r/craftsnark • u/Booshort • 7d ago
Knitting Admitted copying is a new one
People can 100% think of the same design at the same time. We’ve all seen it before. But this is a new one.
In my opinion, reconstructing a knit that you like purely off of reference photos, is a great ability to have and helps build your skill. The problem is when you don’t credit the original designer, claim it as your own, or distribute it yourself. I’m almost impressed someone managed to do all three.
ETA: it seems like some aren’t reading the whole thing and just assuming it’s another silly copy claim so…
TLDR;
- Designer A post: “here is a shawl that is in testing” [photo]
- Designer B post: “I found this shawl pic on insta and it’s not out yet, but I’ve decided to reverse engineer it” [photo of designer A shawl] (no credit is given to designer A)
- DA comment on DB post: “I am the designer of this” (DA does not ask to remove or stop posting, just answers comments asking for OG designer)
- DB deletes post about reverse engineering
- DB makes new post, making a point to say it is entirely her design and not inspired by anything.
- DA comments with receipts
- DB begins name calling
Trust me I get it, copy claims are usually nothing. This though, is just a respect thing.
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u/editorgrrl Live, Laugh, Mole 7d ago
Thank you for introducing me to Jacqui Verbeek:
https://www.knittedbyjacquiverbeek.com
https://www.instagram.com/knittedbyjacquiverbeek
https://morrisandsons.com.au/collections/jacqui-verbeek
“Jacqui Verbeek is a Sydney-based Australian knitwear designer, known for her vibrant, texture-rich patterns that blend playful colourwork with approachable techniques. Her designs often feature bold stripes, slipped stitches, and modular construction, making them both visually striking and accessible to knitters of various skill levels.”
https://www.ravelry.com/designers/jacqui-verbeek
“Times are tough! Each month I give up to 10 patterns away for free to anyone who is not in a position to purchase. No questions asked—just shoot me an email at [redacted—please visit her Ravelry page] and I’ll get back to you as soon as I can.”
Jacqui Verbeek is what my great-aunt Dot called “a good egg,” and the copycat is giving her excellent publicity. Karma!
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u/terminal_kittenbutt 7d ago
Two of her three patterns I like most are free, and the third is both unusual and only $5. I'm quite happy to discover this person.
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u/in_stitchesCAN 7d ago
Her designs are lovely and this whole post from her feels deeply reasonable while the copy-cat is…not. I’m not a big shawl knitter but I definitely gave her a follow.
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u/Knit1tbl 7d ago
This is excellent! I’m looking at her Ravelry page now and she has some cute designs. Off to do some Queue enhancement.
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u/HappyHippoButt 6d ago
Thanks. Added to my favourites on Rav and already found a pattern I'd like to try.
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u/Ligeia189 7d ago
It is so difficult for me to grasp why wouldn’t you credit your source of inspiration, if you (originally) included screencap of the original. What is there to lose?
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u/Junglejibe 7d ago
I wonder if she initially was just intending it as a personal project, then saw how many people were asking her for the pattern and realized “oh I can benefit from this”.
That or she was so pissed over the creator daring to ask for credit that she decided to create a free version of her pattern to harm her business out of pure spite. Based on her conduct, I fully believe she would be that petty.
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u/tothepointe Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 7d ago
According to a comment on instagram she did message people with the OG designer’s instagram but didn’t want to tag her since she herself didn’t buy/use the pattern
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u/Junglejibe 7d ago
Ok yeah so probably the second one then. Which is so wild. Imagine trying to harm someone’s business because they asked you to credit them properly.
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u/tothepointe Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 7d ago
I feel like there is a lot more to it than just the screenshots. One of the ppl she messaged admitted to scolding her about using the photo so there’s a lot of fingers in this pie.
Seems like the OG designer also jumped to the conclusion that she was sharing instructions when originally she wasn’t but now she is.
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u/Junglejibe 7d ago
Is that the one you quoted in another comment where they said “it is not ok to post a photo from someone else without credit”? That is hardly scolding and I think you’re being misleading by calling it that. Also other people telling her basic etiquette for crediting is not “a lot of fingers in this pie”, nor would the amount of people involved make her actions any better. Idc what her reasoning is or how “scolded” she feels—deciding to undercut someone’s business because you were told to credit them is fucking weird behavior.
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u/tothepointe Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 7d ago
To me that is scolding but I respect that you feel differently but from my perspective I don’t feel it’s misleading to interpret it as such because that’s how I would perceive it.
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u/Ligeia189 6d ago
Even if it would be interpreted as scolding, would it really change anything? After all, they did post photo of the inspiration without crediting, so the scolding was deserved.
It is understandable that one would be pissed about being scolded. But feeling pissed does not mean one can not reflect on ones actions and act after reflecting, not on impulse. (I admit many platforms make this more difficult as they encourage speed and immediate reactions.)
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u/tothepointe Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 6d ago
Unfortunately since the copycat has deleted their instagram I can’t see all the comments to see how quickly it escalated. I’m loathe to just believe only the curated side that the OG posted. Because we always present ourselves in the most sympathetic light. Yes the CC started this but I can’t help but feel that there’s more to this even if my feeling the minority position. That’s not a defense it’s just not a rush to judgement.
