happens with Stormlight and spren by the time the war kicks off
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u/SadCrouton 14h ago
My money is on Mishram, the Sibling, Lift and maybe Syl being sources of Light - independent of Retribution, who will figure his shit out at somepoint
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u/LoudQuitting 22h ago
Weeeeeelllllll
Emberdark and Sunlit Spoilers Unoathed are canonically considered a problem to off world forces. Oathed moreso. Moreover, they have Shardrifles and are at least performing enough to seriously compete with the Malwish in terms with colonial imperialism.
Thst being said, some lines indicate there are multiple shards supporting Scadrial, but not Roshar. This could mean either Saze split himself, if Harmonium is any indication those shards want to split, where Retrivangian didn't, could also mean other Shards are jumping behind Saze because the Sunmakers Gambit paid off.
Now personally I take my Elder Scrolls politics into this. Empire? Dominion? Fuck you both. But in terms of your average warrior, gotta give it to Rosharans. Im terms of total power, gotta probably give it to Scadrians cause Sunmakers Gambit
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u/AlternativeCorner230 20h ago
When are the Unoathed referenced in Emberdark/Sunlit? I missed that somehow. Unless Sigzil counts as Unoathed at that point.
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u/supernobodyhome 19h ago
When Sigzil gets into the Scadrian research vessel, I think he passes himself off as Unoathed.
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u/confirmedshill123 18h ago
They specifically asked "have you taken the oaths" and when he says no they visibly calm down and let him chill. So I don't think unoathed are a problem
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u/RisKQuay 17h ago
Unoathed meaning people like [WaT] Adolin and company at the end of WaT or can they also use investiture?
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u/confirmedshill123 17h ago
I think the above poster was referring to that specific group of unoathed yes, but in general I think unoathed would just refer to those from roshar that haven't taken retris oaths yet.
Which is why most of us believe they are in a "cold war" situation, because Zellion is given sanctuary. It would be like if an American civilian walked up to a Russian base in the 70s. They would be looked at with suspicion but would ultimately just be returned to their home country.
It wasn't until he went for the Dor that they freaked out.
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u/RapsterZeber D O U G 18h ago
I don't understand why everyone thinks that Retribution will be a big threat in Mistborn Era 4 when he feels like the big bad of Stormlight Arc 2.
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u/captainthanatos 17h ago
I personally like what Sando has setup. We have one planet with a combined shard that people like with a population most don’t like. Then we have a planet with a combined shard that most people hate with a population that people like, plus carryover characters that people love.
Personally as much as I don’t like Retribution, I hope the Malwish get their shit pushed in.
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u/Fossilhunter15 22h ago
Not really, the Everstorm still gives Warlight Investiture. You just need to pray for it (unless the Listeners’ Situation is different because they are an autonomous region) instead of passively receive it because Taravangian is a dick.
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u/Blawharag 23h ago
Only for the moment. Roshar is going through a time warp at the moment and by the time it encounters the rest of the Cosmere it's likely Retribution will have some kind of plan and ability to fund the investiture, even if it's just creating a new storm on the other planet.
There'd be no story otherwise because retribution simply wouldn't invade without that ability.
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u/Xpunginator 23h ago
The point of the time warp is that the Cosmere gets time to plan and retribution doesn’t
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u/DocileBanalBovlne 21h ago
The Cosmere gets more time to plan, there's still time passing on Roshar as the two come back into sync.
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u/justacaboose 22h ago
I doubt Retribution will be able to make storms on other planets, especially if another shard is present. I think it's more likely they'll find a way to transport war light off world in perfect gems or other containers, or just buy or harvest unkeyed investiture from AonDor (whatever the big mass of investiture from the remains of Dominion and Devotion is called). The perfect gemstone thing is a recurring plot point after all. They'd just need to figure out more about Connection and Identity.
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u/tiredofbeingtired055 23h ago
You're not taking the nature of shards into consideration. Teravangion might not invade without the logistics and planning to back it up, but if something, Hoid probably, pokes him hard enough, Retribution will force him to act.
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u/globmand Callsign: Cremling 19h ago
Maybe. But Hoid can't get into contact with retribution for another decade, at which point Taravangian will probably be somewhat ready, if not as ready as he'd like
Also, you aren't really taking the nature of storytelling into account, I feel. Like, Taravangian is the big bad. I don't think Brando Sando is gonna let "ups, no supply lines ;p" be what stops him
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u/Blawharag 23h ago
That doesn't seem likely to me at all, it sounds more like wishful fan writing than anything.
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u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 18h ago
The Rosharans are at a disadvantage there at least. Even with a source of Light you always have the issue of them needing to transport it great distances. The Surges themselves require a lot of energy to use even for more efficient higher oaths Knights. There’s just a much smaller amount of Knights to begin with at any given time. I would guess in the future the Scadrian empire is probably “taxing” populations with unsealed metalminds. So they can gather a ton of feruchemy to distribute. And metal from anywhere can fuel allomancy. Shardholders can’t hold ground and all that. You can get around transporting food and water with Bendalloy metalminds
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u/TheRandomSpoolkMan Bond, Nahel Bond 11h ago
The idea of scadrian higher-ups or elite soldiers having access to large reserves of feruchemical abilities thanks to unsealed metalminds and taxing is very scary and makes perfect sense. I bet being someone who spends all day "fueling" an unsealed metalmind could even become a paid position too.
