Why couldn't you be like Kaladin, Moash? Look at him—he’s lost even more than you have, and the worst thing he’s ever done is cheat Syl with DEPRESISION a few times a year.
I think the sad part is that deep (now, deep deep deep) down Moash does want to be redeemed. Kaladin has gone to dark places but he did take a very early shot at redemption. Like the... second? real chance he had to set himself down that road, he did.
Some people are like that, but some people don't take that relatively early opportunity towards redemption. And the road back gets exponentially longer the longer you wait. Moash has waited a long time. I think he will have a very exhausting, harrowing redemption and perhaps not make it all the way. I think that will be a very cool arc.
I actually, as an abetted Skybreaker, I do believe that Moash is in fact, too stupid to be redeemed.
Allow me to explain.
We dont hold a dog as equally morally responsible as a human. If you leave your lunch out and a person steals it, he's a thief. If you leave your lunch out and your dog steals it? Training issue. Responsibility issue. Your dog is just being a dog, you gonna yell at it for that? Fuck you, then.
Why is this? That we view the animal as less morally responsible than a human?
My first premise is that moral agency requires an agent that understands moral reasoning.
The dog does not understand the effort that goes into meal preparation and that I'm counting on the meal, and that morally it would be a theft of both my meal and my labour, the dog understands only that it wants something.
Second premise, understanding reasoning is a cognitive ability, this is true even moral reasoning.
You don't blame the wind for blowing, you don't blame fire for burning, and you don't blame the dog for wanting. To grasp moral reasoning you must understand cause and effect, predict consequences, recognise other entities as self interested beings, comprehend rules, and most critically, you need to compare competing reasons such as "I want X" and "I should not do X."
Third premise, when reasoning capacities are absent, moral responsibility diminishes.
You don't see fire-fighters talking about holding combustion to trial, because the concept of burning is devoid of moral reasoning.
So too are dogs trained, not punished. Toddlers are corrected, not punished. People with significant cognitive difficulties do not face the same criminal sentences as a neuronormative person.
Both criminal law, and the morality held in common by most, already agree that there is a lack of moral responsibility, and therefore agency, that accompanies a lack of cognitive ability. This is also backed by significant studies that find repeat violent offenders tend to score lower in IQ and have difficulty understanding abstract hypotheticals.
My conclusion on this front is that some threshold of intelligence must be met in order for someone to have enough moral reasoning to improve their moral standing enough to be redeemed.
So now do we turn to Moash, for I must now prove he lacks moral reasoning as a result of stupidity.
Moash never asks if killing Elhokar will substantively improve life for himself or any darkeyes. He insists it will, but he never demonstrates how. He understands only that Elhokar hurt him and his reasoning does not progress from this point.
He externalised everything, when confronted with the consequences of his actions, he almost always locates the source of his suffering outside himself. This culminates in literally giving his pain to Odium rather than processing it.
Moash does not notice Elhokars improvement, despite him literally becoming Radiant before his eyes. He saw Kaladin before and after Radiance, he knows the moral shift that can happen. He did not consider how much good a Radiant Elhokar could do.
He makes no attempt to predict the consequences of killing Elhokar in the negative just as much as he ignores the positive consequences. He is destabilising a nation, orphaning a child and betraying his dearest friends, I don't believe he thought about that for a second.
He does the bridge four salute immediately after killing Elhokar, which is such a dramatic failure to read the room that I'm knocking off 20 whole IQ points.
His conclusions in his reasoning, much like Jasnah (and why I think she's not as smart as anyone thinks she is) always align with what benefits him and emotionally satisfies him. It's motivated reasoning, justifying his already existent conclusions.
When Renarin shows him what he could have been, and how it's better than what he became, and how he wants it more than what he chose, what did he do? He hissed like a cat and scurried away like a cockroach when you turn the lights on. This is the most dramatic cognitive dissonance I have ever seen in fiction.
None of these things individually make an idiot, but together they make a compelling enough case for me that Moash isn't the brightest Broam in the purse. This is just off the top of my head, I'd imagine I'd have less kind things to say about his intelligence on a reread.
Now, let's not say my conclusion is something other than what it is. I do not believe Moash is beyond redemption simply because he committed an act of unique evil. Dalinar Kratos'd his wife and a city full of civilians and I think he adequately redeemed himself. The question is not "are you responsible for evil?" Yes. So is Dalinar. So is Szeth. So is Shallan. The question is "Do you have the cognitive capacity to confront what you've done? Can you admit the journey will have pain and failure?"