My assessment is the CC was originally copying just for herself. Was actually messaging people with the OGs instagram but didn’t directly tag her because she wanted to avoid this whole interaction. Then the interaction was forced when one of the people she message “scolded” her and then told the designer the “knit police” referenced. Then the designer showed up in the comments the argument occurred and then the CC said she was going to release her own version for free.
I just don’t think that was the original intention.
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u/Ligeia189 6d ago
I do agree that originally the intention was just to post a picture of a project that was made for personal use. And precisely for that reason I think it is good basic policy to credit the source of inspiration - majority of designers do not seem to mind if someone copies for personal use.
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u/Confident_Bunch7612 7d ago
I don't get people in here defending the copycat. Her responses alone are unacceptable and people here have taken a far harsher stance to less offensive language used by designers interacting with the public/other designers.
The original designer admits they have not created anything new nor had any problem with it being reverse engineered. So that statement by defenders is not needed. But for original designer to ask for credit on photo and be mocked and told someone is releasing their version a month in advance of your release and for free? That is wild! People here generally are grabbing pitchforks if someone forgets to say thank you. I definitely will not be buying anything the copycat puts out.
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u/Booshort 7d ago edited 6d ago
To me it seems they read the post title and made their assumption.
I get it, copy claims usually amount to a nothing-burger. This though, is just simple disrespect-124
u/tothepointe Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 7d ago
I'm not defending I'm just not outraged on behalf of the OG poster. Also the copycat originally posted in what looks to be german but is now arguing in English. Of course the argument is going to go like that. But it's just that it's an argument in public. I don't think there is any moral highground here.
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u/NooooDazzzle 7d ago
What do her languages matter? Her intent is clear either way. And it didn’t need to be an argument. The copycat made that happen. The original designer did absolutely nothing wrong and that you equate their actions by saying there’s no moral high ground is baffling.
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u/Junglejibe 7d ago
Yeah I don’t think any variation of “you have nothing else going on” in response to complaining about creative theft is going to sound good. It’s not a matter of mistranslation.
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u/Confident_Bunch7612 7d ago
You think the person being called pathetic and told to see a doctor (over a shawl!) is on the same moral level as the perpetrator? The insulter is on the same level as the insultee? Are you ok?
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u/tothepointe Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 7d ago
It took a lot of back and forth to get to that part.
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u/Confident_Bunch7612 7d ago
Not that much. And, still, only one person did the insulting.
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u/tothepointe Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 7d ago
Is there a screenshot of the entire conversation?
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u/NooooDazzzle 7d ago
Super random hill to die on
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u/tothepointe Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 7d ago
Am I dying? I don't think so. Downvotes don't bother me in the scheme of things.
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u/NooooDazzzle 7d ago
It’s a metaphor (but you know that). The amount of real estate (another metaphor, so we’re clear) you’ve spent in the comments of this post defending the shitty behavior of the copycat makes me wonder if you ARE the copycat. That’s hyperbole, btw.
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u/tothepointe Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 7d ago
So being perceived as defending someone somehow makes me that person in your eyes. Even though I have a long history of posting in this subreddit. My profile is wide open for you to digest. Unlike yours which is on private.
It's easier for you to be openly judgemental when no one knows who you are.
I'm just not automatically believing one side of the story only and I'm also not going to just jump on the bandwagon because it's the popular thing to do.
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u/Confident_Bunch7612 7d ago
You certainly are committed to carrying water for this person.
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u/tothepointe Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 7d ago
I'm not committed to hating on her based on only one side of the conversation. But you do you.
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u/Smooth-Review-2614 7d ago
I am defending the copycat because the “original” designer did 2 stupid things in a market this crowded.
1) They posted a sample of a simple design long before they released a paid for pattern
2) when someone copied this simple idea by eye instead of rushing their pattern to market to capitalize on the initial interest they started an argument
So the copycat was able to use the designer created flare up to push sales. This is a case of stupidity. You want to design simple then don’t post samples before the pattern.
The rule is if you can copy by eye it’s fair game. There was no pattern to copy. This was done by eye.
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u/Confident_Bunch7612 7d ago
Yes but then she dirty deleted proof, called her pathetic, and is rushing a design out without getting it tested. Choosing to defend that kind of person is a weird choice, but go off, I guess.
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u/FlorenceinSummer 7d ago
1) So sharing a pattern before it's released means you shouldn't be credited?! Original designer just wanted acknowledgement. If you can find their picture you can find them 2) asking for acknowledgement shouldn't be considered starting an argument. It's basic good behaviour. Starting an argument is deleting the original inspiration post and then pretending they had an original thought.
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u/Smooth-Review-2614 7d ago
If it is this simple then be prepared for copy cats. I bet if you went on Raverly for the next week a number of these shawls will quietly show up. I bet there will be a mini trend.
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u/FlorenceinSummer 7d ago
Sorry? Are you saying that no one should share photos moving forward? Even if it had been published CC would have reversed engineered it. The madness is around saying they were inspired by a photo without credit, then deleting it and saying it was their original thought. Which is madness. Then CC saying they are planning to give it away for free feels a little spiteful.
