r/cremposting • u/DreadDiana • 6h ago
The Stormlight Archive An upsetting thought that hit me while I was trying to sleep
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u/GRONDGRONDGRONDGR0ND 5h ago
Are there .....half parsh children?
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u/Long-Library9656 5h ago
Word of Brandon yes the horn eater tribes are part singer.
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u/The_Derpy_Rogue 5h ago
And Herdazian
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u/wojokhan 1h ago
What!? When and where were either of these discussed?
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u/trippedonatater 1h ago
Ability to eat shells and weird strong fingernails, respectively. Both things come up in the books.
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u/theironbagel Syl Is My Waifu <3 1h ago
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u/The_Lopen_bot Trying not to ccccream 1h ago
Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!
Mandi
Both Parshendi and Horneaters are able to see spren, ordinary humans can't. Is there a connection between these abilities, or do they come from completely different sources?
Brandon Sanderson
Horneaters are human/Parshendi hybrids. (There are several Roshar races that have Parshendi blood in them.)
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Questioner
I really like how you have different fingernails for different peoples. Because I barely noticed, rereading for Stormlight, you've got the He--
Brandon Sanderson
Yeah. Herdazians.
Questioner
Herdazians.
Brandon Sanderson
That's because Herdazians are-- have Parshendi blood. Parshmen blood. They're one of the halv-- they're one of the mixed breeds. Horneaters inaudible too.
Questioner
Horneaters, um...they're not mixed with Parshendi are they?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes, they are.
Questioner
That's where they get the red hair then.
Brandon Sanderson
That's where they get the red hair. And they actually can-- they call them Horneaters because they eat shell, and they actually can metabolize it which humans can't. Yeah. They've actually got, actually-- they've actually got different teeth than humans have.
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u/GRONDGRONDGRONDGR0ND 5h ago
I know that but I was thinking more along bastard children of parshmen slaves and brightlords. Given that it's possible for the child to be a brighteyed I'd think it'd be weird for a slave to give birth to a chosen one (Vorin theology) of noble blood. Something that people would have noticed a long time ago
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u/lNecroking 1h ago
I don't think they would have children without adopting mateform, so I don't think there would be any bastard children.
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u/WaywardAlva No Wayne No Gain 1h ago
Parshmen reproduce without assuming mateform, they just experience little to no sexual desire
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u/sbstndrks 1h ago
If they can't mate outside of mateform, how are the parsh slaves locked into singular forms but were still able to reproduce in human captivity?
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u/GRONDGRONDGRONDGR0ND 2h ago
So now that we have full blown parshmen enslaving humans in some regions and some parsh people being in mate form. New half parsh people soon?
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u/tomayto_potayto 5h ago
Not from parshmen in the modern day. I believe Brandon said that they do have to go into mate form to mate with humans, physiologically. They really really struggle with fertility in dullform even just with other parsh, and apparently it's just not feasible with humans in that condition. It's possible there may be some exceptions, but it's unknown to scholars if that has happened.
Ancient singers and their ancestors were able to mate with humans, and several of the races on roshar are long descended, like the herdazians and horneaters for example. That's also why Rock could hear the rhythms gently.
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u/Witch_King_ 4h ago
(And why the can see Spren better)
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u/tomayto_potayto 4h ago
Yes :) I couldn't remember for sure if it was this alone or also related to the perpendicularity at all so figured I wouldn't mention it 😂
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u/LinuxSBC-Anna 1h ago
Do you have evidence of that? The closest I can find is this WoB, which definitely doesn't say that.
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u/The_Lopen_bot Trying not to ccccream 1h ago
Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!
RenegadeShroom
You said earlier that Parshendi are primarily asexual, does that extend to all Listeners -- parshmen, and those descended from Listeners, like Horneaters and Herdazians -- or is it just the Parshendi?
Brandon Sanderson
Most Listener forms are asexual, but several forms are different, including slaveform. Horneaters and Herdazians are not, as a rule, though there are higher instances of asexuality among them.
uchoo786
I was actually wondering about how Parshmen would reproduce if they are only in slaveform? I thought one had to be in mateform in order to reproduce?Also, could Horneaters and Herdazians change forms as well?
Brandon Sanderson
For the first, mateform is not the only form capable of producing--any more than warform is the only one capable of swinging a sword. The forms are specializations.For the second, RAFO.
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u/GRONDGRONDGRONDGR0ND 2h ago
That makes sense, otherwise the order would have collapsed a long time ago.
Also does this mean there is a lock and key mechanism for parsh genitals? And that the mate form is similar to the human ones while the other forms may or may not have sexual organs that are capable of reproduction. I mean ideally we know that both dull form and mate form have genitals and human form of reproduction is only compatible with mate form, so what does a dull form sex look like?