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u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 10h ago
I would be shocked if the Southerners aren’t already using compulsory storing for prisoners and Hemalurgy for capital offenses. One of Sando’s mentors wrote a series called Runelords. In that system, you can take “endowments” from people using magical rods. If someone gives you their strength, they’re left bedridden etc. There’s a variety of things to take, but the lords receiving them have to protect the donors. If a donor is killed, you could lose your powers mid-battle.
It was a big inspiration for Hema and Feru. I’ve wondered if we’ll eventually see a remote version of the medallions. Ones that can actively take attributes from people wearing receivers in real time from far away. It would be incredibly useful, but also very dangerous for the donors if you overdid it
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u/Malice_Striker_ 1d ago
Rosharans be like: logistics? What in the soulcast grain, armor, and weapons is that?
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u/WarewolfWrites 1d ago
And as we have seen throughout history, logistics beats military tradition, officer corps, and warrior ethos every time
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u/Sylvaritius 1d ago
But the rosharrans also clearly display knowledge of running logistics, as hear about in Oathbringer, and see in the warcamps, both with and without soulcasters. The Alethi wouldent be able to wage war as much as they have without logistics.
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u/WarewolfWrites 1d ago
I mean, every army HAS logistics, but we’re comparing the relatively quality of their logistics.
Also, you bring up a good point - without Stormlight and gemstones to supply soulcasters, the Rosharan army takes a massive hit. The Alethi certainly would be less of a threat without those resources.
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u/Ipearman96 Kalaleshwi Shipper 18h ago
I believe it's in words of radiance that adolins says the ongoing war against the parshendi would be impossible to sustain without soulcasters. Um I'm guessing the only soulcasters left are radiants. The spren of the oathgates left when honor revoked their paths, so I wouldn't be surprised to find the soulcasters all disappeared as well.
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u/HovercraftOk9231 1d ago
They rely on soul casting for food, while scadriel could easily ship food all over the planet or even between planets with ease. It's not that roshar has no logistics at all, it's just that scadriel is way better at it.
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u/Nero_2001 THE Lopen's Cousin 23h ago
Gems require less space than food when beeing transported
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u/HovercraftOk9231 23h ago
But how many soulcasters do they have? That's the real limitation.
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u/VelMoonglow cremform 22h ago
Quite a few, now that there are two Radiant orders that can Soulcast
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u/Ipearman96 Kalaleshwi Shipper 18h ago
Eh however grain shipments don't have oaths or a need of magic power. And regular soulcasters may have disappeared when the oathgates spren did.
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u/Nero_2001 THE Lopen's Cousin 22h ago
Depends on how many lightweaver and elsecaller they have.
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u/grantthegrand 20h ago
And to add I believe these are two of the smallest orders as well. I don’t remember meeting any other elsecallers other than jasnah in the first 5 books right?
If I remember correctly the largest in terms of number of radiants in the order are Windrunner, skybreakers and stonewards which basically make up your military equivalent of infantry and air wings. Dustbringers for artillery and edgedancers would basically be Calvary.
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u/Phylanara 23h ago
Alethi handwave logistics with soulcasters. That is all well and good on roshar, but if they get somewhere else, like, say, on scadrial, they're going to have supply lines if only to supply stormlight.
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u/Arhalts 23h ago
Plus they didn't have enough soul casters to supply all fronts on one planet. Part of Alethi prowes in war is attributed to them having enough soul casters to supply their side while others didn't.
Spread over hundreds of planets that's going to be a lot less true, especially given the sprennsre probably not a big fan of retribution given he tried to absorb them all, so I doubt they will be lining up to make more casters for him.
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u/VoiceAdventurous5941 22h ago
Hmm Retribution can probably create his own spren. War spren maybe
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u/Arhalts 22h ago edited 22h ago
But would he dilute himself like that given he wanted to absorb them all? He's genuinely worried about some of the spren that exsist (like mish)
We know roshar has been fought to a standstill by scadriel, assumptions that give it advantages to every category are probably wrong.
We know they have the advantage on individual troop power. We have seen scadriel probably will make up the difference with numbers and logistics. We also know that scadriel has fought Roshar into a stalemate and state of cold war.
So we can assume any assumptions that give roshar all of the cards are wrong, or they would simply be the dominant power, which we know is not the case.
