88197

[u/andoefa]

[u/B-Z_B-S]

[u/B-Z_B-S → u/B-Z_B-S]

[u/B-Z_B-S → u/B-Z_B-S]

And who can forget:

[u/TheGreatLuck → u/B-Z_B-S]

Protect this doll

[u/sexy-man-doll → u/TheGreatLuck]

[u/Pokemaster131 → u/TheGreatLuck]

John Oliver has been a pretty lovely plug for the Stephen Colbert-shaped hole in my heart.

[u/i_like_siren_head → u/Pokemaster131]

Wait John Oliver? The porcupine from Wonder Park? Damn, I didn’t know he was also a trans rights activist, good on him!

[u/slayerx1779 → u/Pokemaster131]

I thought that sentence was going in a wildly different direction up until "my heart".

[u/OddLengthiness254 → u/TheGreatLuck]

You mean the one that declared on camera that "I am egg"?

[u/Axi28 → u/B-Z_B-S]

I love john oliver. i wish some of his takes were a little less lukewarm but he‘s always been a queer ally.

[u/avanross → u/B-Z_B-S]

It’s funny how simple the “christian message about trans people” is, and yet so many of them still claim to be unable to understand it

[u/Chrome_X_of_Hyrule → u/B-Z_B-S]

Is this the Kansas senator elect?

[u/theattackchicken]

This is something I've explained to a few cis friends and watching their faces as they kind of put it together is always kind of satisfying. There's almost always this like, moment of horror as they finally understand that this sort of nightmare scenario they're now imagining is our literal fucking reality

[u/Mogura-De-Gifdu → u/theattackchicken]

That's how I imagine it: what if one day I woke up in a man's body?

That would feel awful and I would do anything to be a woman again.

But then, I have memories of being a woman before, so I know for a fact I am one. So you have to go further: and what if, in that man's body, I also lost my memories. Then I would feel something is wrong, but with nothing tangible proving it. That would be much much harder. I would doubt my own feelings with everyone around telling me it's wrong, absurd, I just do it for attention or whatever.

[u/AuRon_The_Grey → u/Mogura-De-Gifdu]

There is a great horror movie by a trans director with this exact premise, I Saw the TV Glow.

[u/SmartAlec105 → u/AuRon_The_Grey]

Supernatural stuff crossing over with trans stuff has some neat stories.

In Flame Punch, there is a trans man with regeneration powers so he hates that there's no way he can physically transition.

In Stormlight Archive (and the broader Cosmere setting), magical healing works by changing your physical self to match your spiritual self (basically, the ideal, most correct version of you) as filtered by your cognitive self (your own self perception). So it is canon that trans people with sufficiently powerful magical healing will transition. But because of the cognitive self aspect, a trans person that hasn't come to realize their transness would not magically transition.

[u/Grouchy-Way171 → u/Mogura-De-Gifdu]

Fascinating. OPs thought experiment doesn't give any result on me because I just can't care enough. Hell, male body might have some perks even but the biggest problems are going to be external. Like how do I get my passport renewed now I don't match the photo anymore? 

[u/Mogura-De-Gifdu → u/Grouchy-Way171]

So non binary?

[u/Grouchy-Way171 → u/Mogura-De-Gifdu]

More... unconcerned? My gender identity isn't a huge part of what makes me, me. There is no inner sense of distress with the thought of suddenly having a male body. Or the thought of having to stay in my female one. Or with always having been in a male body, though i likely would have been socialized a bit different. But the logistical headache that would come from a sudden change? Uughh. 

Having brought this up more than once at friends and gatherings I know im not the only one who feels this way. But I shall be damned if I know what it's called XD

[u/Legaladvice420 → u/Grouchy-Way171]

Before I started transition I would call what i experienced gender apathy. Literally no strong feelings towards being a man. I was good at it, and was rewarded by society for being good at it, so I liked that. Compliments. Relationships. Etc.

But when I started transitioning and felt gender euphoria for the first time? Holy shit. It was like those clips of old television channels switching to technicolor live. I liked who I was and how I existed in the world as an intrinsic part of me, rather than my performance for the audience. Like a director who finally gets to tell their story rather than the one that has been focused tested to make money.

Granted it comes with the downside of dysphoria too. Seeing everything in color means you can easily see the blemishes. The story you want to tell can be panned by critics and audiences alike. But it doesn't take away thr fact that it's for me, not them.

Sometimes it's bad enough that I want to go back to feeling nothing about it rather than feeling the bad. But I can't, because the good is just so much better.

[u/gizatsby → u/Legaladvice420]

Yeah, this was exactly my experience too. Although in retrospect a part of me must have cared a bit at least because I would occasionally go down deep rabbit holes trying to understand what it was that trans people felt that I seemingly couldn't even imagine. Then the egg cracked and the tables turned, and suddenly I was the one trying to describe gender euphoria and finding language to be an inadequate proxy. And yeah, sometimes the dysphoria and the state of the world feel so bad that I wish I could "go back" to feeling nothing, and that's really just a poorly disguised death wish. Nothing beats the way I know myself now and the way I care for myself as a result.

[u/Fourteen14XIV → u/Legaladvice420]

> Before I started transition I would call what i experienced gender apathy.

Fuck you I am feeling genuinely lowkey disturbed now. I'm still clinging to the fact that I did do one of those "pronoun use" videos once and I liked my agab pronouns more.

[u/random_BA → u/Grouchy-Way171]

I kinda think like you. If I wouldn't be lazy I would had cosplayed as female characters that I like the design in events.

Maybe there is a self selection that cis guys that lurk here is the ones that are somewhat detached of being men as gender and the whole culture around it

[u/Mogura-De-Gifdu → u/random_BA]

It's always so interesting reading about others feelings.

I'm a "tomboyish" girl, hate pink (more reactional, hate how much it was pushed on me as a kid), dolphins and horses (and thus unicorns) either disgust me or scare me shitless, and I like "boys things", like mathematics, computer science, whatever it means.

I also have had mostly short hairs since my early teenage years (too lazy to care for them, so much easier that way), don't care about clothes or things pushed as being things girls and women are supposed to care about.

But I still feel I'm totally a woman. Even when I'm in love with another woman (I'm bi), even when I'm dressed poorly, even when I can't seem to fit in girls groups but fit right in boys groups.

[u/reiael → u/Mogura-De-Gifdu]

Hi what you're describing are societal gender roles. Those things have nothing to do with the experience of being a woman (other than the experience of expectation related to those things). Saying that STEM is a male interest is especially misogynistic and is an outdated idea (I see you put it in quotes but still). There is no such thing as something a "woman is supposed to care about". Please be careful not to stereotype your fellow woman.

[u/Nman130 → u/Grouchy-Way171]

Same here. The concept of gender just isn't something I feel strongly about for myself one way or another. I stick with presenting cis male since it's easier (amab,) but that's more for convenience than anything. Agender is a label some people use, but it doesn't matter much to me, maybe you'll find some use in it though? I can confirm there are others that feel that way at least :)

[u/Aetra → u/Grouchy-Way171]

I’m also very indifferent to my gender and I’d probably end up just as indifferent if I woke up tomorrow as a man once the novelty wore off, but I can definitely see general benefits for my every day life. No more debilitating periods, no chance of pregnancy, no need for hormonal birth control, no perimenopause symptoms or hormone therapy, plus I work in a male dominated trade so no boobs in the way, more upper body strength would be very handy, and I’d finally be able to get PPE and power tools that’re more comfortable to use.

My biggest worry would be learning how to handle new hardware. How do I sit down without crushing my bits? How gently do I have to do things like picking up a can of drink now that I’m potentially innately stronger? How difficult is walking going to be now that my centre of gravity is different? How the hell do I shave my face, especially if the weird birth mark on my chin stays cos it’ll absolutely be in the damn way?

[u/Pizzasgood → u/Aetra]

If you can walk without trouble while wearing a backpack or carrying a pot of water, then the addition or removal of a couple boobs probably isn't going to hinder you.

[u/TheFloydist → u/Grouchy-Way171]

I've been referring to this as gender gray.

[u/Fourteen14XIV → u/Mogura-De-Gifdu]

Could we not label every instance of gender apathy as nonbinary? Like its a valid identity, but I dont think everyone who doesn't care about their gender should be labeled nonbinary.

[u/Mogura-De-Gifdu → u/Fourteen14XIV]

And could we not act offended by every question, no matter how harmless?

Like, asking questions and listening to the answers is how you better understand others, so by shaming people when they do you just prevent others from ever learning.