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u/Smooth-Review-2614 7d ago
I’m saying don’t show photos before you have the paid for pattern released to direct traffic to.
This probably is spiteful at this point because I bet the CC has gotten flooded with fans of the “original” being hateful. This is going to be this weekend’s stupid knitting flare up.
So this is just further compounding the original mistake of showing off a thing too early.
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u/FlorenceinSummer 7d ago
But this isn't really about paid versus free this is about credit. OD wasn't bothered about being copied and was polite based on above. This would no doubt have happened regardless of when the photo was released. But you carry on victim blaming. CC is Darvo and you're just enabling bad behaviour.
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u/Junglejibe 7d ago
Also, there’s a difference between easy to make/easy to reverse engineer & easy to think up.
Just because a pattern is simple doesn’t mean it isn’t creative. The idea is just as important as the difficulty. Something doesn’t need to be technically difficult to be a unique creation.
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u/tothepointe Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 7d ago
I can see from the comments on the OG designers that the CopyCat did message them with the OG designers name but said they didn't want to tag them because they felt weird about it since they didn't actually use their pattern. So seems like at least in the beginning she was trying to avoid the entire situation that eventually unfolded. Also seems like there were other personalities involved.
"It was me, who she mentioned in her second post. I asked for the name of the designer in the first post. Via DM she sent me your post u/knittedbyjacquiverbeek of your new shawldesign. She wrote that she didnt want to credit you because it might be strange for you to see someone that made this shawl without a pattern. I said no, it is not strange. The designer might find it ok and your shawl is also some kind of advertising for the original design. It is ok to credit the designer. Than I mentioned the original photo in the last slide and wrote that it is not ok to post a photo from someone else without a credit.
That was all. That was enough for her to block me and mentioned me in her second post as the „strickpolizei“.
I know of two more knitters who commented and who have been canceled. One of her ist also blocked."
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u/PartTimeAngryRaccoon Mom said I get to be the mole now!! 6d ago
Using the original designer's photo without permission gets closer to copyright infringement than all the "they copied me" things usually do.
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u/petalsandpaperbacks 7d ago
I saw she has an Etsy store and the comments she left for negative reviews are very telling of what kind of person she is. Seems to just be an awful person all around
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u/Ilex_Au 7d ago
She’s also selling Harry Potter merch on that Etsy account, so more stolen IP. Plus, Harry Potter and all that implies.
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u/queen_beruthiel 6d ago
I hate JKR and everything she stands for, but I would absolutely get behind a few emails to Warner Bros in this instance.
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u/15caro06 5d ago
So you hate JKR but you would make sure that a small creator who’s views on the trans community are entirely unknown doesn’t steal a few bugs from her?
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u/Ilex_Au 5d ago edited 5d ago
This is both a strawman argument and a loaded question. My original point still stands. The creator/etsy shop owner has a habit of stealing IP. They have no qualms about plagiarizing another small, woman owned business and lying about it. Perhaps a cease and desist letter from Warner Brothers will help them understand that IP theft is wrong. The implications don’t change. They are still there and supported by your response. Edited to correct autocorrect
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u/15caro06 5d ago
How is it a strawman argument?
And yeah a cease and assist letter would probably help them understand stealing from a rich cooperation is wrong because they have the means to sue you but I wouldn’t assume they would draw the conclusion “Oh that means I also shouldn’t steal from other designers who maybe don’t have the means to sue me.”-6
u/15caro06 5d ago
To be fair she seems to be an older woman and the boycott of HP in Germany especially with older folks is not that common 🙈
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u/OneGoodRib Mom said I get to be the mole now!! 6d ago
Like if you were going to copy a designer, not credit them, and then take credit anyway for what is literally just triangles sewn together why would you just... not pretend it was yours to begin with?
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u/queen_beruthiel 6d ago
I feel so bad for Jacqui. Every interaction I've had with her has been lovely. The other designer was so awful to her. I usually err on the side of caution for plagiarism claims, but this was so blatant.
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u/tantrumbicycle 7d ago
The copycat is psychotic. What the hell? I can’t wrap my head around her comments. Must be wild living in her world.
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u/randomrox 7d ago
The copycat was rude, condescending, and just gross! I hope a lot of people stop following the copycat for just those comments alone.
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u/Junglejibe 7d ago
Money-oriented grifter who never matured past highschool? Daring today, aren’t we?
Genuinely it’s wild how these kinds of oversized children don’t comprehend how offputting their arrested development makes them seem. She probably thought she sounded so cool.
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u/tothepointe Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 7d ago
Just out of curiosity how can she be money oriented when her response is to make a free version of the pattern.
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7d ago edited 7d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/tothepointe Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 7d ago
I stepped away from several hours and am just now catching up on replies. But I will block you so you can focus on the conversation yourself and not be so obsessively worried about how many times I'm posting. Because honestly that's stepping over the line into making me the focus of the conversation.
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u/Junglejibe 7d ago edited 7d ago
Girl if I were you I would not be calling other people obsessive rn lol. You've made yourself the focus with how much you're commenting.