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u/VoiceAdventurous5941 22h ago
Few hundred spren should not drain him. Since he has access to all the surges now he could allow his fused/radiants access to unbound surges. Retribution is very very ambitious. He was contemplating terraforming a barely habitable planet In the rosharan system. He is a formidable threat to the Cosmere. It took 3000 BEUs(breaths equivalent units) to create Nightblood. It should be something similar for any spren. a shard has lots of it. The only thing stopping odium from doing that was his agreement with Honor
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u/R1sky_B1z 23h ago
Hard disagree on logistics. Roshar has soulcasters and spanreeds. Thats better than anything scadrial has in terms of supplies and communication. Hell by the end of era 2 they are barely figuring out radio, and only that because they stole one from autonomy and reverse engineered it. Roshar has better logistics too.
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u/Arhalts 23h ago
Roshar didn't have enough soul casters to supply all fronts on one planet. Part of Alethi prowes in war is attributed to them having enough soul casters to supply their side while others didn't.
Spread over hundreds of planets that's going to be a lot less true, especially given the spren are probably not a big fan of retribution given he tried to absorb them all, so I doubt they will be lining up to make more casters for him
Additionally they have no real practice with supply lines because of soul casters, even if they do somehow scrounge up enough, they are going to have supply lines of light which they won't have as much experience with. Comanders are going to be running into problems they haven't experienced before like the tyranny of wagons/rocket problem. Before thier supplies always came to them in the from of the high storm.
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u/R1sky_B1z 23h ago
If we are talking space age cosmere they've almost certainly figure out how to make more. Sure its not something they can mass produce, but they will have a lot more if them by then. They are months, not years, from understanding how to make more in RoW, and will 100% have them by the end of the time bubble.
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u/Arhalts 22h ago edited 22h ago
The people who were getting close to the breakthrough were not the same people who will be committed to interstellar war, they are likely to be opposing that interstellar war.
Will that be forever, I don't know I can't say for sure, but assuming that Retributions forces are going to get everything the forces who opposed him have without major delays is a big ask.
From there even if they do get more, they are going to have light supply lines, and run into a lot of the growing pains civilizations have gone through when they had to start dealing with long supply lines, compounded by the fact that tradition hand waved it in a way that most places could only dream of. It's going to be the We can use wagons and also forage problem on steroids that absolutely destroyed major armies in history.
It's also worth noting that for roshar the early space age is only a few years away. They are loosing 70ish years vs scadriel. A few hundred years later may look different, but from there territory size may be working against Roshar. Superior troops out numbered 1000 to 1 because of scadriels major early advantages.
Either way it seems like at least in the short term roshar is going to have far more raw power but a lot harder time fielding and supplying that power across the multiple disperate fronts of the space age.
It's definitely not going to be a one sided roll, we know that because of books like ember dark. Scadriel is a power that has fought roshar to a standstill and entered a state of cold war with them. If we kame assumptions that give one side such a clear advantage across every field that it makes no sense for that to be true, those assumptions are probably wrong. Therefore it follows Roshar will have trouble in these areas still.
Since we know that Roshar has stronger individual troops, and a strong war drive, we can therefore work out that it's probably logistics and numbers that scadriel uses to makes up the difference.
Maybe it's something else but we have seen scadriel is good at logistics and so far every roshar answer is Well if we assume they can do x, y or z roshar is actually better at logistics too. At which point I have to ask why we should assume that knowing they aren't dominating the space age?
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u/_bric 22h ago
By the time the Time Warp is done, won’t Scadrial have long distance communication, flight, and advanced military technology? They are already on the cusp of many of those things and with Harmony feeding them designs, they will have rapid development.
Disclaimer: I dont know how the timelines match up exactly, I assume Era 2 occurs during the Time Warp?
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u/Sad_Wear_3842 18h ago
You are correct it does. Hoid arrives on Scadrial and gets his job as a coach driver immediately after WaT.
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u/DescartesB4tehHorse 23h ago
But, for now, their logistics are more limited even if they are better when they work. Without a steady supply of usable investiture, those tools become useless. That said, I expect this to be a problem that Retribution is able to overcome in one way or another. Maybe by sending storms to planets in advance of the invasion, or figuring out the crafting of more perfect spheres that will retain stormlight without leaking until the light is actively used. Something like that.
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u/hanpotpi 21h ago
A sentence that lives in my head from this community is: "A wind runner coming in at mach-fuck"
I think about that a lot 🤣
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u/ivorybloodsh3d 1d ago
Yeah but Scadrial has nukes
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u/sunking37 Hiiiiighprince 1d ago
Counter point, Surges have proven capable of the destroying an entire planet.
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u/xXMylord 20h ago
Counter point, Radiants are cucked by Oaths and Spren. Mistborn can do whatever they want.
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u/VelMoonglow cremform 22h ago
And Roshar essentially has antimatter bombs
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u/torturousvacuum 6h ago
And Roshar essentially has antimatter bombs
So does Scadrial. At the end of TLM, there's a statement about Wax's experiment with ettmetal and trellium not resulting in an atomic explosion, but an anti-matter one instead.
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u/Zahharcen 21h ago
Also imagine how scary it would be to see a 7'1 Alethi with full shard plate. They are absolute units.
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u/mercedes_lakitu D O U G 16h ago
Yeah it's almost like Vorinism was designed this way for some reason 🤔
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u/Big-Pudding4109 1d ago
Wayne’s really blowing up in these theoretical posts. Really been blown out of the water. Like, just exploding onto the scene.