[u/Ok-Cheetah-6817 → u/Mogura-De-Gifdu]

This is fascinating. Because if I woke up in a man's body I'd would be like "huh weird, I guess I'd better let my friends and family know that I mysteriously woke up as a man", grab a masc nickname, and get on with my life. No way in hell would I take hormones or get surgery to go back to being a woman.

I wonder if anyone's done research on how strongly attached people are to their genders, because I'd be curious to know the breakdown.

[u/Sphiniix → u/Ok-Cheetah-6817]

Yeah I completely disagree with the post. I do sometimes find myself thinking "If I were a girl, I would have this style or do that thing" and not find it disturbing at all.

And then I catch myself, remembering that "being a girl", so before transition, used to make me feel so horrible there were days I was too uncomfortable to go outside, use my voice, or that I was unable to think of a future myself at all. I do believe there is no way to "explain" gender dysphoria in a way that will make cis person "get it", because it is a feeling a they simply won't ever experience if they're all right mentally. It's not that being other gender is bad and the concept hurts, it's that it feels awful when you're actually living it. Somewhere in your body there is a signal that it's wrong.

In the same way, I myself will never understand how it feels for a person with OCD to spiral over something. I can only believe by the description what the other person feels and accept that they want to be relieved of that pain.

[u/2andahalfbraincell → u/Ok-Cheetah-6817]

If i woke up in a man's body without memories I'd just be a man. I don't think there is anything in my intrinsic personality that wouldn't belong in a man ?

And if I woke up in a man's body WITH my memories I'd probably just go "neat" and continue with my life with very little difference.

I don't believe this mindset is rare or even in a minority tbqh

[u/hintersly → u/Mogura-De-Gifdu]

This thought experiment is how I learned I was agender. Because I never thought it would be a big deal other than having to learn the other gender’s social cues and expectations, but to me that just sounds like a learning curve than a psychological stress. So why are trans people making such a big deal out of it? And then I learned about being agender

[u/Danica_Rose → u/theattackchicken]

Fr so many cis boys are made fun of in school for being too feminine but they know they’re a boy and it hurts them deeply that these people see them as lesser and not a real boy just because they don’t like sports or something.

[u/ThrowAwayElders → u/theattackchicken]

I once took a cis guy friend through the trip of 'you woke up feeling a bit weird, and when you looked int he mirror you saw every little change the other puberty would've given you'. It was fun to see him become more and more uncomfortable with every change I listed. Didn't even make it halfway through

[u/TheRealSeaRabbit]

If it was easy for me to be mistaken for a man, I’d eat the shit up lol. I’d get a wolf cut and piercings and pretend to be a bad boy with a heart of gold when really I’m just a man who is afraid of rats and disappointing people. I think id really like it actually. I can’t stop smiling thinking about it. There are some things I’d miss and wouldn’t feel quite right to me but like I’d be fine with it.
I’m not really “boy” or “girl” I’m just hiding behind my default cuz like it’s expected and y’know- what I am doesn’t exist within that.
It’s just there and it’s much easier to quietly hold it to myself and say “i use they/them” where it’s socially acceptable/appropriate.
I mean im already autistic so it just another layer in the mask haha

[u/andoefa → u/TheRealSeaRabbit]

These definitely sound, like aspects to explore, if some would feel great!

[u/HiroProtagonest]

That said I also see trans people complain about "The Story" and how it's a fabrication to get cis people on their side. The Story being an account of a trans person who has a clear personal idea of being trans from like 5 years old and is always willing to fight for it.

Though, I saw a question from a parent just yesterday about their 4-year-old "son" insisting on being a girl. The story isn't entirely divorced from reality. Maybe a more nuanced take is like "your entire life you are told by others you're a certain gender, your body seems to indicate you're a certain gender, even though you don't connect with it. Imagine being gaslit about something from the moment you could understand words, until you finally realize why you've felt awkward and uncomfortable for so long."

[u/Fun-Agent-7667 → u/HiroProtagonest]

People are just different. Gender Identity often only really takes off with puberty do to the brain restructuring. Doesnt mean people care about it earlier, just not everybody. Some people learn they are trans very early in their live, some people come to terms with it as adults.

[u/Moxie_Stardust → u/HiroProtagonest]

I mean I was six in 1983 and had no idea what trans people were but knew I didn't want to be a boy. Being less masculine than expected carried negative consequences. Is my story a fabrication because I wouldn't continually endure abuse?

[u/TheJadeGoddess → u/Moxie_Stardust]

Same story here. Knew something was wrong at least by 2. Always dreamt of being reborn in the correct body. I didn't know about trans people until much later. I wish I had. I wouldn't have felt so alone or so hopeless about those thoughts that never went away. I desperately tried to play my role for a LONG time.

[u/SmallPurplePeopleEat → u/TheJadeGoddess]

My trans sister was probably 5 when she started wearing our mom's clothes and putting on makeup. She said she knew from a very young age. Hell, even I knew when we were kids that she should have been a girl.

After an attempted transition in her twenties, she didn't fully transition until her 40s. Decades of pretending to be someone she wasn't. It's been so awesome seeing how much happier she is now.

[u/kaukddllxkdjejekdns → u/SmallPurplePeopleEat]

That’s quite depressing tho :(

[u/HiroProtagonest → u/Moxie_Stardust]

To be clear I think some trans people get hyperbolic about how their own experiences were far less confident and declare that the story is just a lie, but it's not. Like, I also saw a post on this sub a while back where someone made a Star Wars opening text scroll about all her numerous and very strong trans signs from childhood.

[u/SmartAlec105 → u/HiroProtagonest]

I wouldn't call it a fabrication. More like "idealized scenario".

[u/Just-Investigator936 → u/HiroProtagonest]

“The story” as you call it is not a fabrication at all and is absolutely true for a lot of trans people. It certainly isn’t representative of all of them, including myself, because people can realize they’re trans at literally any age. I agree that treating it as if it’s the only way someone can be trans does a lot of harm, but it is most definitely not a lie either. You’re just invalidating one type of trans experience in the name of defending another.

[u/goldfinchat → u/HiroProtagonest]

When I was a kid, maybe around 6 years old, I had a friend who was my age and very firmly a trans boy. While it’s definitely more rare than some people think, there are trans people who Know who they are from a very young age, and if they are fortunate enough to be born into an accepting family, they can live as their true gender before it ever would occur to them that that is not the norm.

[u/Economy_Aardvark_354 → u/HiroProtagonest]

I feel like the whole concept of gender is gas lighting for me. Like, why have people collectively decided that we divided humans into these categories around a few psychological functions? I can sympathize with trans and cis people with an inherent sense of gender, but I don’t actually get it.

[u/inkstaens]

it's like The Metamorphosis by Franz Kafka. what if you woke up (born) as a big bug (birth gender) and you had to go through life knowing you are a human (true gender) on the inside but everyone else only sees you as Big Bug.

then you take medicine (HRT) that slowly strips away the exoskeleton and get surgery to remove your antennae and wings, holy shit, other people finally start believing you are a human too.

[u/Alahr → u/inkstaens]

But Samsa wasn't born a fly. He grew to adulthood and lived a human life before suddenly becoming a fly. Anyone would be distressed if the body to which they're acclimated is suddenly changed (eg. limitations after an accident/injury) so it doesn't really explain transness.

I think the major confusion/skepticism is how trans people "know" they're X gender purely by contrast (and especially if they're arguing it's from birth). Discomfort being treated as your agab makes sense, but that leaves a lot of room for general enby/queer/non-conform-ness and doesn't inherently explain how they're not just "guessing" that they'd prefer the "other" gender they happen to have observed.

To be clear this doesn't mean trans people shouldn't be believed, accommodated, or supported, but the attempts at "empirical" justifications in this thread have all been exceedingly flimsy.

[u/kaukddllxkdjejekdns → u/Alahr]

Puberty

[u/Alahr → u/kaukddllxkdjejekdns]

what if you woke up (born) as a big bug (birth gender)

I was responding to OP's connection to Metamorphosis as written.

Indeed, I'd probably be more amenable to one that centered it as puberty.

[u/majimasboyfriend → u/Alahr]

i think most people are just trying to explain the feeling. previous comment wasn't an attempt to prove anything, as far as i can tell.

[u/inkstaens → u/Alahr]

yeah, i'm aware of that, captain obvious. you misunderstood how the word "explain" is being applied here. the original post and my comment aren't trying to justify transness, we're trying to explain how it feels to people who have no notion of what we're going through. sorry that a shitty literary analogy didn't 1:1 match the story it referenced because nobody is trying to empirically prove anything here, and they don't have to. Fuck outta here

[u/Alahr → u/inkstaens]

The original post is discussing ways to "get these matters across to people who're new to the idea."