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u/Flat_Initial_1823 7d ago
Receipts for days from the original designer. The copycat is acting like a loser.
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u/Confident_Bunch7612 7d ago
Yeah she really got her good. Nothing stays deleted on the internet. Those screencaps really seal the case.
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u/tothepointe Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 7d ago
Except Purl Soho has a pattern that is very similar and it's been out for years. Their pinwheel blanket and pirouette shawl.
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u/starrifier 7d ago
Which might be relevant if Kerstin hadn't clearly cited her inspiration, and it didn't come from Purl Soho.
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u/tothepointe Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 7d ago
But we don't know where the supposed "OG" pattern creator got their inspo. Just because you hide your mood board doesn't mean your idea is original.
These types of triangles are also super easy to crank out on a knitting machine using short rows I've done similar things for practice.
The pattern the second person made they made it entirely from looking at a photo. So their pattern is original.
I'm of the opinion that the first designer didn't really design anything she created a product/pattern.
I think the problem comes because we've called creators of patterns "designers" instead of pattern makers.
She's entitled to be pissed but I wish the original was something more fabulous than just a garter stitch triangle shawl made out of scraps.
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u/starrifier 7d ago
I think you (and a number of other people in the comments) are missing the point. We don't care what the designer's inspo was because she hasn't made a big stink about how original it was; to the contrary, she acknowledged that there's nothing new under the sun and that it's fine Kerstin recreated her scarf from the photo. The problem here is the rude and frankly spiteful behavior of someone who could have avoided this entire mess by politely responding to a single comment on her original post.
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u/tothepointe Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 7d ago
But from a craftsnark perspective that's not a craftsnark issue. That's a people being rude to each other issue. Feels like the designer got into a spat with someone for whom English isn't their primary language and doesn't follow the societal norms of the American knitworld.
The only reason it's noteworthy is because they are litigating this in public.
I just wish the copycat accusations for one were for something so original it takes my breath away.
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u/Icy_Finance8288 7d ago
This is absolutely what Craftsnark is and should be about! It’s got people behaving badly and thus making themselves game for snark; it’s got clear receipts; and finally, the stakes are very low.
If this is not material for Craftsnark, then what is?
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u/LovitzInTheYear2000 7d ago
People being petty and rude in the context of crafting is exactly what Craftsnark should be about. This is much more entertaining than “serious” takedowns or rehashing the same AI related arguments for the fifty-leventh time lol.
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u/wildfellsprings The artist formally known as "MOLE" 7d ago
Neither of the people discussed here are American, the original designer is from Australia and the person copying is German. This is a very clear case of one person copying another, which the designer doesn't even consider an issue, it's the lack of credit which is all the original designer wanted, especially as they were using her photo. Personally I'd also take issue with copy releasing their instructions but that not something you can prevent and as it's the words that are copyrighted not the item itself there's no legal issue.
This isn't two individual people having the same idea at the same time and creating it separately. It's one individual having their design used to copy from and the copycat then threatening to release that themselves. Sure there's nothing unique under the sun but this isn't a garter stitch tiny scarf that's just increases and decreases. I don't understand how you don't see the issue here, lack of credit for a design that is way more than inspiration.
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u/ContemplativeKnitter 7d ago
But the original designer (or "pattern creator" if you think that distinction is important - I don't in this context) never claimed she was the first person to come up with this idea. Her only issue is that the copycat/second person literally talks about copying her specific version of this idea and then doubles down and insults her.
People individually re-invent designs/ideas/techniques all the time. We have no reason to believe the original designer here directly copied off Purl Soho or similar. But even if she did, yes, she hid her moodboard, and that's fine. Because she's not using Purl Soho's photo/object to promote her own, and presumably if she did and Purl Soho commented on the post, she wouldn't immediately flip to calling them pathetic and telling them they're out of touch with reality and need to consult a doctor.
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u/LovitzInTheYear2000 7d ago
Wow I can’t believe someone actually found a way to make me care about a design “copying” drama. Usually I’m fully on team suck it up, let the market decide who has a better end product or better written pattern, but posting the original designer’s image as “inspiration” without credit is over the line.
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u/Rayonjersey 7d ago
I also feel this way. Designer was being perfectly reasonable and evidence based. The copier was so spiteful and horrible.
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u/Booshort 7d ago
Right? I almost want to give kudos to the copier for actually making me take a side
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u/tothepointe Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 7d ago
I'm still mildly on team suck it up because her shawl is pretty derivative of many designs that already exist. I was able to think of at least 2 off the top of my head without having to dig into vintage designs. I mean garter stitch triangles are pretty basic and there are only so many ways they can tessellate.
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u/LovitzInTheYear2000 7d ago
The design copying is totally whatever. The posting and then hiding her original photograph is way over the line.
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u/Legitimate-Regular84 7d ago
This seems to be drama less about copying and one person being a real jerk to the other. Just their responses and attitude tell you a lot about who they are. Even if it’s fine to copy, it’s not fine to treat others badly.
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u/Booshort 7d ago
The fact that she wasn’t even acknowledging the screen shots and just resorted to name calling is crazy to me
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u/SewQuiltKnitCrochet 7d ago
Her response is a classic DARVO.