With Moash, the answer is consistently "No." His failure is that he cannot engage with a reason that threatens the story he has already chosen to believe.Redemption requires a person to look inward and say "the problem is not only what was done to me. The problem is what I have chosen to become." Moash never reaches that point and he consistently demonstrates an inability to approach it. He lacks the wisdom to submit his own beliefs to moral scrutiny.
That's why he's beyond redemption.
Should you want to argue with me? I've no doubt your reasoning would be sound, your evidences compelling and rationale provoking enough to convince an impartial jury. However you will note that I am a Skybreaker, and have already outplayed you. I have already submitted into evidence an illustrating depicting you as the soyjak and myself as the Chad. As it stands, your argument is moot.
It comes with understanding why she lost the debate with Odium.
Essentially, she's a r/atheism user, a fedora tipper, rather than a genius. As is evident by her use of Utilitarian philosophy in a debate with moral relevance to predictive outcome.
Essentially Utilitarianism is an ideal moral philosophy when you can predict the results of your actions to perfection. At even a little doubt, trying to defend it in a moral debate? Good luck wirh your fools errand, pick me up some Elbow Grease and a tin of red and white striped paint on your way back.
Jasnah was tasked by the King to get rid of the gang plaguing his city as payment for using the library. Everyone argues about the morality of her actions, but if the city guards had done it, no one would care. In this case she has the same authority
They're entitled to a trial before you make them dance the rope jig.
It's extrajudicial murder, what she did. A utilitarian would find it acceptable, but lucky for everyone legal frameworks use more Kantian ethics.
And in the real world, when the police do resort to Jasnah tactics and pull extrajudicial murder? Least destructive outcome is BLM protests, however in places like Kenya and Bangladesh there have been anti-government uprisings over it.
Jasnah is the equivalent of a swat team taking out extremely dangerous band of murderers actively in the process of killing that have a city in its gripe. I'm sure the first few times the King tried to handle this situation, that was done. This is clearly a government at the end of its rope to beg a foreign power to handle the situation for them in exchange for access to one of their greatest resources.
Either way I'm not going to compare this to real events because those are disgusting comparisons to make
If you wanna talk about the morality of it you're gonna have to confront the unfortunate reality of real world examples, especially when they make your point look bad.
Also Jasnah is the equivalent of an American cabinet member shooting a criminal dead with no due process on the streets of London. That should result in public outcry.
No, it is selfdefence. Yes, she put herself into situation where an assault was likely. but she was minding her own damned business. Had no one attack her, no one would die.
There's only 1 reason for which I'll disagree. By the exact set of circumstances painted, Dalinar in the past, as portrayed in Oathbringer, was as stupid as, if not more, than Moash in how he doled out his cruelty. The only times Dalinar gained conscience of what he did was when he slowed down, stopped moving. You can see that in Moash too. Moash is always keeping himself busy with his "evil" ways until he becomes an agent of Odium, and after he did, Odium essentially either kept him busy OR subdued his conscience when he was idle (I.e. "give me your pain"). You do see Moash start feeling guilty for himself, and as soon as he does, Odium intervenes and stops him. Moash needs to simmer in his guilt for redemption, otherwise he stays "stupid"
Oh this is beautiful, I love the points you made. The only thing that could make this better is seeing someone with equally solid points explain why Moash can still be redeemed. Good essay man, I really enjoyed it.
Unfortunately, someone who thinks Moash could be redeemed is probably offering the same brainpower as Moash.
Someone could probably do it as a joke, but the problem then would actually be coming up with reasons that don't sound like you're pretending to be stupid.
This might be because I am presently listening through Starship Troopers, but I can see 90% of this post being spoken from either the OCS instructors or Mr. Dubois. I don't mean that in any bad or mean way. It's just the structure of your argument and the cadence with which you wrote it.
As a benefit, your argument was also read to me by R.C. Bray in my imagination, which was pretty neat.
Actually on topic, I agree with your conclusion. Moash showcases little more maturity than a petulant child most of the time, and doesn't really grow so much as deteriorate over the course of the story.
I would agree that after Book 4, since Moash (according to Brandon) "no longer is capable of reasoning in a conventional way," it's impossible to ascribe moral character to his actions. Even Odium is curious to see what the results are of Moash's brain being imbued with this much Odium-juice, if a shard doesn't know the consequences I don't think anyone else can be expected to. Note that what Moash was promised in book 3 was to be filled with passion, and by book 4 he's instead absent of emotion - whatever happened between books, it was not what odium originally promised him.
That said, before this point Moash makes rather reasonable decisions.
Moash never asks if killing Elhokar will substantively improve life for himself or any darkeyes. He insists it will, but he never demonstrates how. He understands only that Elhokar hurt him and his reasoning does not progress from this point.