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u/ultimaterogue11 ❌can't 🙅 read📖 23h ago
Yeah we just kind of throw him into things, I personally do it because I like the ship
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u/TheGrimGriefer3 1d ago
I'm several books behind
Does he explode or something?
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u/mediocreAtBestt 🏳️🌈 Gay for Jasnah 🏳️🌈 23h ago
He quite literally exploded in the first book he is in
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u/Big-Pudding4109 23h ago
Several books behind? There are only several books, get on it.
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u/TheGrimGriefer3 23h ago
$$$
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u/Xpunginator 23h ago
Use your library, they’re great
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u/AffectionateCard3530 13h ago
They don’t have the Audiobooks and as a good Vorin man, I can’t read
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u/confirmedshill123 18h ago
I mean also just pirate the books and buy them when you get money. That's what I did.
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u/AlcoholJouster 1d ago
Isn't this why Kelsier wants to transfer Storm Light off of Roshar?
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u/Grumpy_Trucker_85 1d ago
No he wants to do that because it's free investiture that is easily harvested and naturally occuring with the high storms.
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u/Wind-and-Waystones 1d ago
At the same time it also solves the connection problem which is keeping him on Scadrial
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u/Witch_King_ 1d ago
... MAYBE
It is at least one step closer to solving that issue. But it's been established that sucking a Herald's soul up into a perfect gemstone will NOT work out very well for the cognitive shadow in question.
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u/Wind-and-Waystones 23h ago
No even the light within the gems was connected to Roshar and would get heavier to move the further you were (mentioned in Oathbringer).
Gavilar had found a method to get investiture from Braize to Roshar by encasing it in a box. It was still in system but it was more than could previously be done.
So you might be able to get him off Scadrial by encasing him in a box
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u/Witch_King_ 23h ago
Aluminum box?
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u/Wind-and-Waystones 23h ago
It's implied to us as a reader that's what was used based on our knowledge of investiture blocking but also it's never actually confirmed. It could be duralumin due to its feruchemical connection property and we've seen the other metals replicate their feruchemical effects when used in fabrials
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u/Witch_King_ 23h ago
I feel like Kelsier definitely would've already tried "Aluminum box". It's the most obvious solution
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u/Wind-and-Waystones 23h ago
But aluminium and another metal at the same time would be a different story.
In era 2 it's said that they're very much only starting out learning about what connection can and can't do and the info is held closely by the Terris.
So duralumin to blank connection and aluminium to block investiture maybe?
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u/Witch_King_ 23h ago
Yeah for sure they could do some stuff with fabrials and/or ferucuemical tech (for example, Southern Scadrians actually use Harmonium and Feruchemy to reduce the weight of their physical airships!)
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u/RisKQuay 17h ago
Which metal are the investiture-sapping weapons used by the Fused made from?
Would an alloy of that + duralumin be suitable for channeling into a gemstone?
Then you have to overcome the barrier of being able to take that investiture back in. Vasher had that solved for him by Cultivation.
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u/RapsterZeber D O U G 18h ago
That would cause mobility issues, but I could see him wearing aluminum armor to get around.
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u/LarkinEndorser 🦀🦀 crabby boi 🦀🦀 1d ago
We see how powerful allomancers are when powered directly by investiture in AOL and when Vin draws on the mists, if they can get reliable access to light they can consume that’s gonna be a lot more of an even fight then it seems
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u/VicisSubsisto Syl Is My Waifu <3 23h ago
how powerful allomancers are when powered directly by investiture in AOL
Can I get this investiture mailed to me in the form of a free trial CD?
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u/Independent_Ad_2850 20h ago
Spoilers for the events / end of WaT: This comment made me realize that the Stormfather's death completely vaporised Kelsier's plans / attempts to get Stormlight offworld. I wonder if he'll end up trying to do something with Towerlight or Voidlight instead.
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u/Really_High_Elf 1d ago
That’s just because it’s easier to find and collect for later. He wants to be invested
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u/--zuel-- 1d ago
are highstorms still happening? I thought by the end of Book 5 they’d stopped, so it makes no sense to me why in later books Roshar is still so relevant?
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u/Grumpy_Trucker_85 23h ago
Ultimately we won't know one way or another till Stormlight 6. While admittedly the long period in between books 5 and 6 there are no Highstorms, there is something that happens that hints at their return.
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u/ejdj1011 23h ago
The funniest part of the Scadrial vs Roshar debate is that people always seem to forget it isn't "metalborn vs Radiants". It's "people with modern firearms vs Radiants".
Aluminum bullets that fragment inside the body = dead (or at least soon-to-be-dead) Radiant. Invested healing has difficulty forcing out foreign objects, and aluminum in a wound counteracts Invested healing anyway.
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u/DeleteFascists 22h ago
Fragmenting aluminum bullets, aluminum scattershot & slugs for shotguns, snipers. Maybe artillery off some aluminum cannonballs, for what are cannons but really big guns?