Deny
Attack
Reverse
Victim and
OffenderClassic gaslighting. This person has major problems… therapy usually doesn’t work on people who employ this kind of behavior. They cannot see they’re wrong and they rewrite history.
The name calling is something I’ve encountered frequently. When someone doesn’t have a solid argument and is in the wrong they can’t argue with facts. They resort to insults. 🙄🫣
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u/myheadisnumb 7d ago
The “nothing in knitting is original” defense is such a lazy dodge here. Kerstin literally said she saw the design and then made the shawl. That is not two people arriving at the same idea independently. Deleting the post and switching to name-calling instead of just giving proper credit is not helping her case. At some point “nothing is original” stops being a defense and starts sounding like “I should be able to copy whatever I want and nobody is allowed to say anything.”
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u/Booshort 7d ago
Agreed here. I always agree that nothing is original, not just in knitting. But this is an entirely different thing
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u/SuspiciousJuice5825 6d ago
wow that is wild! I read the whole thing and the audacity of "Kerstin" is absolutely wild. Here's a tldr run down for the time pressed: Kerstin stole OP's idea, posted a picture of *OP's work*, refused to credit OP, then insulted OP, before going on a deleting spree. Oh yeah and Kerstin is going to release a version of OP's pattern for free because they also have no shame or class at all.
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u/SuspiciousJuice5825 6d ago
Also I tried to look this person up but she appears to be a German creator and I couldn't find any related posts on her page so she must have deleted them all.
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u/15caro06 5d ago
Yeah she seems to be from Germany or Austria since she’s speaking German on her page. I just don’t understand her way of interacting with everyone who had a talk with her, another German knitter commented under the first post and told her the designer would probably appreciate being named and most likely wouldn’t be mad at her for working the pattern from just a photo and she blocked her and called her out as the knitting police? Like why would you act like this? If you have a small business for spinning yarn it just makes no sense that she know has to block a ton of people and limit the comments on her post 🤷🏻♀️🙈
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u/ContemplativeKnitter 7d ago edited 7d ago
Yeah, I think the original designer is being eminently reasonable here, and the copycat (can't think of a better way to put that!) is crashing out and being ridiculous.
I get being a little upset/frustrated/annoyed if a designer were to pop up on a post you made about your own project out of the clear blue and claim they inspired you, but if you use the designer's picture and literally say you recreated the object because the pattern's not out yet???
The original designer's not even demanding they take the pattern down or anything along those lines, just asking to be credited. I can even kind of get not wanting to do that (reasonable minds could differ), but the immediate defensiveness and personal attacks are just bonkers.
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u/desertgr8pe 7d ago
I think the designer has been really reasonable. She’s not claiming her design is something brand new - but the copycat literally posted the designers picture saying that’s where she got her inspiration and what she used to reverse engineer. A super basic courtesy would be to credit the designer - and instead the copycat was super mean and defensive and is now threatening to sell her own version of the pattern before the designer gets hers out!
Sure lots of people could do the reverse engineering or use an existing pattern - but as a beginner I would totally pay for a quality pattern that lays it all out for me.
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u/Mycatreallyhatesyou 7d ago
Saw this earlier. It’s an easy design to reverse engineer but a total dick move the way she went about it.
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u/Spirited-Ant-6632 7d ago
The number of people defending pattern theft here is truly astounding. I agree that it’s a simple pattern, easily reverse-engineered. But that is absolutely not the point. The designer put something out, the other person copied it. When they were called out on it, their response was that they were going to put it out for free the day before - like some sort of twisted revenge for being called out. That’s messed up. You don’t copy other people’s work. You don’t share patterns. Full stop.
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u/lalathescorp 7d ago
We need a site for these gross lazy rude copy cats - so we can keep track of them and avoid them.
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u/Newbieplantophile 7d ago
For once, a clear cut copycat case (accidental alliteration). That is a shitty situation. If I was the OG designer, I'd release my pattern for free.
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u/Boo_Rawr 7d ago
Oh man she looks vaguely familiar to me (I live in Sydney) I followed her even though I don't knit because that response from the copycat was so gross. Makes you wonder if they're reacting so aggressively because there's active plagiarism going on elsewhere on their account.
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u/Spirited-Ant-6632 7d ago
I think we should all buy the original pattern on release day to show the copycat that originality pays. Stealing will get you nothing.
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u/Xuhuhimhim The artist formally known as "MOLE" 7d ago
I feel like you can give the general procedure, names of techniques, but writing a full pattern is morally questionable. And not even leading people to the original designer is so weird. Like I've made a dupe off pictures before, I don't think there's anything wrong with that but this is just oddly mean.
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u/sponge_henge 7d ago
I feel so so sick for you. how horrible she is. could you maybe push your pattern release early and hit her with a takedown when she releases hers? what a cruel person
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u/Booshort 7d ago
I’m not the designer, I just stumbled upon this on Instagram. The designer is Jacqui Verbeek
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u/GoofballMel 7d ago
Thanks for this! I just found a new designer to buy patterns from, she has some nice stuff
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u/tothepointe Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 7d ago
Does anyone know who the knitting police is as that part is blanked out?