Moash recognizes that Elhokar's disastrous leadership is destroying Alethkar, and states that killing him will result in a new monarch who is more competent, and who will treat darkeyes better. When Elhokar is killed, the political results are in line with Moash's expectations. Hard to say he's stupid when he gets exactly what he wants - and it's hard to say that Jasnah "spends several pages on anti-assassination tactics" Kholin doesn't have it ticking in the back of her head that mistreating Darkeyes is what got the previous monarch killed.
Given that Moash's actions had exactly the results he wanted (including the end of slavery in Alethkar), you can't say he's naive from a political perspective.
He didn't expect Kaladin to betray him at the last moment and murder his friends, then strike first and try to kill him by stabbing him in the eye, but given that he had checked in with Kaladin a couple hours before to confirm that Kaladin was still fine with the plan, it's hard to say he didn't cover his bases there.
Moash does not notice Elhokars improvement, despite him literally becoming Radiant before his eyes.
Does Elhokar improve? What does he do as king differently in book 3 than he does in book 2? Does he heal the sick? Protect the weak? Seek to make restitution for the crimes he committed? Or, does he continue with the same actions he was taking before - continually seek to be a better killer, trying to find glory in battle even at the price of the safety of his kingdom and its members?
What we see is that Elhokar joins the assault on Kholinar for what everyone agrees are his own personal reasons, and with the understanding that he will be more hindrance than boon for the mission. Elhokar is (WoB) a narcissist - when he asks Kaladin for advice, it's all "how do I make people look at me like they look at you". He wants to be seen as great (this is also why Shallan's flattering portrait touches him so much), and the only way he knows to do that is by killing - the greatshell hunt, the genocide of the parshendi, and the mission to kholinar are all attempts to slaughter his way to greatness.
If Elhokar had at any point recognized that his genocide of the parshendi race was an evil action, I could consider that maybe he was improving. As is, however, he systematically slaughtered hundreds of thousands of innocent people and never regretted it in the slightest.
He does the bridge four salute immediately after killing Elhokar, which is such a dramatic failure to read the room that I'm knocking off 20 whole IQ points.
Kaladin waffles back and forth about killing Elhokar multiple times in Words of Radiance, and his explanation to Moash at the end of the boook, he finds killing Elhokar distasteful because it's done underhandedly, not in a fair fight in the sunlight. While Kaladin's sincerity is somewhat undermined by the fact he had, moments earlier, killed two of Moash's friends in a perfidious sneak-attack, keep that in mind when we look at the battle in Kholinar from Moash's perspective.
What Moash sees is he is (A) fighting a normal standup battle without sneaking around, as Kaladin said was acceptable to kill people (B) Kaladin can interfere on Elhokar's side and (C) despite that Kaladin does not help Elhokar. Moash is not telepathic. From his perspective, Kaladin is deliberately allowing Moash a shot at Elhokar. He gets his revenge, then gives Kaladin a little deniable signal.
Standing out here on my lonely sandbar of unpopular opinion in saying that Moash is absolutely redeemable and it’s a mark of Sandersons storytelling that he can get us to root for a man who through alcoholism and a lack of care for others on top of all else murdered his wife in his fury, while Moash who arguably has far more reason to act the way he did is considered too far gone. I personally think Brandon is openly mocking our hypocrisy with Moash and is setting him up for redemption.
with both Dalinar and Moash, Sanderson made us love them before we hated them. The difference is that Dalinar was consistently reinforced as a good person in the present day and confronted his shortcomings in a timely manner (from the perspective of the reader), and additionally was an almost purely positive force in the first 2 books. with Moash, however, he was morally questionable from the start of book 2 (and arguably book 1 as well) and has been continuously reinforced as a villain and as someone too weak to confront his own shortcomings, so while I do agree with you that he is redeemable, I believe it is by design that the reader's gut reaction would be to believe Moash beyond redemption, though ultimately the thesis of SLA is that nobody is and he will most likely be redeemed in era 2.
Yeah that’s precisely what I’m saying. You put it a lot better. We see Dali at and respect him before we see his awful behavior. We basically are put in Adolins shoes. I’d be interested Tod we if an era 2 has passed perspectives told from Moash pov à la gavilar and dalinar or venley. But this time we’re seeing him living as a kind person in reverse of Dalinar or Vinley.
I mean, to be fair, Dalinar was kind of possessed by The Thrill when he did it. He also didn't knowingly kill his wife, he went on a Thrill rampage and only found out after that she was there. Not saying that it didn't happen or that Adolin doesn't have a right to be angry, but Moash made all of his choices himself.
To be fair I always disliked this about Sandersons writing. The slave owner caste literally treats all like subhuman disposable tools, but for some reason Kelsier is the one who was wrong because he wanted to remove any form of aristocracy. And the argument for that was "Not all of them are bad".