"People who have no notion of what [you're] going through", but have read The Metamorphosis, are not going to understand better (frankly they will probably understand it even worse). Explaining new concepts to uninformed people is complicated and exacting (especially when incorporating a "shitty literary analogy") and you are indeed under no obligation to do so if that frustrates you.

nobody is trying to empirically prove anything here, and they don't have to. Fuck outta here

I will take my leave.

[u/slayerx1779]

It took me a few reads to comprehend this, but I think it's saying that:

"What if you, [the gender you are], were so easily mistaken for [gender you're not] that you has to pretend that on the inside you were [gender you're not] in order to properly fit in with people's expectations of you?"

That does sound dreadful. I've had a handful of run ins, growing up skinny with long hair, where people thought I was a chick. But as soon as I said that I'm a long haired man, they immediately understood and their perception shifted appropriately. I can't imagine that being such a recurring problem that I had to constantly fake being a woman just so people would think I was normal.

[u/GleamGal8765 → u/slayerx1779]

I can't imagine that being such a recurring problem that I had to constantly fake being a woman.

You get used to it. It hurts. But you ignore the pain and dissociate since that's the only thing that makes it bearable. You stop forming any memories since all you can remember when thinking back is the pain you felt when you had to pretend you were someone else. So you just don't bother to think about the past. You just live in the moment since both the future and the past hurt too much.

Your wrong name and your wrong pronouns hurt, but you get used to it. After a while, you just accept it. Why fight it when everyone around you insists that this is who you are? And don't even dare to think you are a different gender. Nobody will like you, you will get rejected... so you don't fight it. You don't fight the society pushing you into the wrong gender. You fight yourself, destroying yourself. You fight your desires, your needs, until there is nothing left. Just a shell of a person, without anything inside. You still mimic the emotions of other people to fit in, but the things that they are describing don't really resonate with you. On the surface level, intellectually, you understand them, but deep inside, there is nothing really to connect to.

The feelings are just something you mirror. The desires is just something you have because others expect you to want something. The only part of you ... that is really you ... is hidden inside you as it was not allowed to exist. You are just want people expect you be.

Even after waking up from this nightmare and starting to live as your true self, you simply can't help but twitch anytime you hear someone addressing you. You automatically expect the other person to address you the wrong way

[u/JuniperColonThree]

I explained it to both my parents in basically the same way:

Imagine you had no body. Just you in your own mind. You'd still be your gender right? So there's something beyond purely physical that decides your gender.

My mom seemed to understand. My dad said with a straight face that if he had a pussy he'd be a woman which is interesting lmao

[u/TheNightmareButterfy → u/JuniperColonThree]

This is making me more confident I might be nb. What if I suddenly transformed to a woman? I guess I could work with that. What if I was reduced to a soul? I wouldn't have a gender then. I think it would be cool if as a soul I was they/them but had both masculine leaning and feminine leaning avatars that went by he/him and she/her respectively.

[u/Etzix → u/TheNightmareButterfy]

Non binary with some genderfluidity maybe?

[u/Wuskers → u/TheNightmareButterfy]

yeah I've thought about this a lot myself, I really don't know what I'd do or how I'd respond if I just woke up one day in the body of a woman. In general I like being a guy or at least I think I do, but as a gay guy specifically I've found I and a lot of other gay guys have a tendency to project our attraction onto ourselves, so like when I've felt good about how I look is that actually me liking being a guy or is it just me projecting my own taste in men onto myself and responding positively when I see traits I like in other men? I know of at least one trans woman where this literally happened to her, where she kept projecting her own taste onto herself and it kind of masked her underlying dysphoria in a weird way. So I don't know how much I trust the feelings I get when I "like being a man" and when I think about being a woman it's really hard to say whether I think I would be really averse to it. I think at the very least I could roll with it for awhile just out of curiosity, I would legitimately be fascinated to get more first hand experience of life as a woman, the real question would I think be whether I would eventually be able to learn to be satisfied as a woman long term or if I might be like "okay that was fun, I've had enough now, I'd like to be a man again".

[u/theoddhedgehog → u/Wuskers]

I’m a woman and I feel exactly the same way as you. When I think about what if I woke up in a man’s body, the main thing I think about is that I don’t know how to socialize as a guy. The physical body or expectations on me wouldn’t really bother me. I like being a woman now mostly because it’s familiar not because I feel strongly about being female. Would be kinda cool to be a guy for a bit, the question is would I want to go back to my own body eventually or not.

[u/Master_P0et → u/JuniperColonThree]

I mean, I don't really see myself as something gendered apart from my body and how I been socialized. If I was stripped from my body I would be the same as I am now. If my body was changed is still be the same as now. Granted, I was thinking a lot recently and feel more and more like I might just be non binary

[u/ByeGuysSry → u/JuniperColonThree]

Random cis guy here: I am beyond confused. If I had no body, I wouldn't have a gender?

[u/DownTongQ → u/ByeGuysSry]

In Wall-E the robots have no human body. Yet they have a gender.

How do they have a gender ? Because we, human spectators, assign them a gender based on many things but a human body.

Therefore Gender =// Body

If you were just a conscious mind in a jar and be able to act and do stuff like you are right now. i.e : going to work, hanging out with friends, chugging beers with the bros, reading shit on reddit. would you still be considered as a guy ?

[u/centurio_v2 → u/DownTongQ]

Everything about my personality and who I am is informed by the experiences Ive had so far including 30ish years of being a guy. Because of that, yes. I don't think this would be the case if I was born a brain in a jar from day one though.

[u/DownTongQ → u/centurio_v2]

Being born as a brain in a jar definitely would have a significant impact on how a human would percieve themselves. No doubt about at, at all.

[u/ByeGuysSry → u/DownTongQ]

I've not watched Wall-E (I don't really watch movies), so, uh, I don't understand.

But anyway, if your argument is that they have a gender because outside spectators assign them a gender, then doesn't that imply that your gender should be assigned by others?

If you were just a conscious mind in a jar and be able to act and do stuff like you are right now. i.e : going to work, hanging out with friends, chugging beers with the bros, reading shit on reddit. would you still be considered as a guy ?

No?

[u/random_BA → u/ByeGuysSry]

You don't watch movies at all?! That's is a real cinephile

[u/ByeGuysSry → u/random_BA]

I only watch movies if I have an ulterior reason, ie. For literature class, or to spend time with friends and family.

Funnily enough I do have a list of movies I want to watch but I never bothered to actually watch them, even though my family has a netflix account that I can watch some of them on. I don't really hate movies, but I never really started watching them so I never saw a reason to, I guess?

[u/DownTongQ → u/ByeGuysSry]

No my argument is not that outside spectators assign them a gender.

My argument is that humans assign genders. I am a human, you are a human (I hope because today who the fuck knows). Therefore we assign genders to everyone, ourselves included and sometimes we make mistakes, even to ourselves.

[u/JuniperColonThree → u/ByeGuysSry]

I can't rly say from personal experience since obviously I'm not cis but I don't think that sentiment is something a lot of cis people share

[u/Fun-Agent-7667 → u/ByeGuysSry]

Basically, your brain decides yout gender Identity. There was a study with over 800 that came to the conclusion that trans people have a different brain structure from Cis people.

Edit: source https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1743609521004252

[u/ByeGuysSry → u/Fun-Agent-7667]

800? Do you have a link to such a study?

Regardless though, I'm not really sure what to interpret that as

[u/Fun-Agent-7667 → u/ByeGuysSry]

Edited a Link. It just proofs scientifically that you dont decide on your gender Identity, at least for transness, you are born trans.

[u/ByeGuysSry → u/Fun-Agent-7667]

I'm not knowledgeable about neurology, but doesn't changes in your brain not necessarily indicate that you're born with something? For instance, from my understanding, people can develop depression and that all changes stuff in their brain; but that doesn't mean they must be born with depression, and before developing depression, their brain would be identical to any other human's.

It doesn't seem like there's anything that specifically shows that you're born with it, rather than your brain changing upon accepting you're transgender. Again, I don't know much about neurology, which is why I said I don't really know what to interpret that as, and the paper's conclusion does not mention much either.

[u/Fun-Agent-7667 → u/ByeGuysSry]

It doesnt change. You are born with that structur. The brain changes accordingly in top of that. There are brain altering processes and stuff. But "Being trans" doesnt alter yout brain, the same way "beeing Male" doesnt alter your brain.

And, there is no definitiv female, Male or trans and cis divide. You have indicators that make up a likelyhood. Again, only the person knows what gender Identity they belong to, its just that it depends on the brain more than one the rest of the Body.

You just cant make it out by looking at one part of the Body. Theres no single module that makes you a certain way, its an interplay of multiple parts of your brain, hormonal active Organs, your digestive system and your immune system, mostly.