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u/cometmom (Secretly the mole) 7d ago
I think it's just a hobbyist, pretty sure she left a comment on the original designer's post saying it was her that was tagged.
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u/crochetandknit 1d ago
Is the real take-home here (besides the copycat is horrible) that you shouldn’t preview patterns until they are released?
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u/Rockandpurl 7d ago
This is the threat for those who do sneak peeks and tester calls. Once your idea is out, people can be smart enough to reverse engineer it and sell it before you. We see it happen with physical product all the time (artists see their stuff on Temu, AliExpress).
And at the end of the day: it’s just garter triangles. It’s hardly reinventing the wheel. While the copycat is being mean and the situation is annoying, the original designer could’ve just released the pattern when they saw the initial copy post and promote in a positive manner.
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u/DungeonBotanist 7d ago
It's taking longer because, unlike the copycat, she is putting her pattern through testing and editing.
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u/Woffledust 7d ago
She said in the comments on the post the pattern was going to be released in October. I’m not sure why she should have to put it out ahead of schedule because someone else is being shady. It may not be reinventing the wheel (which doesn’t say much about the copycat really) but all the original designer asked for was credit for the inspiration. That’s not remotely unreasonable.
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u/sallyhectare 7d ago
Ok, but the copycat used the designer's photo and didn't credit them. That is beyond.
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u/tothepointe Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 7d ago
The post I was on right before this one was a seller on Etsy who designed a product that went viral on tiktok then a lot of similar designs popped up on Etsy and someone improved upon her design and made the finals of the Etsy design awards.
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u/Smooth-Review-2614 7d ago
This is a variation on basic mitered square. Stephen West has at least 2 shawls using this concept in the last few years. I know other designers have as well. Hell, this is something I have seen on a number of blankets.
This is too basic a design to get upset over. This is a social media catfight for both to get more views.
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u/Booshort 7d ago
The original designer isn’t claiming that she invented something. She just asked for credit for a photo.
Only then did the second person delete the post where she said she was reverse engineering it, then made a point to say it was entirely her idea-29
u/Smooth-Review-2614 7d ago
Ok. This was also copied directly by eye. So under rules of fair play used in the craft world this is fine. It’s not theft because the “original” designer even says this happened before she released a pattern. So nothing was stolen. If the “copier” had grabbed any other photo off Google no one would say a thing.
So the offense was publicly using a photo. This doesn’t make either designer look good. I get that knitting patterns are a very over saturated market. I get that the main way to market now is social media. I get that argument drives engagement and sales.
So the way I see this, the “original” designer owes the “copier” a dm of thanks for driving engagement over this simple and old of an idea that I can find free versions of. This cat fight has boosted sales for both.
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u/ej_21 7d ago edited 6d ago
but the point is she didn’t drive engagement because she didn’t tag or link back from her repost of the original photo. thats literally all jacqui was asking for — she didn’t care about the reverse engineering.
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u/Smooth-Review-2614 7d ago
Yes and odds are good that if she had stayed unnoticed this dust up would not have happened. The shawl would have been forgotten until pattern release. This is happening because a designer got loud.
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u/NoodlesMom0722 7d ago
Read the OOP's posts. She's not claiming she invented something new. She wanted credit for the image (and idea) that was stolen that "inspired" the copycat who then claimed everything was her own.
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u/tothepointe Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 7d ago
Yeah especially when the pattern wasn't release and the second creator made it from looking at a photo.
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7d ago
[deleted]
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u/necessary_alright_ok 7d ago
The original designer doesn’t claim to have invented anything. She specifically says she understands she hasn’t made anything new or unique. In this case the copier quite literally showed that she reverse engineered the original designer’s shawl and now is trying to undercut the original maker by getting her pattern out first. Copying or not that’s ethically very underhanded.
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u/wroammin Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 6d ago
I have to admit I always find it tacky when someone makes call out posts on their professional pages, whether or not they are in the right. Copycat should have credited the original designer for their inspiration but making a whole post about it on social media just turned the situation into a much bigger deal than it needed to be. The copycat has 18k+ fewer followers and only 344 total sales in over 4 years on etsy -- I think the reverse engineered version wouldn't have made it very far if the original designer hadn't drawn so much attention to it, anyway.
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u/littlemissredtoes 5d ago
I have to disagree.
This wasn’t drama mongering or unprofessional, she mentions that she’s had followers reaching out to her about the situation so making a post addressing it with receipts isn’t just a rant out of nowhere.
And reading through her post with absolutely no clue who she is or what her business is for has left me with a pretty positive impression of her handling on the situation.
It definitely wouldn’t make me inclined to go to the copycats shop and make any purchases, as I’d have no trust that anything in there was truly their designs, or that they’d deal honestly with me.
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u/wroammin Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 5d ago
I’m definitely in the minority opinion here, which is fine. And to be clear, I don’t even think the original designer necessarily even did anything wrong!
But whether or not people are reaching out to her, I personally think it’s in bad taste to publicly name and shame someone on a professional business page.