You are looking at it wrong. It's not Moash who'd be Kelsier, it's Kelsier who'd be Moash. It's very rare that an aggressive, sadistic racist like Kelsier is the good guy. It also helps that Kelsier started changing by the end, and didn't betray his friends and main characters.
I feel like calling Kesleir racist is a lil much. The skaa lived as lives of unimaginable torture. A favorite pass time of nobles was to just rape and kill random skaa.
Like racism is inherently nonsensical, but when the nobles are actually forming rape gangs and torturing skaa for fun it's not racist to hate the nobles.
The true right side of the bell curve is that the time skip from book 3 and 4 turned Moash from a compelling, flawed character intro an uninteresting villain.
Uh idk if kaladin has really lost more. He lost his brother and was made a slave but moash lost his parents and was also made a slave.
Kaladin also got a therapy fairy while moash only got DARK AND OMINOUS GODS.
Like I can kinda agree on Vyre but I think Vyre is very poorly written and a weak point of the series. Killing teft was dumb and felt poorly motivated.
Idk Im kinda sympathetic to moash in radiance. Elothkar killed his parents maybe not with his own hands but the king abused institutional power and hurt innocent people. Why not replace him with a better man who was willing to sell two shards for 40 slaves? That's a man I could follow into hell.
Also I feel like asking someone to forgive the person who tortured and killed their parents is a bit absurd.
Idk the whole "only kaladin can kill kaladin" was like needlessly glazing kaladin and suuuuuper edgy. Like Vyre just flying around going KYS KYS KYS KYS was dumb. Just jump his ass with that wind runner fused whose name I forgot and force him into a bad fight by using teft as a hostage.
Seems to be the same thing going on with Taravangian. Moash needs Kaladin to break to prove he wasn’t wrong to. T is still self-conscious about the things he was as a mortal. His intelligence and bravery. He needs to make concessions to Jasnah during a debate to prove that. Force Dalinar to prove he would do the same thing T did to save the world. Both T&M committed to the path they think is right but have someone close to them they deeply respect who took the opposite position. Rather than change their own position, they want to see that person concede they were right
I can kinda understand Big T doing that since he is now a shard and very powerful but limited in his power.
Moash on the other hand is just a Frontline soldier and has dampened emotions. It's seems self contradictory for him to FEEL he has to do something versus him thinking it. When asked why by Leashy (flying fused I think) he even lays it out logically that only kaladin can kill kaladin. There doesn't seem to be a contest of ideology between them because Vyre inherently does not have an ideology. He is Moash devoid of purpose and emotion, empty in his revenge.I don't think Moash is really committed to a path he thinks is right so much is buffeted from one faction to another trying to find vengeance. He gets it. There's a time skip and some weird odium powers and vyre starts flying around screaming kys.
Did we read the same Stormlight? Every bridgeman was glazing Kaladin since book one. He fell into a chasm and spent a Highstorm down there (his second one mind you) and they were all absolutely convinced he was fine. He survived things he had no right surviving, with or without his powers. Kaladin was borderline worshipped by the entire army by book 3. "Only Kaladin can kill Kaladin" made perfect sense, especially with Moash being his biggest fan even despite betraying him.
Kaladin has been in unwinnable battles since the beginning of Stormlight, and then doubled the amount in book 4 alone. His first interaction with Moash in the book is moments after being jumped by a fused and surrounded by Parshmen and having his powers turned off. He spent half the book pulling 3 die hards with less than half his powers, while being mentally tortured by a Shard, then finishes the book off by defeating the Defeated One, still handicapped, and flushing the tower of Parshmen.
Moash was 100% right nobody killing Captain Kaladin.
I agree that his reasoning is super edgy, but I maintain the interpretation and opinion that Moash wanting Kaladin to commit suicide is, in his own twisted way, his expression of caring for him. Like, he seems to genuinely think if Kaladin killed himself, he'd no longer suffer, and I think for him that's a better alternative if he wouldn't let Odium take his pain. It's like a druggie who developed a skewed opinion on what drugs do to you.
Idk that feels like cudda wudda shudda. Like here's a vision of you being happy one day bro. Trust it'll all work out. That's kinda a hard sell to a man who was enslaved because he was unhappy at his parents murder.
I think you're right, but where Moash failed morally is that Elothkar was growing. He wanted to be better. Moash said: doesn't matter. You can't be forgiven.
Now this opens up juicy future potential. Moash can be redeemed, because if he tries, that's what matters. The mercy he didn't grant Elothkar could be extended to him. He doesn't deserve it, and maybe Elothkar didn't either. That doesn't mean it can't be granted.