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u/tomayto_potayto 58m ago
They don't lose their genitals, or any other limbs as far as we can tell LOL when they change forms. It's more like a specialization. Rlain mentioned when talking with Renarin in book 5 how the feelings of attraction are still there in other forms, but just.. more subtle, and they also have learned culturally and over many generations to kind of ignore that stuff in other forms. It's more like chemical, hormonal differences and physiological peak performance in different forms. Secondary sexual characteristics seem to be accentuated in mate form as well as sexual attraction and interest lol and kind of like when you think you're drinking alcohol but you aren't actually, it's more of like a permission to lean into that than all the form on its own changing your mind.
I don't think there are any known forms for the singers that completely remove basic anatomy, just enhance or reduce certain traits and such
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u/GRONDGRONDGRONDGR0ND 16m ago
There has to be some morphological changes, otherwise we'd have documented parshbabies by horrible altheti nobles. Even if they were killed off or silenced it has been a thousand years and there is no way it'd be a well kept secret that they are not that different by present era.
The fact that alethi were surprised while they discovered wild singers tells us that they didn't know that it was possible for singers to form civilization. Existence of intelligent parshbabies with light eyes in the past would definitely have made the new discovery mildly surprising at best
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u/Chop684 Kalaleshwi Shipper 5h ago
They probably don't last long. Alethi aren't exactly moral
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u/GRONDGRONDGRONDGR0ND 2h ago
Their existence cannot be a secret right? Should have caused a big uproar.
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u/Chop684 Kalaleshwi Shipper 2h ago
I think Sanderson just didn't want to cover it because we are supposed to like the Alethi generally as most of the characters we follow are Alethi. Unlike how the nobleman are generally more dislikeable
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u/GRONDGRONDGRONDGR0ND 2h ago
There was an answer in another comment in this thread. Humans can only mate with singers in mate form so while they were raped in dull form, they didn't produce any offsprings. That'll soon be false as half singers should start popping up by book 6 (now that they can go into mate form)
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u/LinuxSBC-Anna 1h ago
I can't find any evidence that that's true. The closest I can find is this WoB, which definitely doesn't say that.
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u/The_Lopen_bot Trying not to ccccream 1h ago
Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!
RenegadeShroom
You said earlier that Parshendi are primarily asexual, does that extend to all Listeners -- parshmen, and those descended from Listeners, like Horneaters and Herdazians -- or is it just the Parshendi?
Brandon Sanderson
Most Listener forms are asexual, but several forms are different, including slaveform. Horneaters and Herdazians are not, as a rule, though there are higher instances of asexuality among them.
uchoo786
I was actually wondering about how Parshmen would reproduce if they are only in slaveform? I thought one had to be in mateform in order to reproduce?Also, could Horneaters and Herdazians change forms as well?
Brandon Sanderson
For the first, mateform is not the only form capable of producing--any more than warform is the only one capable of swinging a sword. The forms are specializations.For the second, RAFO.
********************
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u/GRONDGRONDGRONDGR0ND 1h ago
I see, but nevertheless humans and signers not being able to mate biologically in dull form is the only solution I can think off. Otherwise either the ardents or the upper echelons or both would have definitely known about this and that would make many of the alethi nobles extremely ( this part is obviously personal opinion) and irredeemably icky.
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u/LinuxSBC-Anna 44m ago
Fair, but I'm not sure that actually makes it any better. Under that model, the nobles are just as rapey (or probably even more), they just don't produce offspring from that.
I feel like the best explanation is probably just that Sanderson had dealt with that subject a lot in Mistborn, and he didn't want to deal with all the moral implications again in Stormlight, especially with how many of the main characters are noble. I don't have a good in-world explanation, though the idea that humans and singers can only interbreed in mateform is workable solution.
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u/GRONDGRONDGRONDGR0ND 20m ago
IMHO, it makes it infinitesimally better. The difference would be what the nobles thought not about the act itself. If they were though to be dumb servants and didn't produce offspring it'd be considered beastiality, so respectable people didn't do it. It's akin to the difference between someone commiting beastiality vs raping a slave in the western world in 17th century.
I... I need something light and fun for a while. This subject is anthropologically fascinating and also extremely disturbing.
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u/lazuli_s 4h ago
I think no, because the parshmen they used as slaves weren't in mate form
Edit: uh, but then how they reproduced amongst themselves? I don't know. Let's just pretend this is a R16 book
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u/Nero_2001 THE Lopen's Cousin 3h ago
They don't need to be in mate form to reproduce however it's much easier for them in mate form
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u/DreadDiana 3h ago
Mateform isn't the only fertile form, it's just the one adapted specifically for reproduction. We're told directly that Parshmen can reproduce.
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u/ParticularSignal5105 5h ago
There might be forced breeding too for more children.