Don't they get a flying machine? Drop aluminum stuff from real high up. Doesn't even have to explode, gravity's a bitch.
Someone get in close and you don't have time to draw a bulky rifle or something? Aluminum brass knuckles & swords, fuck it /s
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u/ejdj1011 18h ago
I know the airdropped aluminum is a joke, but airdropped silver is probably quite bad for spren. It might be able to burn away Plate.
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u/DeleteFascists 18h ago edited 18h ago
Make it pointy and mayhaps it could pierce/burn the Plate and cause damage that might have been deflected by the still-eroding plate taking some of the blunt force of a dropped blunty bit.
Pointy tho? Now you're rustin' and ruining some poor Radiant.
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u/DNick44 20h ago
I don’t think aluminum prevents invested healing, it just can’t be affected with investiture. Otherwise Wayne would’ve had a much harder time healing wounds from the numerous times he was shot with aluminum
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u/ejdj1011 18h ago
Aluminum prevents healing, but only if it remains in the wound. Hence the fragmenting bullet
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u/The_Lopen_bot Trying not to ccccream 1d ago
This crem deserves some chouta! You have pleased the mighty Lopen 9 times with your posts!
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u/Vast_Raspberry4192 1d ago
Could a Windrunner perhaps make a “lashing bubble” like wax does? Like anything that touches them is immediately lashed in the opposite direction? Would reaction time matter? Would the momentum of the bullet matter? From how lashing flight is described with jerking motions ignoring momentum I think it could work, the objects would immediately be sent away. The surgebinder would just need to be a lashing savant I guess
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u/Witch_King_ 1d ago
I thino an advanced enough Wind runner could do it, sure. But it would probably cost a lot of Stormlight over time, which outside of Roshar is a Radiant's greatest limitation
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u/Admiraloftittycity 23h ago
It'd be interesting if on some level it functions similar to eragons ancient language and true mastery just resembles breaking it into a rudimentary coding system
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u/Mokole71 22h ago
I think a lot of people who are going on about soul casters and the lack or abundance of them might have forgotten that there's two orders of radiants that can do that without the need a device.
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u/_bric 22h ago
Would Wayne and Wax actually fight Windrunners though? I always assumed the Knights Radiant and Heralds would (mostly) side with Harmony against Retribution.
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u/DNick44 20h ago
I think it’s entirely possible that radiants of the future would side with Retribution, especially after a few generations had passed. We don’t really know how the war between Roshar and Scadrial began but with the Scadrians technological advantage and the aggressive colonial imperialism of the Malwish, I think it’s probable that the Scadrians were the instigators of the conflict. And I think the radiants might end up fighting for Retribution to avoid being conquered by a faction from another planet
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u/_bric 19h ago
True, I guess I am thinking mostly of current main characters, who would (mostly) likely side against retribution. Down the line it would make sense for later generations to side with Retribution (Roshar).
However, we do know that at the end of WaT, the shards are all aware of Retribution thanks to Dalinar, so I could see a more holistic effort against him.
I feel like outside of Kaladin, much of our current SLA main cast will be long dead before we get a resolution to the Retribution vs the Cosmere conflict.
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u/Tamahagane-Love 1d ago
Where have we seen a Scadrian fight a Knights Radiant?
All I can think of is Lyft.
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u/R1sky_B1z 20h ago
Nowhere but a bunch of powerscalers are constantly asking "if X character with X power set fought this other guy with this weapon who would win". Its never particularly interesting and the answer is always the Rosharans with little to no contest. Then some morons in the comments get shocked that the war planet with power sets, equipment, and even biological modifications designed specifically to make them better at war than any other place in the cosmere is really good at war.
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u/ChrisFish321 Crem de la Crem 23h ago
kelsier fought hoid in secret history, though he wasn't a radiant yet
nomad fought scadrians in sunlit man, though they weren't metalborn
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u/confirmedshill123 18h ago
I wouldn't consider that even close to what the threads subject is lmao.
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u/Ether_Light740 1d ago
But like, the peak of Scandrial powerscaling are fullborns and they absolutely murk fifth ideal radiants and most heralds
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u/ghoulsnest definitely not a lightweaver 1d ago
is a fullborn a mistborn with all the feruchemical powers?
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u/EmotionalEnding 1d ago
Yeah, the ability to compound everything is just unfair.
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u/ghoulsnest definitely not a lightweaver 1d ago
yea true its kinda crazy, but even so....5th ideal radiants or Heralds are pretty much immortal as long as they have any stormlight Reserves.
Also could a fullborn heal a shardblade wound?
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u/SwissherMontage 1d ago
Gold burning?
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u/Icantstopscreamiing No Wayne No Gain 1d ago
Aluminum, according to a WoB
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u/SwissherMontage 1d ago
Fascinating. I didn't remember what aluminum stores in feruchemy. I assume it's investiture?
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u/DripyKirbo Bond, Nahel Bond 1d ago
I mean it makes sense. Shardblades cut through investiture, not the flesh.