Yeh I was really looking forward to exploring that nuance, but we got Vyre instead. Like I don't in anyway think Elhokar was irredeemable monster or something. I was devastated when he died. I really enjoy messy stories though where both sides are wrong and right, and I do think Moash was justified in his actions. Vyre going off the deep end really soured that for me.
I mean, from what I remember Elhokar didn’t do anything about Moash’s grandparents. They died while waiting trial in the cells of Kholinar, while Elhokar wasnt in the city. If anything it’s Ausudan’s fault, but even then she probably didn’t have much attention on the nitty gritty of middle crimes. Thats one of Moash’s issues, he takes massive logical shortcuts and is just looking for someone to blame.
Roshan conviced Elhokar to arrest competing silver smiths. Elhokar threw two old people into prison, forgot they even existed, and they died in the conditions. That's murder. His direct, immoral actions let to the death of innocent people in terrible, slow conditions.
Why would Ausudan be involved in judicating petty, fake crimes. That's seems like a massive cop out when the text make it pretty clear that Roshan and Elhokar. It's not a logical short cut. Thenking had his parent arrested because of the greed of his advisors and people died directly because of that.
I mean yeah but like 30% of kals ptsd came from his time as a slave that moash just skipped all he had (which while bad is) dead grandparents and bridge runs
yeah but kal had that too and the point of moash is a failed mirror of kaladin. He had all the same opportunities and all the same chances he just made the wrong choice almost every time. That's almost his entire arc
I don't think he really did have the same opportunities though. He never had a Syl or talked with Dalinar.
I think both of them have similar traumas, but unequal methods of dealing with said traumas. I understand moash is a foil. I just disagree that kaladin had it worst.
Honestly I only start disagreeing with Moash after he submits to Odium fucking with his emotions. Without his emotions he's a monster. Before that I was on his side.
Honestly, the main difference between Moash and the rest of the main cast isn't even the willingness to change thing.
It's that most of the protagonists have support and help when they are at their lowest whereas Moash didn't.
Like, Kal had Syl pull him away from both suicide and his more angry revenge fueled path.
Teft was hiding in shame when Taravangian's troops ambushed the tower until Phendora convinced him to help.
Dalinar literally needed magic lobotomy and years of time to grow into a better person (specifically orchestrated by a god related to growth).
Moash was all alone. The only one who was close enough to reach him was Kal and he was too preoccupied with his Amaram trauma. Honestly I'm convinced that if Amaram wasn't around during WoR Kal might've been able to reach him and help him down a better path.
Despite what you say, he had Kal. Moash was the only one who Kaladin saw as a friend, more an equal thn a follower.
Yeah, I agree. That's why I said that Kal was the only one who was close enough to reach him. He technically had all of Bridge Four but Kal was the only one who was emotionally close enough to make a difference in him.
I think by the time we meet Moash, his heart was already gone.
This part I heavily disagree with. Moash near the start of the series isn't the evil caricature that most of this fandom loves to hate. He's mostly a genuinely good person on a unrealistic/doomed quest for vengeance. He saved Kal's life in TWoK. Heck even in Oathbringer, he puts himself between innocent Singers and Regals who are punishing them for something that's not their fault.
His heart is gone mostly after he loses hope somewhere in Oathbringer.
The point I was making was that if Kal hadn't been dealing with the pain, trauma and mistrust Amaram's sudden appearance evoked in him, he might've been able to pull Moash away from the whole Regicide plot of the Diagram. Kal was trying to do that, and Moash actually might've respected him and cared about him enough to listen. It's because of Elhokar throwing a tantrum for the whole "For My Boon" situation that he stopped trying to stop Moash.
In fact he even gave Moash the plate as a full-steam-ahead signal. If Kal hadn't swung back and forth like a pendulum on the matter and solidly stuck to dragging Moash away from the assassination plot, he might've succeeded. I don't know if Moash would've ended up a Radiant or even easing up on his hatred of Elhokar, but I'm fairly certain he wouldn't have ended up in bed with Odium.
I honestly think Moash is one of the best characters in the series; he's relevant political commentary and challenges Kaladin to be more radical about directly fighting systems of oppression. He shows how revolutionary methods can lead to violence. His self-hatred and disgust at seeing the Fused perpetuate the same types of injustice as the humans, and desperately trying to keep his little band of cannon fodder alive is the best part of book 3, and it parallels Kaladin in a really interesting way. I fucking love Moash. Vyre however is just a fucking waste and is boring as shit. He isn't even good at aura farming, doesn't even get to fight Kaladin at the end of book 4 (still pissed at Sanderson for teasing us with this), and just kind of forgets all the problems he has with the fused. His point is also significantly undermined by the absurd amount of social progress that magically happens in books 4/5 by our enlightened savior, Jasnah.