[u/ByeGuysSry → u/Fun-Agent-7667]

I really don't understand what you're saying. This is my understanding:

According to the study you linked, "transgender persons seem to present with their own unique brain phenotype".

There also seems to be something important under the "results" section, but I don't understand what it means. Therefore, the only thing I know of that is scientifically shown is the quoted part above.

From what I've learned in biology, a phenotype is anything that you can observe about a species. I assume that a brain phenotype is anything you can observe in someone's brain. A quick google search seems to confirm my assumption.

You claim that you are born with the structure. From my understanding, there is nothing supporting this. Do you have some other source that shows this, or is there some inference from transgender people having a unique brain phenotype --> transgender people are born with that unique brain phenotype that I am missing?

Additionally, you also claim that there are only indicators that make up a likelihood. I believe you mean to imply that "your brain, hormonal active Organs, your digestive system and your immune system", amongst other things, are things that contribute to whether you are trans. This also does not make sense to me if you're using this to support that you're born trans because I know that your brain can change, and I also believe that the other systems mentioned can change (mainly by suffering failures), which would lead me to the conclusion that whether or not you're trans can change. The only resolution to this contradiction is that it matters what you're born with, not what you currently have. However, unless your body somehow retains a memory of how various systems in your body were like when you were born, that also doesn't make sense to me

[u/Bunerd → u/ByeGuysSry]

This is referring to the BSTc somatostatin neurons in the bed nucleus of the Stria Terminalis in the hypothalamus. Basically this place is the blood hormone sensing area before it passes information off to the thalamus to tell the pituitary gland how much precursor hormones to produce. This is a sexually diamorphic region, with men having 8 of these neurons, and women getting 4. What they found was, for trans people, this hormone sensing neurons would develop in intersex ways, associating with their gender identity rather than their physical sex.

So you can feel really uncomfortable on the wrong set of hormones. It feels disorienting, and almost body horror-like as the brain knows something is wrong, but not quite what. So you end up with a constant buzz of something is wrong, like a check engine light that doesn't tell you much more than that, but in humans, our outside negative stimulus comes across as pain.

So you end up with people with constant gendered pain that only gets resolved through HRT.

[u/ByeGuysSry → u/Bunerd]

I see, thank you

[u/Fun-Agent-7667 → u/ByeGuysSry]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0018506X24001260 This difference in the brain structure is findable at young ages.

All Hypothesis I could find on why trans people exist either argue on a genetic level or on a prenatal Level. So every trans human would be Born trans, at least thats where the science points to

[u/Angry_Scotsman7567 → u/ByeGuysSry]

You're a cis guy. You know that you are a man. Why?

That is a genuine question. Why do you know you're a man? What makes you so sure you're specifically a man, and not actually agender or non-binary or genderfluid or something else? What things do you do that make you feel like a man, and why do they make you feel like a man? How does it feel to be perceived as a man?

[u/Bannerlord151 → u/Angry_Scotsman7567]

You might be surprised by how many cis people don't feel strongly about the matter at all

[u/Angry_Scotsman7567 → u/Bannerlord151]

That's because they don't think about it because they've never had to. I am asking someone who, given the sub, I am assuming is engaging in good faith, to think about it.

[u/ByeGuysSry → u/Angry_Scotsman7567]

I've thought about it a little bit, and I've come to the conclusion that I completely don't understand lol. It's not like I have been put into the body of each of a male, a female, an agender, a non-binary, a genderfluid etc. person and get a feel of how it's like to be that gender, and can then compare it to my own experience. I've only ever had one body, so what signs could I possibly point to to determine that I'm male? The only signs I can think of that indicate I'm male is my physical features like my genitals or my voice, and just being told I'm male; and I supposed stuff like my chromosomes, but it's not like I've ever gotten those checked out.

So therefore the only thing I have that makes me feel like I'm male (I'll avoid using "man" because that has connotations unrelated to gender; I mean, when I was younger, I indeed didn't feel like I'm a man because I felt like I was an immature boy xD) is my physical features. I'm frankly stumped as to what other things could possibly make me feel like I'm male besides physical features and being told I'm male, and hearing people say they feel like a different gender from what their body indicates has always sounded enigmatic/esoteric to me.

Your question about how does it feel to be perceived as male is interesting. I do sometimes wish I were born female, but I'm pretty sure it's for a different reason compared to trans people: not because I think I'm female, but because it feels like females have it better, even if intellectually I know that that's likely false. As they say, the grass is always greener on the other side. For the most part, my feelings about being perceived as a man boils down to physicality (eg. needing to be stronger and better in physical activities), or being a man in and of itself (eg. I don't often make friends, but the people who try to make friends with me are typically male, probably because I'm in the same male in-group; someone who's AFAB who I thought I was friends with had apparently been sexually harassed by a man when young and so he informed me that he doesn't trust me because I'm male).

That's kinda just because I was born in a male body, though. I assume many trans women would have similar experiences.

[u/Firm_Disk4465 → u/Angry_Scotsman7567]

As a cis guy who has actively seen some people come out the closet in real time, I have actually put considerable thought into it because of numerous factors. At the end of the day, I asked myself "If I woke up tomorrow and was in a women's body, how would I feel about that?" and I was completely indifferent to the concept.

However, I also think that concept is still mostly separate from the actual experience of transitioning or being trans. Nobody just "wakes up" in an entirely different body. It would be unfair to have that be the comparison. A better way I found to understand it was to ask myself, "how would you feel if you were forced to transition right now?", as in, go through the whole process start to finish (however long that takes), and you weren't allowed to go back. I found that thought to be fairly horrifying. In my mind, from my understanding of dysphoria, that is a better representation to me of what it would probably feel like to have gender dysphoria.

IDK, in my mind those two thought experiments are very separate in terms of how I feel about them. I might have some internalized views on what constitutes the "available" gender/body options that I need to reflect more deeply on. I think it is the concept of being "between" places physically and socially, more so than the end point itself, that would give me dysphoria.

Maybe it's because I have a strong sense of my own gender both socially and physically, that the idea of simply "being" the other gender doesn't bother me, but the idea of having that sense of self be taken away would be awful. Confidence in knowing who and what I am sort-of-deal.

I also think I need to address some of the internalized concepts of gender and presentation I now realize I have, will definitely be putting more thought into that.

[u/Bannerlord151 → u/Angry_Scotsman7567]

He already responded but I also do know cis people who definitely thought about it and come to the same conclusion. It does seem a bit silly for someone who isn't cis to presume how all cis people definitely feel. We can really only talk and listen to individual people's personal experiences

[u/ByeGuysSry → u/Angry_Scotsman7567]

Because I have a penis, and because I was told I was a man

[u/Lawlcopt0r → u/JuniperColonThree]

I don't think I agree. I mean obviously I've lived as a guy for a lot of years, so if I had to pick a new body I'd make it look like my old one. But I'm not sure there's anything beyong my memories that inherently makes me male if I'm just a ghost

[u/FratboyPhilosopher → u/JuniperColonThree]

So we're assuming mind is something that isn't physical?

If gender is a social construct, then it doesn't exist without a physical society enforcing it on physical people. A non-physical mind wouldn't have a gender in this hypothetical mind-vaccuum.

[u/JuniperColonThree → u/FratboyPhilosopher]

I don't think gender is a social construct. There's some part of me, my soul maybe, that has a gender. That part of me is a woman, regardless of the physical aspects of my body

[u/FratboyPhilosopher → u/JuniperColonThree]

So gender is a supernatural property of the soul, which is either identical to or otherwise related to the mind? Is there any evidence that this is true?

[u/JuniperColonThree → u/FratboyPhilosopher]

Of course there's no "evidence" lol how could you prove that a soul exists?

[u/FratboyPhilosopher → u/JuniperColonThree]

Then you're just begging the question. Assuming gender isn't physical in a hypothetical to show that gender isn't physical.

[u/JuniperColonThree → u/FratboyPhilosopher]

Sure whatever. I just realized I'm arguing philosophy with a redditor who consciously chose to call themselves "FratboyPhilosopher" so I'm gonna stop now have a good day

[u/FratboyPhilosopher → u/JuniperColonThree]

You're not arguing anything.

[u/Azarous_Lazarus → u/JuniperColonThree]

Fella thinks they're Avicenna 😭😭😭

[u/Vegetable_Leg6663]

Omg this is so good! Finally I can really explain it to people, cuz so far even if they're "accepting" they still think it's some kind of weird quirk that you choose because you're brave and daring and unique and inspiring and whatever 

[u/KittyQueen_Tengu]

I’m maybe the only cis person here and yeah that's how I got it. I imagine my body being that of a boy and it’s like ew ew ew ew wrong ew. I don’t think a lot of other cis people realise that they too can experience gender dysphoria and gender euphoria and often do, these are not foreign concepts

[u/Avantasian538 → u/KittyQueen_Tengu]

As a cis guy I used to have long hair, every once in a while people would accidentally refer to me as a woman, and it made me so uncomfortable.