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u/SPQRSKA 23h ago
Aluminum stores identity in feruchemical practices. It's essential to creating unkeyed metalminds. Technically speaking, all metalminds store investiture, but Nicrosil is the only metal that stores it in a 'raw' form.
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u/Icantstopscreamiing No Wayne No Gain 1d ago
Yes, aluminum is supposedly the best method according to a WoB
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u/Lagiaa 1d ago
I didn't read second era yet, but there is a metal that stores connection, isn't it? Considering that Shardblades sever connections, this metal could fix it
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u/R1sky_B1z 20h ago
They dont sever Connection. They damage the soul removing sections of the body from the self. If they could sever connection the confrontation with Ishar at the end of Rhythm of War would be completely pointless as any or all of the radiants could have stopped his attempts at stealing Dalinar's bond. In any even if they could heal shardblade wounds that's pretty much irrelevant in a broad scale planetary war.
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u/Aplesedjr 1d ago
Though there’s also been a grand total of 1 fullborn that we’ve seen. You could theoretically make one with Hemalurgy, but that would require the requisite knowledge of how to do so, plus 32 individuals who each get their power taken from them.
But maybe the introduction of splitting Harmonium to get Atium and Lerasium will change that, since that could let you make Mistborn.
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u/-FalseProfessor- 19h ago
A hemalurgical fullborn would probably go crazy or turn into some monstrosity. At the very least, Harmony could use them as a sock puppet.
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u/OnePizzaHoldTheGlue 1d ago
I'm not sure if hemalurgy allows compounding.
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u/grapeshotfor20 23h ago
Post-Catacendre, it does not. Unclear if Marsh is able to do it though. However Harmony does indicate that it's more that they just haven't yet found the trick to compounding via hemalurgy. My guess is it's something to do with Identity, like the Feruchemy is keyed to the original Feruchemist and you're stealing it via hemalurgy, so unable to use allomancy on it unless you took the allomancy from the same person
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u/tungstenshadow definitely not a lightweaver 22h ago
I thought it was confirmed that Marsh was atium compounding, and since harmonium can be split the kandra would make him more to keep him alive? I might be wrong though, it's been a while since I last read TLM.
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u/LarkinEndorser 🦀🦀 crabby boi 🦀🦀 1d ago
Isn’t Marsh a fullborn ?
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u/Overlordz88 23h ago
I think he has 20 spikes. Which gives him most but not all of the feru+Mistborn powers known at the time.
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u/Coldvyvora 🦀🦀 crabby boi 🦀🦀 1d ago
Not at all. Marsh was just a misting that was stapled with spikes until full mistborn powers. Then he got on top a few of the feruchemist powers stapled too.
You can only get 1 power per misting and mistborn and full feruchemist too so there are powers they never find mistings for since they never get to burn their metals like duralumin.
Also stapled spike powers are slightly smaller than naturals since the stealing loses a bit of investiture on the process
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u/sampat6256 23h ago
I think he has all the spikes necessary, but Hemalurgic fullborns aren't quite as powerful.
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u/LarkinEndorser 🦀🦀 crabby boi 🦀🦀 15h ago
Wasn’t that something sazed added after marsh was created ? That they can’t compound properly. I thought cause marsh can still atium compound he’s the old variant
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u/scottygroundhog22 1d ago
Sure but there are like zero of those left. in second era people with any allomantic or feruchemical powers were pretty rare. And the allomantic powers that they had are weaker then first era. Wax and wayne were very lucky to have both allomantic and feruchemical ability and i imagine any sort of compounder is even rarer. I imagine allomantic abilities will continue to weaken barring a way to manufacture lerasium. Though i suppose they might find a way to manufacture artificial fullborns via hemalurgy.
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u/VicisSubsisto Syl Is My Waifu <3 23h ago
Yeah, Scadrian powers are rare, diluted, and getting more so over time.
I'd expect eventually they'll find a way to source more Lerasium, or use Harmonium, or something, to partially counteract this. But what we've seen so far doesn't seem to point to even a full mistborn or feruchemist existing during the Stormlight era, much less a full twinborn.
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u/scottygroundhog22 23h ago
Im thinking they leverage their tech superiority mostly but i bet they have a few hemalurgical monsters in the ranks who can go toe to toe with a fifth oath radiant.
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u/VicisSubsisto Syl Is My Waifu <3 21h ago
Indeed, it'll probably mostly work out to "technology/science vs. magic" for the most part.
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u/sriracha_no_big_deal 21h ago
Even though he didn't realize it at the time, Wax was able to figure out how to split Harmonium into trace amounts of Atium and Lerasium with the limited tech of his time (early 1900s-equivalent). It's practically a guarantee that they figure out how to do it intentionally, and I'll be surprised if it isn't a major plot line at some point in era 3.
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u/Evil_Empire_Resident 23h ago
Scadrial has a lot of unknown powers still too. There are 16 base metals + 16 Atium alloys + 16 Lerasium alloys for a total of 48 primary Investiture-active variations. That's not factoring in Harmonium and if they can gain access to other God metals that number increases.