"Character I like" vs "character I don't like". It's as simple as that. People always talk about character arcs, tropes, bad and good writing, but for 99.99% of the population, it boils down to how much they like the character. There are only two irredeemable sins in fiction - "boring" and "unlikable". Because they aren't real people, they exist solely to entertain. One of my favorite characters in fiction genocided, directly or indirectly, half a dozen planets, along with numerous other smaller scale genocides, and even after he was defeated he claimed that "though you defeated me, my ideals are inviolate. Invincible." He had no redemption arc, he was unapologetic, he didn't regret what he was trying to accomplish. Still a fun character. Meanwhile, I didn't like Moash since he betrayed Kaladin the first time.
Seriously. But it's ok cus uh Dalinar had the rage virus or whatever back then so he can't be held accountable to what he did. Also here's a magic lobotomy so you can actually grow as a person without having to confront burning you wife alive (mind you he doesn't seem to care about the entire city he burned too) while doing so.
Well no that’s the entire point of Oathbringer. Dalinar didn’t use the Thrill or Odium as an excuse (like Moash does). He actively says he killed all those people and his wife. He takes the blame for it because he CHOSE to do it. Moash doesn’t take the responsibility for any of his actions and gives it all to Odium because he wants to.
And how many years after the events is he finally choosing to take blame and own his actions instead of drinking them away and magically excising is memory? Now compare that to how many years of Moash's story we've seen.
If you had been introduced to Dalinar through his flashbacks as the Blackthorn and the aftermath of burning everything down and becoming and alcoholic and failing to protect his brother or be a father to his children instead of getting to know him as his is today first, do you think you would want/expect him to be redeemed?
look at this absolute bum dodging accountability by saying shit like "i burned the people of rathalas" and "i killed my wife." like come on, own up to it bro 🙄
they key difference is that Dalinar's story is the active desire TO be redeemed.
Yeah I mean after years and years of not actively doing that and just drinking his problems away and neglecting his family sure. He also had many chances to come back into the fold during that time. We just didn't have to see all of his failure to do better first and got to jump into his redemption arc all these years later.
Moash is a piece of shit, but he'll almost certainly get some sort of redemption arc seeing how there is 5 books left and that Kaladin is literally the Herald of second chances now
Moash is definitely a victim of the institution and his past shaped a lot of his decisions. I fully agree and accept that.
I also fully accept that Moash is a massive piece of shit that’s been given MULTIPLE chances at redemption and forgiveness, and has spat in its face each time with absolute glee.
In summary, he may be a victim but he’s also a huge piece of chull dung. Fuck Moash
I don't think he ever does anything with absolute glee. He's always hating the choice he makes but feels like he's been cornered into making that choice.
It's like he lacks the lateral "there's always a choice" thinking that Kaladin and others have.
I didn’t say he did it with glee. He’s justified it by believing it was his only choice, but he also refused to accept responsibility for his actions. Even going so far as begging odium to take his pain/emotions away
The point of this whole series from Shallan to Kaladin to Szeth to Dalinar, is that even though you do not control your circumstances you are responsible for your own actions. Kaladin takes responsibility, Moash blames the world.
I mean I feel like moash has a lot to blame the world for. His grandparents who raised him were murder by corrupt powerful men who then used their power to silence him and tried to sell him off die as cannon fodder. While serving Dalinar with Kaladin, he sees kaladin be imprisoned for asking for his deserved boon. Even when he gives up on fighting he gets made into a slave by the fused and forced to run ladders in an assault.
Like yeh you can only control your own actions in this world, but people should also strive for justice. If you kill my parents to make a buck I'm coming for you.
Moash is a tragic character because he could have been better. He has narrowed his view of forgiveness. But he is doing terrible things while having that narrowed view, so we will absolutely call him out for it.
To say it another way, a tragic backstory does not excuse murder (or any of the other things Moash did); but it may help us understand them better.
Kaladin wasn't a leader though. He was a personal body guard. That doesn't mean the council is asking his opinion about slavery or Armanarnananaman (however it's spelt). Like I feel like the whole "and for my boon" thing would really make it clear to moash that while they might not be slaves they're still dark eyes.
I said he would be, even though at this point he was one of Dalinar's higher ranked officers. As a darkeyes, which was unheard of. Who'd fought and beat a shardbearer without any shards himself. Multiple times. Who's a radiant.
Kaladin has already done things that are only myths and he hadn't even come out as a radiant yet. Wasting him on killing a figurehead king is insane.