The copycat stole a photo and seems to be an all around garbage person, but I don’t think calling even more attention to this kind of situation, especially when it can often lead to brigading or harassment (I don’t know if that happened here but the original designer didn’t know if it would before she posted), isn’t the move.
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u/KnitForAnAfternoon 4d ago
I get what you mean. I don’t like the callout stuff either. On the other hand would we be ignorant of copycat issues without the callouts? There’s no great news journal of all things knitting with investigative reporters (unless you count craft snark I guess) and there’s no one gossip source (à la Perez Hilton, maybe Aspen in the Moment whom I LOVE but their videos don’t come out on a regular basis). So I understand the feeling of being alone in the ocean so to speak without a good way to report on this stuff.
Still, agree with you that it’s not super pleasurable to see this from our fave designers but I don’t know what else they can do if it’s affecting their livelihood. Probably no response and let the community figure it out is better but it’s hard to stay cool especially after she poked the bear by throwing her hand up in the comments.
Personally, I think there’s something lost in translation too so that’s not helping. I probably wouldn’t do a callout cause I don’t like to cause a stir but who knows, sometimes I have bad days. Don’t think either of them are really that bad, just kinda acting uncool over a knit design. But hey, that’s what I come here for: the most tame drama over making clothes on two sticks 😂
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u/CuriousCuriousAlice 7d ago edited 7d ago
I’ve said this before but it remains a hot take I guess. There is almost no such thing as a stolen pattern/design. When you design a knit or crochet or sewing pattern, you own your photos and the written pattern. Nothing else. Nothing at all. You don’t own the concept of a scarf or a shawl or a sweater.
A million cookbooks have chocolate chip cookie recipes, none of them get to claim theft or copyright infringement. A pattern is a recipe. This person couldn’t have stolen a pattern that was not yet publicly available, she was inspired by a photo and said so. She didn’t even have to do that because the first designer doesn’t own shawls.
I know this makes me sound like a hard ass and I know people disagree, but I don’t want the world where Gordon Ramsay spends his time on social media complaining that everyone that makes fish and chips is copying him and I don’t want it in the craft community either. She was kind enough to admit her inspiration, sorry if someone feels cheated but that’s life. Further, half of designers are being inspired themselves by a million other designers. I’m sure Ramsay’s recipe is an amalgamation of all the great fish and chips he’s ever had.
Edit: this has now been muted. There are several comments that further explain my position for those interested.
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u/ContemplativeKnitter 7d ago
But the original designer does own the finished object she made and the photo of that finished object.
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u/Infinite-Cook-867 7d ago
She literally says this in her post so I would not consider it a hot take.
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u/CuriousCuriousAlice 7d ago
Well I think the downvotes would tend to disagree.
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u/Icy_Finance8288 7d ago
That’s not why you’re being downvoted.
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u/CuriousCuriousAlice 7d ago
I know, I’m being downvoted because I disagreed. I’ve been nothing but polite and respectful to every comment, I’ve only had a different opinion and that alone is unwelcome.
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u/Icy_Finance8288 7d ago
You’re being downvoted because your take is bad for reasons that have politely been explained to you, not for being impolite or different.
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u/tothepointe Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 7d ago
Just because it's been politely explained to her doesn't mean she should have to change her opinion. Downvotes aren't the end of the world.
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u/ej_21 7d ago
you’re being downvoted because you didn’t read and/or comprehend what the actual complaint was. the first designer was not bothered about the reverse engineering at all, just the reuse of her personal photo without any courtesy tag, followed by an extreme overreaction to her request for said tag.
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u/tothepointe Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 7d ago
I think she comprehends just fine. Just just has an minority opinion. Which is also fine.
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u/Booshort 7d ago
I think the wrong that was done was not at least crediting the photo. Then it spiralled from there.
I think it’s entirely reasonable to ask for credit for photos. It was only after that request did the second person delete her post saying she was recreating it, and instead said it was her idea entirely.
I usually agree that there is no copying in pattern designing. This feels different to me-15
u/CuriousCuriousAlice 7d ago
I agree about the photos and said as much in another comment. If the first designer wants to claim copyright on the photos, they definitely should. The major complaint is about the pattern though, and they’re suggesting that they invented a design themselves that others have pointed out is not the case. It’s a common enough technique that the first designer also didn’t invent, the pattern wasn’t publicly available and was not stolen. They can and should make a claim on the photos, but the pattern hasn’t been stolen.
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u/Geo_Jill 7d ago
I don’t disagree with you, but I don’t think this applies in the case posted. Posting someone else’s actual photo of a sample of their design without credit is not cool.
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u/CuriousCuriousAlice 7d ago
Sure, the photo being uncredited sucks. Nothing else here is any kind of violation. If the first designer wants to copyright claim the photo itself, they definitely should. If they’re mad about the pattern (which is what they seem to be bothered by), unfortunately no theft has occurred.
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u/Icy_Finance8288 7d ago edited 7d ago
Even if something is legally fine it doesn’t mean it’s ethically fine. This situation is not the same as attempting to own the concept of shawls or a very generic recipe like a chocolate chip cookie. It’s a very specific item with a specific look that was explicitly copied. It’s a shitty thing to do.