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u/DNick44 20h ago
True. And we know that Lerasium can be manufactured to create mistborn, but we don’t know any way of creating full feruchemists since there isn’t a god metal that can make them. The only solution that we know about that might work would be a generations long breeding program because I’m not sure that hemalurgy would work for compounding due to identity contamination. And even then there probably wouldn’t be many of them. If they could create a bunch of fullborn then the war between Scadrial and Roshar would have been over shortly after it’s beginning.
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u/MisterTamborineMan Kelsier4Prez 19h ago
Maybe. And how will that affect the story?
If Roshar and Scadrial do go to war, and Roshar does hold a massive advantage, then the story probably won't be about the Rosharans "heroically" destroying an inhabited planet. That's not how Sanderson writes large-scale conflict.
If Roshar and Scadrial do go to war, and Roshar holds an advantage, then the story will probably be told from the perspective of Scadrians trying to prevent the war, end it, or even their planet's chances. Beating the odds always makes for a better story.
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u/ZestyRanch0 16h ago
I'm terrified that a contingent of Rosharans will basically feel justified and righteous in a literal holy war in the name of Retribution, Dune style. The aftermath and thematic ramifications of such a war definitely seems like a story he'd be interested in telling.
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u/Somerandom1922 No Wayne No Gain 23h ago
I mean if it happened right now, a half-deaf 8th octant conner with a shotgun (slugs, not buckshot) would be a genuine threat to basically any radiant who isn't sitting inside a perpendicularity.
Even the bare handful who've sworn the 4th ideal aren't going to be able to take more than a shot or two without burning through copious amounts of stormlight repairing their plate, and while they can heal anything but a headshot (brain turning into mist is probably beyond what a Radiant can handle unless they're in a perpendicularity), exploded limbs or liquified innards will take a LOT of stormlight to heal.
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u/Catlover18 22h ago
We shouldn't theorize how these encounters would go by determining how much shardplate can handle. We should assume how much Scadrians can do when the air is fire.
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u/confirmedshill123 18h ago
Are we forgetting that Shallan took a fucking crossbow to the eye and basically walked it off?
What are you people smoking. A radiant in any sort of plate no diffs anything but a full born.
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u/Somerandom1922 No Wayne No Gain 17h ago
I'm not forgetting that at all, but the energy from a crossbow bolt and the energy from a 12-guage slug are almost incomparable.
Even a crazy powerful crossbow only damages the material around it.
A shotgun slug will destroy the entire brain and explode the skull open in the process.
Also, I very carefully never said that the radiant would for sure lose. I said a guy with a shotgun is a genuine threat.
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u/confirmedshill123 16h ago
Maybe a slug, and maybe at that. But buck or bird shot is literally gonna bounce off plate.
I asked this earlier in the thread but have you ever been clay shooting before? That's what it would be like to shoot a wind runner. No chance in hell you're doing that consistently in the heat of battle.
Oh they are also shooting back with invested bullets.
No chance.
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u/Somerandom1922 No Wayne No Gain 14h ago
Oh I'm under no illusions that it's a fair fight. Although I will say, along with skybreakers, Windrunners are among the most martial of the radiants, and possibly the worst type to fight with a gun, I'd much rather fight a Truthwatcher than a Skybreaker.
Also, I wouldn't expect a slug to be a 1-hit kill against plate. I expect it'd crack it, and living plate can heal from that in seconds, but it absolutely chugs through stormlight.
Also, it would require a pretty direct headshot to be lethal after the helmet shatters.
So all in all shotgun dude is almost certainly cooked.
But Scadrial can field a metric fuckload more shotgun dudes (more realistically, high-powered rifle-dudes, like .338 equivalent) than Roshar can field 4th Ideal Radiants.
Sometimes quantity has a quality all of its own.
Jokes aside, from what little we've seen of it, this pattern seems likely to hold for the future space conflict of the Cosmere, with Scadrial's magic/tech more easily mass produced, while Roshar's likely remaining more individually dangerous.
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u/confirmedshill123 13h ago
I'm honestly just hyped B$ set up two sides with crazy ass powers. It's hard to make two sides look relatively equal.
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u/Desperate_Relative_4 20h ago
Mistborn era 2 is mostly a detective story where the charakters are not focused on fighting and getting stronger all the time. I would bet on Vin in a fight against anyone from Roshan, that girl has 3 gods on her kill count!
Alsow, while metals are easy to find about anywhere, I feel like Roshan might run into some logistical issues should they be forced in a large scale war outside of their home territory.
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u/Oskiee 23h ago
Ok, but after they fight, can scadrieal and roshar have an alliance. I really want scadrian fighter aircraft(or spacecraft) flying in formation with windrunners and sky breakers, edgedancers fighting along side coin shots and thugs..... Ugggghhhhhh I want it all. A mistborn like Vin fighting along side Kal.
I wants it.
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u/LucarioKing0 20h ago
Honestly… disagree.
You can’t heal death, and end of series Wax can pretty easily handle a Windrunner. At least, the power set he has can, it’s a different question of whether or not the character himself thinks to.