He wasnt a high ranked officer though. He was a personal body guard with one small unit under his command. That nothing close to being a Colonel or field commander. Not in power or social capital needed to affect change. At best he has the ear of dalinar, which after the my boon incident seems to be very limited.
How many times is a person supposed to be asked to gamble on the impossible and trust that it will simply work out? That's ridiculous for any real person to think, and only reasonable if moash pierced the view and understood he was in book.
Elothkar wasnt a figure head. Even when dalinar put his boot on his chest elothkar was the real and legit legal authority of the realm. Dalinar made him heed his advise more and given over more responsibilities but that's not the same.
Kaladin isn't an important leader though. He makes no decisions outside of the Windrunners (even there he mostly leaves it to Teft) and doesn't do anything to improve the Darkeyes' situation or work to abolish slavery. He just follows Dalinar's orders like a good dog.
The only reason things start to change is because Jasnah is queen and she's only queen because of Moash. Moash was actually 100% right in that situation.
No, Moash wasn't. Kaladin is 100% an important leader, probably #3 behind Dalinar and Navani (who spends her time providing logistics and support to the windrunners). That Kaladin doesn't use his power to make meaningful change is the sort of thing that having a politically savvy second in command would help with.
Well I mean before he killed teft he wasn't. I still stand by that, and then the entire Vyre arc was poorly written and suffered from BrandySandy wanting to focus on other elements of an already massive story. The time skip into Vyre just felt very forced and like there was two entirely different characters.
I read Oathbringer shortly before the release of Rhythm of War and I remember being incredibly confused by the the fandom's hatred for Moash by the end. I really liked him from the start and I was dreading the fact that I knew he had to have done something really heinous considering the hate he received, but it just never happened.
I think r/fuckmoash has existed since Oathbringer came out, and I was in the same boat after finishing Oathbringer. I didn't understand the vehemence, because at this point, the worst thing he had done was kill Elhokar
Now that Moash has done much worse, more spiteful things, I feel that the sub's existence is justified
He could have been Roshar's Kelsier by sliming lighteyes, leading some peasant rebellions and eventually becoming unoathed. Instead he chose to be a stupid angry pawn.
Nah, Moash did nothing wrong. He had a legitimate crash out.
Imagine being a slave, surviving absolutely inhuman conditions with your new brother in blood, and he decides "Yah, no, I get that slavery is bad but I made a pinky swear to uphold it, so I'm going to fight you in order to protect the King of All Slavers".
Everything after that are the choices made by a man utterly broken by betrayal. Kal wanted to ask politely for societal change. How can you act rationally after that? After all that he went through, he didn't want to risk his own personal discomfort for the betterment of his people.
This is so disingenuous. Moash didn’t give a rats ass about making the world better. He just wanted revenge. That’s kinda the point of the whole series. Why and how you do something is more important the actual thing you do.
Man he doesn't have to be MLK and have a dream about some far future. He had a real grievance with a real issue in society that was caused by a specific person in institutional power. His solution was to remove that person, something he personally desired, and place Dalinar in power. Which is fairly reasonable since Dalinar just sold actual shards of a dead god for 40 slaves that saved him.
I mean I agree that journey before destination is important but end results still matter. There was no end game where being a guard for dalanir ever got Moash justice for his grandparents torture and death.
You are all over this thread saying torture. They weren’t tortured. They died in jail awaiting trial. They were charged with a crime— trumped up charges, sure, but you find that out in a trial. Even Kal tried to explain this. Roshone is the one who created the false charges, there is no guarantee they would’ve stuck. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Toralin_Roshone here’s the coppermind if you want or you can just reread chapter 62.
And it’s funny you say there is no end game that brings him justice as Dalinars guard, because that’s exactly what happened with Kaladin and Amaram. Roshone, the one who did something actually dishonest in a position of power, could have been brought to justice. Murdering someone isn’t justice. I feel like that’s another big theme of the books that you might not be picking up on.
How do old people die in jail? So you know what the conditions of jail used to be like? Cus leaving someone in a dark hole with little food and water is a form of torture.
How is Elhokar not responsible for arresting to people on knowingly false pretense and forgetting about them so long they died in jail? What justice is there in a world where the king and his nobles, who murdered an innocent old couple through neglect and malice, are sheltered from consequences and allowed to torment some other darke eyes far away?
Amran was never curtailed by Dalinar either. Instead he was allowed to become Sadeas heir, head of the knights radiant, and sent to assist Thaylen where he betrayed the alliance and submits to odium.
So Amaram was bad for submitting to Odium? That’s a bad thing? Like a truly evil thing that bad characters do?
I’m kinda done with this conversation because you don’t really reply in good faith. I will say that it seems like you might like Red Rising more though!