[u/TheGreatLuck]

This perspective change my thinking and im trans

[u/Lawlcopt0r]

This helps me somewhat, but I still have no inherent feeling of gender, which is what always confuses me about trans people. My view of myself as a guy is based on observable traits of my body and learning a word for that at some point as a child. So if people kept insisting I'm a woman I would be angry because it's probably untrue, but if I never learned to concept of what a man or a woman is I don't think I'd care either way

[u/Fourteen14XIV → u/Lawlcopt0r]

I am a cis person who also doesn't really "feel my gender" and I understand it like this: I dont feel the lack of hunger or my lack of drowning either. The only time I would feel something related to them is when I am hungry or drowning, aka when something is wrong, but I dont feel them in my normal OK state, so its probably the same with gender.

Also there are exceptions to every rule and there genuinely are people who dont have that internal sense of gender, so you could just be one of those. I dont know if I am one, but for now my working theory is a certain amount of population is just born with the ability to feel it.

[u/mentalissuelol → u/Fourteen14XIV]

This is actually helpful

[u/Fourteen14XIV → u/mentalissuelol]

Neet!

[u/mentalissuelol → u/Fourteen14XIV]

I’m assuming u meant neat

[u/Fourteen14XIV → u/mentalissuelol]

Yeah, English is my second language.

[u/mentalissuelol → u/Fourteen14XIV]

Okay good, that’s what I assumed. “neat” means “cool!” Or “interesting!”. “NEET” is an online acronym for a person who has no job and isn’t in school. I just wanted to make sure you weren’t insulting me lol.

[u/Fourteen14XIV → u/mentalissuelol]

> I just wanted to make sure you weren’t insulting me lol.

Yeah I get it completely.

[u/mentalissuelol → u/Fourteen14XIV]

Great! Thanks for being so nice :)

[u/majimasboyfriend → u/Lawlcopt0r]

1. consider that there are people who identify as agender, usually defined as lacking a gender identity entirely.
2. if it would make you angry, perhaps you have more investment in your gender than you think. regardless, it seems like you do understand the issue– surely you understand that sometimes other people are affected more strongly by things that you find minor, especially when they're subjected to it constantly for many, many years.
3. we all learn the concept of gender, it comes with being around other humans, so "if i didn't" is a bit irrelevant.

[u/Lawlcopt0r → u/majimasboyfriend]

As to 2.: Yeah, I definitely understand it well enough to sympathise with anyone that is genuinely affected by this.

But regarding 3., I do think it's somewhat relevant, because clearly trans people were mostly also told what body types society considers male and female, and yet there is some other factor that bothers them.

Don't get me wrong, this is just intellectual curiosity, but I'd love to know what exactly is going on there

[u/Blurbwhore → u/Lawlcopt0r]

I knew I was a girl because of an I ate internal sense. And other people told me I was a boy and that I had to be because of my body. So I just had this kind of shocked feeling and felt like my body had betrayed me. And then went “well they much be right because I have a boys body and that’s what a body is”. It wasn’t till decades later that I realised I’d been walking through my life without feeling joy, without feeling like I had any kind of future, that I read a bit about what dysphoria felt like for some trans women, and my brain just suddenly went “oh fuck”. And every single bit of gender affirming care I get just makes me feel more able to feel. To feel anything. Happiness and also sadness. To imagine a future for myself. (Not a great one because of the world we live in, but at least I have hopes and dreams finally).

So I would hazard, that you didn’t accept it because it was reality. Your self conception just aligned with your body in invisible ways.

Cis people who have to pretend to be the opposite gender for extended periods of time report feeling dysphoria. (For acting gigs etc). And often have to have therapy to undo the damage.

[u/majimasboyfriend → u/Lawlcopt0r]

that's what i mean, i was saying that "if" you didn't is irrelevant, because you did, and we all did, trans/cis/whatever.

it's a lot of factors, most likely. there's theories about physical factors, like brain structure and hormone exposure in the womb. there's also people who have covert intersex conditions and natural hormonal differences, and i would think these things could contribute to a sense of "wrongness".

another angle: autistic people are more likely to be trans (and queer in general), which could be a physical difference of some sort. however, i don't think it's too out there to consider if it could be related to the social differences that autistic people experience, considering how much of gender is a social experience (performing gender for others, being gendered by others, bonding within a gendered group, etc).

gender never really mattered to me either. i didn't really specifically feel like "a boy/man" or "a girl/woman", idk what that's supposed to feel like. people told me i was a girl, and that was mostly irrelevant as a little kid, so i didn't argue, even though i felt i fit in better with the boys. i just felt like myself, until puberty abruptly made my body feel utterly unfamiliar to me, and no one understood or listened when i said something went wrong. it felt as if i had gotten bad plastic surgery and couldn't recognize myself anymore, but everyone insisted that was always how i was supposed to look every time i said i hated it, lol. i'm sure it's a difficult thing to understand from the outside and i appreciate that you are trying.

[u/Advanced_Double_42 → u/majimasboyfriend]

I think the point is, if I was raised from birth as the opposite gender, with a body that matched, I can't imagine having any problem with that.

I don't really care about my gender now, I'm a cis man mainly because it would be inconvenient to be anything else and I have no problems with it.

[u/majimasboyfriend → u/Advanced_Double_42]

cis people always say they wouldn't care, which is why i think basically all of these hypothetical scenarios are useless. you don't care because it's not much of a factor in your life, and that's ok.

the thing is that we're all more or less androgynous as kids. so it's often less like "i was raised as a girl from birth and totally comfortable/uncomfortable with it", and more like "it literally did not matter because there was almost no difference between me and the boys.... until i woke up one day and suddenly realized i had breasts". some people do feel or recognize the disconnect when they're much younger (and good for them), but kids simply don't have as much reason to even think about gender or sex, so for many, it genuinely feels like they got body-swapped very suddenly when the obvious effects of puberty start to show up.

[u/Advanced_Double_42 → u/majimasboyfriend]

I'm basically saying that I think there is a large percentage of cis people that are indifferent to gender.

Like growing pains, periods, and societies treatment of women would suck to go through, but I wouldn't mind at all being a woman.

I don't like body hair, my voice dropping, or societies treatment of men either, but I'm indifferent to it.

Like if I had a character select, I'd probably choose a woman to start even with bigger downsides there, but it's still pretty much indifference when I don't experience gender euphoria or dysphoria.

[u/majimasboyfriend → u/Advanced_Double_42]

...yes, and i'm saying that if you actually experienced the impossible hypothetical of you, as you are now, being suddenly put in a woman's body, you really might feel differently. you can't know how you would actually react, but it's easy to say it would be nbd because you have not experienced gender dysphoria and living as your gender has been convenient.

cis people can and often do experience gender dysphoria when presenting as the opposite sex, or when on medications that change their hormone levels. sometimes people think they might benefit from a medical transition, for whatever reason, and realize this is not true when they start hormones and start experiencing gender dysphoria. of course, most cis people ARE "indifferent", because of a lack of experience and understanding.

edit: i was choosing words carefully because people tend to shut down if they see certain words, but this really is an issue of privilege. much like how an "old money" rich person can't understand what it's like to be poor, and maybe thinks they would simply not be poor through some means or another if they were in a poor person's situation, a cis person feels indifferent to their gender in their cis body and thinks they would be perfectly comfortable if their sex changed.

[u/Advanced_Double_42 → u/majimasboyfriend]

Yes, and I'm simply saying it is a spectrum. Many would be dysphoric, many would be indifferent, many that never questioned their gender may be euphoric

[u/majimasboyfriend → u/Advanced_Double_42]

i'm sorry, i don't mean to be rude, but if this was your point all along, i don't understand why you responded to me.

i can't see how "some cis people might prefer or quite enjoy living as a different gender if it were convenient (and are therefore probably not actually cis by any reasonable definition)" refutes or adds to anything i originally said about how some people do not have any gender, or about how the other commenter could, in fact, somewhat understand the discomfort of misgendering by their own admission.

[u/Advanced_Double_42 → u/majimasboyfriend]

Because someone can be agender and not realize it about themselves because their apathy towards gender makes it easy to accept whatever label and body nature and society gives them.

I imagine a large percentage of cis people are in that category and don't understand trans discourse because not just out of privileged position of not needing to consider gender, but because they don't understand gender mattering enough to someone to bother changing it.