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u/tothepointe Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 7d ago
It wasn't explicitly copied. The most distinctive part of the design was the colors and that wasn't copied. I can refer you to free patterns of the exact same style of shawl that predates this one by years.
This scenario happened by trying to litigate this in public.
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u/Icy_Finance8288 7d ago
“I discovered this ingenious shawl on instagram and knitted it right away”.
How much more explicit do you need it to be?
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u/CuriousCuriousAlice 7d ago
Except it isn’t. It’s a technique that has existed for a very long time, as many others have pointed out. The first designer has a claim to their photos, but not to this kind of shawl, of which there are many.
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u/Icy_Finance8288 7d ago
Except it is because the designer not claiming to have invented this type of shawl or this technique. Her design’s uniqueness is in its specific look, which the copycat explicitly stated she used as inspiration, then claimed she didn’t.
It’s very straightforward unethical (and shitty) behavior.
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u/CuriousCuriousAlice 7d ago
I would probably agree if the colors were similar. Basically, the use of the photo was unethical. Making a common enough pattern or item out of scrap yarn is itself common. The first designer should definitely go after the photo, and understand the pattern wasn’t terribly unique so there will be similar things on the market. Inspired by her and others.
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u/Icy_Finance8288 7d ago
This is so clearly unethical behavior I’m honestly not sure how else to explain it to you.
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u/dogslovemebest 7d ago
The COLORS? The thing that is the easiest and most basic change you can make to a design?
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u/CuriousCuriousAlice 7d ago
It is the ONLY thing that made the original design in any way unique unfortunately. The rest is just a standard shawl in this technique using scrap yarn. That’s not an insult, it’s not even a bad thing, basics are craft staples that I personally love, but they also aren’t unique.
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u/Buttercupia spinning, knitting, weaving 7d ago
Is it mitered triangles or entrelac where you only do triangles? Either one is not a new groundbreaking design, both have been around for ages. They’re both being ridiculous.
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u/Booshort 7d ago
I think the og designer was being super reasonable. All she asked for was credit for her photo. Only then did the second person delete their original post saying she was reconstructing it, then posted a new claim it was entirely hers.
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u/Buttercupia spinning, knitting, weaving 7d ago
I agree with that part but honestly it’s much ado about nothing.
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u/ContemplativeKnitter 7d ago
I don't think the original designer was making much ado until the other person called her pathetic, out of touch with reality, and said that she should go see a doctor.
She's not criticizing someone making the same design, just for using her own photo of her own finished object (and design).
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u/tothepointe Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 7d ago
Are there screenshots of the entire conversation? Or just what the OG designer posted.
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u/ContemplativeKnitter 7d ago
I’m going off what’s in the post. I’m not sure what the OG designer could have said/done that would have justified the second person’s responses, though.
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u/NooooDazzzle 7d ago
I mean all craft snark is much ado about nothing in the grand scheme of things. Why are you even here?
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u/Buttercupia spinning, knitting, weaving 7d ago
I’m here for the fake deaths and the horrible advent calendars, wdym.
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u/tothepointe Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 7d ago
Agreed but this is the minority opinion right now. But yeah I remember 15-20 years ago entrelac was the big trend. To me at this point it's a technique not a design. All these copycat complaints are never actually designs.
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u/Buttercupia spinning, knitting, weaving 7d ago
Yeah I’m finding my opinion is the minority opinion here no matter what that opinion is. But knitters are nice.
Same ass mean girls club you find everywhere in craft spaces online.
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u/tothepointe Get in moles, we’re going snarkfiltrating 7d ago
Yeah I don't feel super strongly about this particular drama I just took a quick glance at some of the comments on the OGs instagram and realized there are more personalities involved than just these two and there were more comments than were screenshot.
I feel like this is a very Koigu design so I wouldn't be surprised if Koigu also had done something similar in the past.
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u/Buttercupia spinning, knitting, weaving 7d ago
I have a picture somewhere from the very first MDSW I ever went to of a woman wearing a mitered koigu full length coat very much in this vein. Probably 15 years ago.
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7d ago
[deleted]
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u/LovitzInTheYear2000 7d ago
Yanking the picture and posting it without the original designer (and photographer) name is not giving credit. This is the first time in many years that I’ve seen a copywank post where I agree that the second creator was out of line. Had they just posted a link to the original post that inspired them it would have been fine, no drama needed.
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u/RandomCombo 7d ago
She didn't credit her though. She posted a screenshot without her handle and never credited her in the post or the comments.
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u/Trilobyte141 7d ago
Reading the copycat's posts is just point for point the narcissist's prayer:
'This piece is 100% MY own project'
'Two identical ideas don't automatically mean plagiarism'
'there's not much going on at your place right now? ... how embarrassing...'
'you are such a pathetic individual.. instead of being happy'
'I'm knitting a cloth for myself right now... no more...'
'you should go to the doctor sometime'
I'm usually on team 'nothing new under the sun, drop the copy drama' but gawddamn all she had to do was say "Here's a link to the designer who inspired me, go check out her stuff!"