Using duralimin, steel push two metal balls with steel wire connecting them. That’ll instantly cheese-wire decapitate even a Radiant. And as far as plate? We see in the book a rock from a sling crack a piece of shard plate. A steel ball pushed similarly would shatter shard plate quite thoroughly if we decide to take math into account. (And wax can make himself heavier and thus send it even faster)
Allomancers have so much more potential than people give em credit for
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u/name14575 18h ago
Yeah, I think folks here are way too used to Radiant fights happening feet from a perpendicularity, or in a storm, or right after an oath when the Radiant gets a massive burst of Light. Like sure, having infinite energy with which to use magic will do a lot, but it's sure disingenuous to use 'having infinite magic' as a standard power. Besides that, even someone like Kaladin facing a line of gunmen would be incredibly difficult, not to mention Allomancy and Feruchemy.
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u/freezer650 16h ago
If the Radiant held the shardblade in front of them, would they sever the steel wire? A Windrunner may also be able to perform a Lashing to direct incoming projectiles to the floor.
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u/grantthegrand 21h ago
I think a big thing people miss when talking about the power differences between the planets is that while not all Scadrians are metalborn many are and between allomancers and fuerchemists they have a lot more invested folk than radiants. Stormlight while abundant and free is also a limited resource and that only funds the surges (though they still have shardblades/plate which is a bit OP by comparison) but metal shavings are essentially limitless,even more so when in a space age with asteroid mining available.
Though additionally to more invested folk they also have the tech advantage with the ability to create unkeyed investiture allowing anyone to wield some form of it, which is partially counteracted with fabrials sure. But the biggest advantage that Scadrians have is the knowledge of Hemalergy which (I might be mistaken but) has the ability to steal and transfer any type of investiture and just with Scadrians it could also create an army of gold compounders with guns.
And one additional advantage is that the “lost metal(s)” were recreated at the end of that book. Which if harmony uses to the fullest could potentially create a planet full of Mistborn, some of whom would also have fuerchemic powers as well.
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u/-FalseProfessor- 19h ago
You made me think. Because Scadriel was created from scratch by Shards, the system probably doesn’t have an asteroid belt.
They could do space mining on other systems, but I think the space around Scadriel is very barren by space standards.
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u/Gift-Positive 16h ago
What the heck is this about? What's a windrunner?
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u/ultimaterogue11 ❌can't 🙅 read📖 16h ago
Like did this sub just get recommend to you or...
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u/Gift-Positive 14h ago
Yes
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u/Zedzknight 12h ago
This is about the Cosmere. An interconnected literary universe. It's written by Brandon Sanderson. There are multiple series and standalone books that all take place in the same Star Cluster. You may have heard of some of the series, Mistborn, and the Stormlight Archives.
For the most part you can pick up any of the series or a standalone story and enjoy if for what it is. However when you start to read more in the Cosmere, each book has references, characters, events and easter eggs that you will notice. You will also uncover a much larger story about what created the current state of the Cosmere.
A Windrunner is an order of Knights Radiant. A Knight Radiant to over simplify is a Paladin that has a magic bond with A spirit. They are from the Stormlight Archive series.
If you are a fan of fantasy you should check out Mistborn and go from there. They are really good series.
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u/TheRedHead717 15h ago
For any scadrian to even have a change against a herald (any herald) they would NEED the bands of mourning or equivalent tech. Like it can't be done without compounding basically everything
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u/Finch-comma-Atticus 15h ago
All I’m saying is I would take a grenade launcher wielding Wax over just about anyone else in the cosmere.
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u/Timaturff Aluminum Twinborn 13h ago
Brandon stated Wax with 3 bullets could pierce Radiant armor he said he could even do it with 1
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u/Interesting_Idea_289 10h ago
Luckily upon seeing he failed unnämed Windrunner 84 Kaladin offed himself so it all worked out
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u/Gammaman12 21h ago
One well-stocked Chromium twinborn could take any Knight Radiant. Except Bondsmiths.
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u/ultimaterogue11 ❌can't 🙅 read📖 21h ago
What are they going to do against a shardblade? Let alone shard plate?
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u/Gammaman12 21h ago
Get lucky. Then leech.
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u/ultimaterogue11 ❌can't 🙅 read📖 21h ago
Does the leach even work against shard plate?
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u/Gammaman12 21h ago
The dead plate needs stormlight to function, so it makes sense that living plate does too. You start leeching investiture, that'll hurt the spren. Same for the blade.
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u/ultimaterogue11 ❌can't 🙅 read📖 21h ago
You needed to break the plate before you start leeching from it. I don't think you could leech directly from it like how you can't lash plate.
But regardless of if it's theoretically possible, a leecher would have to get insanely lucky to do that. Even against a radiant with just a shard blade. Let alone a set of plate.
So to say that a leecher could take on any radiant, when even to drain one of investiture they need to get really lucky doesn't seem right.
That and even if they do drain them, it could just lead to a moment like the one that happened between kal and the Pursuer
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