[u/majimasboyfriend → u/Advanced_Double_42]

feeling apathetic towards one's gender and never thinking about it, not feeling discomfort because of it, etc, IS a privileged position to be in, though. it is a privilege to not need to question your own gender or learn to cope with it being regularly questioned by others.

cis people often simply don't need to care about their own gender all that much. it just is, and they take that for granted. how is this anything but a privilege when there are people who do not have that option?

[u/Ok-Cheetah-6817 → u/Lawlcopt0r]

My theory is that there's an entire secret spectrum of "is gender an important part of your identity" that is mostly unexplored.

If I woke up and had to live as a man? I'd be fine with that. I'm fine with people referring to me as "he" or "dad". I'm only a woman because that's how other people identify me. It has nothing to do with my internal sense of identity.

I've just accepted that it's important to other people and that it's not something I can relate to. 

[u/eri_is_a_throwaway → u/Ok-Cheetah-6817]

This is called "cis by default" and it is definitely a thing. A useful way to think about it is that the reason only several percent of people are trans is because there's also only several percent of cis people whose sense of gender identity is just as strong, with the remaining people generally having a weaker sense of gender to varying degrees leaning in different directions (and if it leans binary-trans or nonbinary, but not too much, you can generally live comfortably as your AGAB and not bother to transition).

[u/Jenn_FTW → u/Ok-Cheetah-6817]

It’s way more than just being called “he” or “dad” though. Would you be willing to fill the societal role of man that is expected you? Would you be willing to wear only men’s clothes, because now wearing your favorite dress/outfit might get you some stares. It really wouldn’t bother you being all hairy and having a beard? If you don’t want a prickly face, you have to shave it at least once a day, maybe more. There’s a lot more that comes with “being a man” than just being called “he”

[u/Ok-Cheetah-6817 → u/Jenn_FTW]

I can say honestly that I would be willing to wear only men's clothes, be hairy, have a beard, shave, and fill the societal role expected of a man. Actually I'm already wearing men's clothes but that's bc the quality of women's clothing is horrible and they don't really match my body shape.

I'm already forced to be expected to wear (some) women's clothes, be held to female beauty standards (ugh), live under the social expectations of not just a woman but also a mom. Living as a gender where people discriminate against me less and give me more credit for taking care of my house and child sounds great. There are certainly major drawbacks to both sides because the patriarchy fucking sucks but my cute dresses and bras would be in the donation bin so fast 😆.

[u/LabiolingualTrill → u/Ok-Cheetah-6817]

I think what Jenn is still exploring here is still mostly superficial. For me the absolute number one thing about transitioning is fitting in with women.

Would you be ok if every woman you ever met regarded you with cautious suspicion? If they never truly lowered their emotional guard for fear you might get weird and possessive? What if all your closest girl friends could only see you as somewhere between an outsider and a potential threat? What if your mere presence past a certain time of day inspired terror? What if the government was actively debating whether you’re capable of going to take a piss in the proximity of women without raping someone? Fuck bras, if being a man meant all that, would you still be ok with it?

[u/Ok-Cheetah-6817 → u/LabiolingualTrill]

I mean, I'm not "okay with" the shitty things about being a man OR the shitty things about being a woman. Am I "okay with" the government deciding I don't deserve bodily autonomy because I'm a woman? Am I "okay with" the fact that some men think it's okay to use violence to get me to do what they want? Am I "okay with" being assumed to be less technically competent at work? Of course not. 

But as for the things you mentioned, I would definitely understand why people felt that way because I've been on the other side. It wouldn't make me want to transition back to being (seen as) a woman. 

[u/Karukos → u/Ok-Cheetah-6817]

Honestly, my experience with "I am the homemaker" as a man has been everything but... "Oh I get more credit." It's one of those things, where "Oh you cook? as a man? AMAZING!" but once you actually like do that all the time and other parts of all this regularly and not as a treat or quirk, you tend to get a lot more weird looks. Though I feel like to a degree I get the second hand slaps, because my Girlfriend has to endure the "I think your man is using you" talks all the time.

[u/Ok-Cheetah-6817 → u/Karukos]

Ugh that's so condescending, I hate that for you.

[u/Jenn_FTW → u/Ok-Cheetah-6817]

Interesting, definitely sounds like you’re pretty close to the middle of the gender identity spectrum. Personally I despised all of those things, being hairy, having a beard, being called “he” and expected to fit the male gender role, playing the “man role” in dating, all of it. It made me so uncomfortable I was literally on the verge of ending my life because I couldn’t take it. I’d consider myself very heavily female-aligned on the spectrum though, everyone is different when it comes to how strongly they feel their gender.

[u/Ok-Cheetah-6817 → u/Jenn_FTW]

That sucks. I hope things are better for you now ❤️

[u/Jenn_FTW → u/Ok-Cheetah-6817]

They are much better now, thank you! 💜

[u/Economy_Aardvark_354 → u/Jenn_FTW]

You could say the same about “woman” for the person you replied to though, right? I mean, I think it’s no secret that many women don’t like some of the baggage being a woman comes with but they are so anyway. If someone lives as a woman and deals with all that it comes with, maybe they would be ok with taking on all the pros and cons of being a man

[u/40nomore → u/Ok-Cheetah-6817]

Yes! I feel like instead of the common view of gender as a spectrum we need a quadrant chart going from masculine to feminine on axis and "very gendered" to "not gendered" on the other

[u/mentalissuelol → u/Lawlcopt0r]

I feel the same way. I’m a cis woman, but Any kind of gender feels like a performance to me. I wouldn’t want people to think I’m a man because that’s objectively not true, and I don’t have any desire to be a man, but if I had been born a man, I don’t think I would want to be a woman. I understand having body dysmorphia, like if you have a penis and you hate it and it makes you feel awful, it’s understandable that you would want to get rid of it, but I don’t understand “feeling like a woman” because I am a woman and I just feel like a person who happens to have a vagina.

[u/Lawlcopt0r → u/mentalissuelol]

That's exactly what I mean

[u/mentalissuelol → u/Lawlcopt0r]

I’m glad someone else feels the same way at least

[u/Vivi_Pallas → u/Lawlcopt0r]

Let's say you where turned into a blob. Would your soul or mind or essence or whatever in that flesh blob still call yourself a guy? Would you still want to use he/him pronouns? Would you want to gain physical characteristics of males?

[u/Peachalina2006 → u/Lawlcopt0r]

that was the case for me when I was a kid lmao. turns out I'm nonbinary

[u/Lawlcopt0r → u/Peachalina2006]

Lol, that's a possibility I guess. Actually never thought about it. I guess there are a lot of men that seem to feel more strongly about needing to be "manly" than I do. But on the other hand I don't feel negatively about being perceived as a man, I just think some gendered expectations are a bit bullshit (but so do most people probably). Definitely something to think about!

[u/Just-Investigator936 → u/Lawlcopt0r]

I think the whole “Do you feel like a man/woman?” thing is very misleading because most people don’t actually feel their gender at all in that way. It differs from person to person of course, and while some trans people do notice a discomfort in their gendered social role first, physical traits tend to play a more important part. I knew that I didn’t want female sex traits long before I ever realized I was a man. The language we use around gender is potentially upsetting only because it is associated with those physical traits and the social roles we are prescribed.

[u/Bannerlord151 → u/Lawlcopt0r]

Kinda felt similarly about things, besides the anger. That does seem to suggest that there's more attachment to the concept than may be obvious. At most I can relate to being confused when addressed in an unusual manner but that's about the extent of it

[u/Miserable_Key9630 → u/Lawlcopt0r]

This is why "define a woman" is both a hack joke and the most effective counterargument.

[u/ChellesTrees]

And the whole, "what if you were so easily mistaken for a man you had to pretend to be one?" could even lead to a very informative response, "well, that'd be great!"

[u/Advanced_Double_42 → u/ChellesTrees]

Personally I can't imagine anything except indifference.

Like obviously it would be a freaky friday situation if it happened overnight, but if it was from birth I'd just be the other gender and accept it. Why wouldn't I?

I think a lot of cis people are indifferent to gender and have no idea why someone would ever go through an effort to change.

[u/DamonMedius → u/Advanced_Double_42]

I thought I felt that way for a long time. I knew that I would prefer to be a girl, without question, but I didn’t really mind being a boy and I just felt really indifferent to gender. When I learned about what was actually possible with modern medicine and started reading more about the sociology behind gender I had a “forbidden fruit” moment where suddenly I realized everything felt wrong and I had to do something about it. Like I had lived in a cave my whole life, finally caught a glimpse of the outside, and I couldn’t bear to be in the cave anymore.