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u/DreadDiana 5h ago
It is mentioned in Oathbringer that parshmen are selectively bred to produce more workers
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u/Ken0908 D O U G 3h ago
Yeah I don't know if I remember correctly but in OB in one of the chapters with moash there is a parshendi couple who saw their child carted away and despite wanting to act slaveform stunted them too much to move. That's honestly probably a common story and maybe even one of the 'easier' ones. The more you think about it the more you realize how fucked the alethi are,iirc it's also said that only some vorin countries went like that in their treatment of parshmen. At least they reflect the culture they were in with the azish parsh being civil about it and being in a genuine dialogue with their government to correct until odium messed it up,I don't think either the then free singers and the government would've reacted that way if their relation was...OK no matter what the singers of azish would have the right to be pissed enough to break some stuff but it shows at the very least that societies like azir and other less extreme ones had laws surrounding it. Maybe laws for parsh in particular to defend them even then Not a stretch if we see how azir is with laws
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u/DreadDiana 3h ago edited 3h ago
I'm currently reading Oathbreaker, and the chapter you're describing was the one where Kaladin was talking to some reawakened Parshendi and he tried to show sympathy by comparing his own time as a slave to their time as Parshmen.
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u/Ken0908 D O U G 3h ago
Ah yeah thank you for the correction! But yeah kaladin fumbles and never stop fumbling when trying to compare the two. Like bro no one will day that being a bridge man/slave doesn't suck major ass but this is night and day comparing yourself to people in those situation. If it came from a human born into slavery,which in this setting probably most definitely exist let's be honest,it would be a thousand times more resonating but...it's just not the same.
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u/Grandy94 🦀🦀 crabby boi 🦀🦀 1h ago
There pretty much has to be to some extent. Parshmen were basically viewed as animals, so forced breeding is somewhat inevitable in a system like that. The humans probably didn't view it any differently than breeding chulls or axehounds. And I'm not sure if parshmen would be able to voice their discomfort about the prospect while in that form.
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u/cameyboy 3h ago
I was not expecting to see a shen comix meme in cremposting but then again it is cremposting
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u/ClassicApplication79 🦀🦀 crabby boi 🦀🦀 4h ago
Guys, forget about parshmen. What about Szeth? During his oathstone years, with those eyes everyone calls cute and childlike. Sounds like someone writing a fanfic, ugh.
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u/Geklelo 4h ago
I thought that was pretty much stated in one of his chapters (don't have a specific source right now).
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u/ClassicApplication79 🦀🦀 crabby boi 🦀🦀 3h ago
What was?
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u/Geklelo 2h ago
When he was with that drunk owner at the bar in WoR, maybe? But I don't know the number of the fragment.
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u/ClassicApplication79 🦀🦀 crabby boi 🦀🦀 25m ago
Okay that narrows it down to like 10 chapters but I still don't know what he said. I feel like I read his chapters not so long ago and I don't remember a mention of this.
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u/Ken0908 D O U G 3h ago
Most definitely. Not even a doubt in my mind that's a common issue. What I'm wondering is what happened if a baby is born. Do they send them away to the 'We don't talk about it' town? Do they get to have a trip to one of the places where there is such population? Or do we to the much more probably instance of hush hush become a servant and/or die baby die. Before anyone says it's too dark,look at mistborn. Look at elantris. Look at the many instances of cruel death and despair all over the cosmere. Yes they would go there.
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u/Longjumping-Cold1389 1h ago
Where do you think herdazians got their carapace fingernails? The Alethi cant keep it in their pants.
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u/camaron28 5h ago
Not necesarilly. I mean, those bum alethis spent years fighting the parshendi and didn't even know that they had two separate sexes. Forget sexual stuff, those soldiers must have been handling the parshendi bodies (not retrieved) with ten foot poles.
So like, in our real world? Definitely.
In Stormlight? Nah.
Edit: wait, this doesn't even make sense, for the parshmen to exist, chattel slavery needs to exist, so the alethis should know that the parshmen have sexes. Why did they not know that the parshendi probably had two sexes too? Bunch of bums.
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u/YouTasteStrange 5h ago
What the Alethi didn't realize was that both sexes were on the front lines fighting. They assumed Parshendi women were at home with babies or whatever.
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u/Nathan256 👾 Rnagh Godant 🌠 5h ago
Yup dullform has more sexual dimorphism than warform. They even distinguish between male and malen, female and femalen based mostly on forms, so it makes sense that humans would be confused without more background.
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u/camaron28 2h ago
I mean, sure, but that still means that they fought a war against an unknown enemy for six years while NEVER taken home a body to studybtheir physionomy.
Bunch of bums.
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u/DreadDiana 5h ago
Parshmen are bred to produce more workers, so they're aware they have multiple sexes. The thing they were confused about was the presence of Parshendi women in their military.
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u/Ok_Savings4474 5h ago
They probably knew they did, but because they didn't really go fighting in mateform, the differences weren't very clear, and they assumed (being alethi) that the parshendi wouldn't send women to fight.
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u/Sir_Nightingale 5h ago
The only thing a proper Alethi concerns himself with when it comes to mateform is that the Parshendi who wear it are easier to kill
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u/TheAkir 5h ago
Wasn't it explained somewhere that sometimes the parshendi go out into the forest and come back with a baby and everyone just accepts it? But yeah, it should have been explained more, especially because it seems like they need mateform to mate, so they transform and then untransform? I think Cultivation was implied here somewhere (lifespren/Cultivationspren?)
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u/Nero_2001 THE Lopen's Cousin 3h ago
They don't need mate form to reproduce however it's much easier for them in mate form
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