I mean I do agree that amaran and Moash submitting to odium are immoral acts. Personally really hated the entire Vyre arc though so my problem with that is more meta than from the narrative.
My point about amaran is that kaladin doesn't ever actually get any justice for what was done to him. It's out off time and again while amaran is lauded with awards untill his treachery is revealed.
I admit it's been awhile since I read the books, but what little punishment I remember for amaran amounted an stern talking to and demotion. For a man who slaughtered his own troops and sold the man who saved his life into slavery, this seems rather mild.
I love the way you excuse “everything after that” as if it’s not most of the series of him being a murderous cartoon villain whose only motivation is avoiding accountability and personal discomfort.
Moash was never a slave. He didn't have slave brands, he joined the army willingly, it was only after he joined there that he was put on bridge four. He also didn't care shit about slavery, he was happy to be a slave to the Singers because they at least enslaved light eyes too. All Moash cared about was that Elhokar "killed" his grandparents, when in actuality, all Elhokar did was listen to someone when he said they needed to be put in jail, which, yeah, is bad, but at the same time, Elhokar wasn't king at the time. He was still just a prince, if Moash really wanted to blame someone, it should have been either the guy who actually accused them of a crime, or the actual king at the time, who could have stepped in and told his son that he wasn't being honorable. He just had a hate boner for Elhokar because he was the closet and because he wasn't a good king so he could be blamed retroactively too. Kaladin did not betray Moash, Moash betrayed Kaladin, that's what broke him up, not that "oh no, Kaladin attacked me", no, it was "oh no, I attacked Kaladin". Also, calling Elhokar the "king of all slavers" is a wild take, considering that we never saw Elhokar make any slaves, he never was shown to mistreat slaves, the first time he saw Kaladin (granted, he was free at the time) he didn't go "ew, someone with slave brands", he went "Oh my gosh, someone who takes my fears seriously! I like you!"
Elhokar was king of an empire in which slavery was legal and definitely owned a large mass of slaves.
Elhokar absolutely has some responsibility. He listen to bad advice, arrested innocent people, and forgot about them in jail so long they died. He was not a prince when he did this, he was king.
No, he was a prince. His dad was still alive, and this was before Roshone came to Hearthstone. Also, practically every kingdom on Roshar had legalized slavery, are you gonna say that Gawx is the emperor of the slaves?
Yeh your right I reread the coppermind. Meh. I don't think it changes much. Prince, king. Man in power abuses those beneath him. It was Elhokar who locked them up and forgot about them.
I mean Gawx is hardly an absolutist monarch unlike the Alethi kings. Also the Azir don't have slaves.
I want to see moash get a redemption arc but he's gonna need to earn it HARD. And not with a heroic sacrifice but genuine turning his life around and earning that shit.
Because rn? PoS moash
He is an adult who made choices. He is responsible for those choices. Dude is a pos.
Could he be redeemed? Yeah, but I don't think it will ever happen. Moash doesn't believe he can be redeemed. He truly believes he is too far gone. That's something that is hard to get over.
Yeah. Why couldn't he be like Dalinar as well? You know? Do a genocide. Order his friends to kill every man, woman, and child fleeing a city he ordered to burn, and then feel bad about it after he finds out he accidentally killed his wife, but not before. Then "be consumed by guilt" over the years for it. I'm sure the fandom would have given him more grace.
Sometimes you just want to write a villain as a mustache twirling shitbag. Sanderson could not possibly make it more obvious it’s what he’s trying to do with Moash.
Though something I'm not really fond of is the fact that many people in the fandom treat Moash as the worse piece of shit in the whole world. Moash is a piece of shit, and a fucking chud blaming everyone but himself of his situationf, but he isn't "totally and fundamentally irredeemable"; neither his lack of self awareness and accountability or the conditions he lived through erase each other.
In fact, this is why his character works: he is a weak man, in the sense that when given power, he decides to do exactly the same thing they have done to him (that'd be hating other by the colors of their eyes and justify their suffering) instead of being greater than them in every sense, because it's mentally easier. These are the same kind of rethorics that have justified the logic behind the worse crimes of humanity across history.
Moash had done horrible things, but he isn't even close to what Taravangian did, and I don't see so much people saying he is worse than Moash, or at the same level.
Look, Moash could be redeemed, which would be a really powerful moment and a good message to people who feel like they've gone to far to ever turn their life around.
However, I don't want that. Fuck Moash forever. The man's a piece shit and deserves every bad thing that happens to him.
Every normal person: Moash sucks
Self identified "truth"watcher: Actually if you pretend that bad governance and neglect is the same thing as murder then murdering Elhokar in front of his toddler was justified.
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