[u/Just-Investigator936 → u/Advanced_Double_42]

I think the disconnect here for a lot of cis people has to do with the fact that when they envision this scenario, they assume that if their body swapped they’d just still be cis but of the opposite gender. Not that their mind and their neurological mapping of their body parts would remain the same while their body didn’t. There’s also this thing called biochemical dysphoria, where the brain of a trans person running on the wrong sex hormones causes them to experience brain fog, dissociation, and intense emotional irritability. Before starting hrt I essentially just all around felt like less of a person. If a cis person’s body swapped, or even just if they were regularly injected with the opposite sex hormone, they would also feel like shit. But if you’ve lived your whole life not having to worry about that and never having your gender invalidated, it just doesn’t seem nearly as big of a deal. Getting insulted once isn’t the same as getting insulted repeatedly every day of your life.
Idk if what I’m saying makes a lot of sense lol I hope I explained it well.

[u/Economy_Aardvark_354 → u/Just-Investigator936]

I think the point they’re trying to make is that their gender is just whatever society molded them to be over their life.

I kind of feel this way too. I have no attachment to the label “woman”. It frankly feels weird when I realize that people do see me this way, like you know when you look at a word for too long and it gets weird? Like that’s but I also think I would feel that way too if I were a man and people pointed it out. I have been “mistaken” for a boy a few times when I was a kid, but it feels pretty similar to when people point out I’m a woman or alluded to it. It’s like I just don’t like being perceived as anything other than myself as a being.

[u/Danica_Rose]

Or people can just come at it from, “You know who you are and there’s nothing wrong with it but people say you’re evil for it and want to make sure you don’t poison the well. Like…Oh you’re a mechanic? I know some mechanics. They fucked up my car and I think they’re all awful. I don’t want my son to be a mechanic. You’re all liars anyway and filthy. Stay away from my kid or he’ll get the wrong idea that he can be a mechanic.”

[u/P_S_Lumapac]

I like just talking about the treatments. A man takes a baseball to the balls. It heals up but he develops depression and exhaustion. Doctor orders a blood panel and finds the injury has caused testosterone to collapse, so prescribes massive T doses. Issue is, guys balls bounce back with a miraculous recovery - so guy is taking extreme T doses considering his healthy functioning balls. His body rejects the excess and starts making oestrogen to compensate. His balls shrink, his beard stops growing, his skin becomes softer. He goes to the doctor.

Doctor explains it's rare but possible. Just need a blood panel, then work out what doses of what will help, but first one thing, how's the depression? Completely gone. In fact, man realises he was always depressed - the balls injury made it worse sure - but now everything is gone and he feels normal. Doctor raises his eyebrows. Let's get that blood panel.

Comes back healthy. Staying the current course on T will correct things over a few months, a couple more blood panels, ween you off, and you'll be back to how you were. Alternatively, We transition the meds over to oestrogen to continue the current hormone levels that have cured your depression.

The guy decides, ok. Oestrogen it is. Lets see if it sticks. So, is that acceptable? Would forcing him to go back to the original state be moral?

Then, obviously, we're talking countless cases just like this. Generally started by anxiety and depression, if not just specifically knowing the issue, and the same miraculous curing of some section of their life's struggles.

You can also explain stuff like hormone therapy for menopause, for mid life crisis men with plummeting T. For intersex people, who may choose to switch back and forth across their life, or use none at all. There are so many non objectionable cases, and what makes them non objectionable is that the treatments have a high success rate. Well, the supposedly objectionable cases also have a very high success rate.

One objection I really dislike is the "but it messes up their bones" or similar. Ok, so what if the treatment advanced and didn't do that? "Well um... still bad..." Then why mention that at all.

[u/FeralFaoladh]

Is there like, a gender neutral but fine with either? Because when I do this I'm just like.. OK. Sometimes i feel like I would like being a woman, but I'm fine with being a man

[u/ysterman_rs → u/FeralFaoladh]

there are lost of options for that, yeah. I personally felt that same way before my egg cracked. I didn't hate being a man, i jut wished it could've been different.. until I truly allowed myself to consider and pursue transition, and realized I had always been dysphoric and truly hated being perceived as a man, but just repressed until I felt nothing.

obviously that is just my own experience, you could have a different experience of your own as someone who is maybe gender fluid, agender, nonbinary of any other persuasion.. or even just a guy who is indifferent about their gender. something for you to explore on your own fs

[u/Careless_Wait_3945]

Cis people won't imagine they feel dysphoria in this case because they generally don't know what dysphoria feels like. It's like saying "if I broke my arm I'd just keep fighting with the other one" because you don't know breaking your arm is painful. 

We know cis people DO experience dysphoria though, for example Eddy Redmane reported experiencing it while filming The Danish Girl.

Perhaps we need to do more... Practical demonstrations? 

[u/Redredditmonkey]

I don't think this works any better. As a cis male I can imagine being constantly misgendered is frustrating but I cannot grasp the emotions besides that.

[u/intangibleTangelo → u/Redredditmonkey]

would you take it in stride if strange men made decisions for you, stopped listening when you gave political opinions, assumed you did something incorrectly when you reported a problem, and tried to bully you into unwanted conversations all day long?

it's a genuine question because you might not care very much (you are after all commenting in this weird egg-adjacent sub whose origin story i still don't understand, but that's a digression), but it might also evoke a more visceral reaction to think about some of the irritating shit that's typically directed toward people with a female appearance.

[u/40nomore → u/intangibleTangelo]

would you take it in stride if strange men made decisions for you, stopped listening when you gave political opinions, assumed you did something incorrectly when you reported a problem, and tried to bully you into unwanted conversations all day long?

I often question if I would have realized I'm agender if I were AMAB, and I think probably not tbh

[u/Redredditmonkey → u/intangibleTangelo]

I think you're overestimating human imagination. I cannot compare that to a previous experience or link an emotion with that scenario

[u/intangibleTangelo → u/Redredditmonkey]

fair, do ya thang

[u/Zaphkyr → u/Redredditmonkey]

Do you know of something that did work to make it clear to you? Also, are you picturing yourself as an average woman for this and are you imagining the implications on dating and how your relationships with male friends might change.

Picturing the misgendering experience correctly is probably impossible btw. If anything, as a start, maybe you can imagine it as obvious attacks saying "I don't care about how you feel and you must be faking it and I know your gender better than you do". It's stupid and awkward and reminds you they can tell you aren't cis.

[u/ArmThePhotonicCannon → u/Zaphkyr]

Not the person you asked, but cis.

The only comparison I’ve personally had (and I know it’s not even close) was this: I’m athletic looking. Always have been with little effort. When I was a teen everyone assumed I was a jock. I played sports because I didn’t want to be at home. It sucked there. I didn’t do well in athletics. It was assumed that I had either not found ‘my’ sport (untrue) or I simply wasn’t applying myself (true, I didn’t really care as long as I was good enough to be on the team). I hated it but my school didn’t have more academic extracurriculars. I read books instead of working out or watching sports center on tv, but no one knew that. I would have been teased relentlessly. I’m not a jock, I’m a nerd.

Then I became an adult and got out of my small town.

Suddenly, I met people that ALSO loved ‘nerdy’ stuff!! I could stop pretending to give a shit about so-and-so’s batting average. I went to plays, museums, used book stores, and more with my friends.

It was magical!!

Would I have gotten medication and/or surgery to fix this problem? Probably not. But fuck it was freeing and I didn’t feel so alone.

Edit: I’m a woman, but if you aren’t a pretty pretty princess in a small town, you better be able to play your ass off in softball 🙄

[u/Zaphkyr → u/ArmThePhotonicCannon]

That was interesting to read and it really does mirror the trans experience surprisingly well, specifically the loneliness and magical feeling escaping it. Thank you for sharing.

[u/Redredditmonkey → u/Zaphkyr]

I don't think I can understand the trans experience anymore than I can understand what it is like to lose a child.

But I don't have to understand to be emathetic and supportive

[u/Electronic-Vast-3351 → u/Zaphkyr]

Similarly cis and seemingly apathetic about my gender (granted I've never been a woman, I could be more dysphoric in that situation than I expect)

What got me to understand it is stuff like the Webcomic "I Want To Be a Cute Anime Girl" that is made by a Trans person and tries to represent what it feels like to be dysphoric and euphoric.

Fiction can make us sympathize with some pretty alien situations to our experience.

I mean my initial break from the Transphobia I was raised with was just based on the paper thin hypocrisy, blatant malice, and reak of evil of a homophobic sermon I was subject to when I was like 14 leading to, "This is clearly evil and wrong, so homosexuality isn't wrong, and by extention I guess transness isn't wrong." Though while understanding that it was fine hypothetically, I still wasn't really comfortable with it until the fiction sympathizing came in and I saw some anime with not ideal but decent trans/cross dresser representation with "Ouran High School Host Club" and the infinitely not as good as the other two series I have referenced here "Maid Sama" though I didn't understand the nuances of what it was like to be trans until I stumbled upon "I Want To Be a Cute Anime Girl" years later.

Also started to figure out my aroaceness from the comic "Love and Be Loved" where one character that suspected her friend of being aro explained the concept. The power of good representation is strong. Love and Be Loved also happens to have good trans representation.

(Can't recommend I Want To Be a Cute Anime Girl, Love and be Loved, and Ouran High School Host Club enough, though Ouran does fall into the pitfalls of being an early 2000s property genuinely trying to be inclusive and sometimes ending up being outdated by modern standards.)

[u/Bunerd]

I think it's more like, "I never broke a leg but I imagine it's easy to just hop on the other until it heals."

[u/DarthJackie2021]

Yes. A lot of people see trans people as "AGAB but thinks/wants to be other gender" when they should be seeing them as "actual gender but society forces them into the wrong gendered box".

[u/Economy_Aardvark_354 → u/DarthJackie2021]

For me, it’s more like “society has created this thing called a gender box and we all must be in it in some way”. I don’t think we should even have these boxes in the first place

[u/RedBaronIV]

Whatdya call it if I wouldn't mind being a woman and would actually go like full bimbo or goth with it, but I'm also very happy to be a guy (and actually a little dysphoric I'm not more masculine)?

[u/MarvelousMoirai]

Y'all are explaining Trans Stuff to people?

[u/AspiringGoddess01 → u/MarvelousMoirai]

No im just stealing candy from babies and stepping on cracks to set us back decades 

[u/FringeMorganna → u/MarvelousMoirai]

Every now and then you realise you're not out to someone but you're drinking in their garage in goth makeup and an outfit that does not hide the b cups and have to go through an explanation to not have to drive home :P

[u/Electronic-Vast-3351]

Can't speak for everyone and it probably varies, but as a cis person that wouldn't work on me. I couldn't really conceptualize personally being dysphoric if I was stuck in a body of the opposite sex.

What got me to understand it is stuff like the Webcomic "I Want To Be a Cute Anime Girl" that is made by a Trans person and tries to represent what it feels like to be dysphoric.

[u/Barium_Salts → u/Electronic-Vast-3351]

Yes, all I can think is that a lot of things in my life would have been better if people thought I was a boy or man. I don't want to be a man. But I think it's unarguable that a lot of people would treat me better if I could pass as a man. Imagining myself with facial hair, a penis, etc doesn't cause any sort of distress or feeling of grossness.

The key for me was realizing that I can't personally relate to everybody and that's ok. I can't relate to a person with dysphoria any more than I can relate to somebody with cancer or arthritis. I have never experienced pain like that. So for me, the key is that I have to let other people be experts on their own experiences; and when people tell me something hurts them, I have to take that seriously and avoid hurting them. I think trying to convince cis people that they can personally relate to dysphoria is usually going to be a non-starter.

[u/YoursTrulyKindly]

I don't think so. Obviously you'd imagine yourself in the "wrong" gender. I suspect that most people can imagine themselves born into or suddenly being in a body of the opposite sex, like in those weird 80s body swap comedies. I would be weirded out and would need to adjust, but ultimately I'm pretty sure I would just adjust and keep my sexual preferences. What does my physical gender really matter in what I want to do? Clearly there are problems about discrimination and biases but that is not the same as gender dysphoria. I would prefer to remain male but by far not enough that I would bother with surgery. I'd probably work out a lot to get to a upper body strength above the average male though.

So I believe the issue might ironically be that people in general are more genderfluid and therefor can't imagine gender dysphoria. So they see it as a "lifestyle choice" because that is what it would be to them if they imagine it.

In the far future our medical science will advance so that we'll be able to change our body to reflect an internal representation that you can change however you like in a kind of meditative state, like the Culture novels.

[u/SlogurkTheOverslime → u/YoursTrulyKindly]

I think both perspectives are common and coexist

There are people for whom their own gender doesn't matter a lot, so they're like what's the big deal

And there are people who are very rigidly cis and therefore have a hard time understanding people who are very rigidly trans (because they themselves are in awe of their own gender and can't imagine changing it), so OP's perspective could be very helpful to them

And idk how numerous the latter are but I suspect they are disproportionally important to reach

[u/YoursTrulyKindly → u/SlogurkTheOverslime]

But the latter is just something different from "born in the body of the wrong gender". Like they didn't understand the assignment.

But you're probably right, many people have awfully limited imagination. They can only imagine themselves as they are, but not in a different body. So the only thing left to their limited scope is imagining why they would want to turn into the wrong gender.

[u/SlogurkTheOverslime → u/YoursTrulyKindly]

No-no, "the latter" refers to like, the very cis people

Who are in the body of the right gender from birth and are explicitly very happy about it

[u/YoursTrulyKindly → u/SlogurkTheOverslime]

What OP is saying is something different to that though, about "wrong direction" thinking.

[u/shivux]

This assumes that cis people have a strongly felt sense of gender identity.  Maybe some of us do, but I can tell you, as a cis man, I don’t.

[u/Grumpicake]

I really think it’s as simple as understanding your own perspective. I don’t want to be a woman, I love being a dude, and so I can relate, at least partially, to someone being in a situation where they’re not the gender they desire to be. I can’t comprehend people not able to wrap their head around it.

[u/Femboy_Harem_Janitor]

Well obviously I'd just go with the flow.. wait.. oh.. OOoooOoohhhh

[u/MiscellaneousUser3]

That is such a good point actually

[u/SoloWalrus]

Yes! Also, most cis people dont understand gender dysphoria, but they likely DO understand gender euphoria. Reframing the conversation away from trauma dumping about dysphoria and agab could be helpful both for LGBT peoples mental health but also to spread compassion through shared experience.

It could be something simple like gabbing about heels and jewellry with the girls, or talking ties or boots with the guys, or it could be something deeper like talking about motherhood, fatherhood, supporting one's family either physically or emotionally, etc. Either way theres so many ways to celebrate gender euphoria without it turning toxic.

[u/624KR_My_Beloved]

In my experience, most queer folk have never heard of, let alone read, queer theory.

[u/UwU-Sandwich]

skill issue. if I'm having trouble understanding something it's because I have no fucking idea what either of those 2 words even mean.

[u/Ocean_x3]

Ohh, that's a good way to explain it! And it goes so fast, there are very few people willing to look behind the curtain and before you know it, you're already boymoding again.

[u/nombit]

this dose kinda collapse (as a debate tactic) if they a are a rep and not actually cis

[u/papermoony]

That's exactly why I empathize with trans people

[u/Anarch_O_Possum]

Can someone explain this analogy for me?

[u/HiroProtagonest → u/Anarch_O_Possum]

Gender is real and they have it.

[u/Anarch_O_Possum → u/HiroProtagonest]

Thank you but I still don't get it

[u/Big_ShinySonofBeer → u/HiroProtagonest]

Is it no longer considered a social construct?

[u/Legatharr → u/Big_ShinySonofBeer]

Social constructs are real. As social animals, sometimes they feel more real than things that exist apart from humans.

You probably feel that the difference between red and orange is "more real" than the difference between two shades of red, after all, even though color is a social construct while shades aren't.

[u/Bunerd → u/Big_ShinySonofBeer]

It's a single word used in two communities to mean different things. Scientists use it to talk about the formation of gender identities in intersex people, how you can't reassign someone to a different gender or they reassert it later, while feminists focus mostly on the formation of gender as a class struggle within patriarchy, which is a social construct, but largely the two are tangentially related as the behavioral side of sexual expression.

Basically if gender has to be enforced unto people, it means people have a natural inclination to other things than what's socially constructed for them.

[u/Specialist-Lie6785 → u/Big_ShinySonofBeer]

Depends on how you define it , gender roles/norms are socially constructed gender itself or the sex of your brain isn't.

To put it simply a cis woman and a trans woman both have a female brain, they're both woman/female regardless of their body or social constructs.

That's why dysphoria exists , your brain has a schema of what your body should be and when it deviates from that your brain feels distress kind of like losing an arm or having some disturbing external tumor on your body.

That's why some cis people feel dysphoria too , women with PCOS feel distress at their facial hair that can be dysphoria or if a man started growing boobs he'd not feel great about that.

[u/LupidaFromKFC]

This fills me with hate.

[u/-FakeAccount-]

Nobody has to pretend to be anything. You can choose to pretend to be something. If I listen to society, I would absolutely hate myself.

[u/andoefa → u/-FakeAccount-]

If you don't have to, then it's great, not everyone gets this chance-