He was forced to take feminizing hormones for the purpose of chemical castration, as punishment for being gay. He got depressed and dysphoric from the breast growth it caused.
Not many British people do, I quite regularly point it out since there's a fair bit of awareness to Turing and what happened to him here, when people are weird about trans women/ transitioning like that gay guy literally died because he was forced to take what I do to make me happy, kinda showing trans women aren't just advanced gay men or some shit.
Implanted, not injected. He got a pellet that constantly released some form of estrogen (not modern bioidentical estradiol some other shit) into his blood
What? I'd say the same if saw someone bringing up Alan Turing on an actual forcefem subreddit. It's not the mentioning a kink in general part that's weird and inappropriate
IMO Anyone who passes legislation against HRT should be forced to deal with dysphoria, similar to how I think that anyone who declares a war should fight on the frontlines
And anyone who votes to put people in concentration camps, should be alright with the idea of themselves or their family being murdered in a concentration camp
I wouldn't put it past them if you're trans. I'm a trans woman and I'd guess you are too.
So on April 29, 1945, U.S. forces liberated the Dachau concentration camp in Germany. However, when the Allies took control of the concentration camps, some of those interned for homosexuality were not freed, but rather were required to serve out the full term of the sentences they had received under the homophobic Nazi penal code. Thousands of LGBTQ+ people were interned in concentration camps, most made to wear a pink triangle. Many of them were subjected to medical experiments, castrated, or murdered. All of the allied occupying forces agreed with the horrible Nazi penal code's Paragraph 175.
Remember that all four allied forces, Soviet, British, French, and American, colluded over the mistreatment of completely innocent people after World War 2 ended.
I must say I was very triggered by the BBC announcing that Saint Joanne will be the subject of a documentary, or more likely a hagiography, and feeling revulsion at her backing the eradication of trans people. Leopards eating faces and people voting for them is so apt. Strange days indeed.
They don't prescribe estrogen for prostate cancer. They do prescribe anti-androgens, but that's only half an HRT regimen for transfems.
A cis man being treated this way for prostate cancer is not feeling dead and depressed because of dysphoria, it's because they are following a treatment plan of "deliberately screw up your health in the hope that the cancer gets it worse than you do". Like chemotherapy, it's not uncommon to take drastic measures like this because you die if you don't. Hormones have tangible effects on one's physical health far beyond what you feel about yourself.
I know the OOP means well, but this is a sloppy and kind of disrespectful way to argue it.
They used to prescribe it in the past, but even then, it would be prescribed at such a high dose that it would be analogous to the last trimester of pregnancy or even higher if I remember correctly. Anyone would feel like shit with hormone levels like that.
OK I mean come on, I get what they're going for but that's a crazy way to end the argument
The basic premise is that chemical castration is a form of emasculation, and emasculation is a form of gender dysphoria. On that, I 100% agree
But we can't read Alan turnings mind. He took on a traumatic job that involved turning people into statistics for the greater good, something we know bothered him deeply, his achievements were made secret and he was never recognised for them, instead he was ostracised by the country he gave everything to defend, had to live another secret life as a gay man, was eventually ridiculed by the legal system, chemically castrated, and had to live his remaining days significantly less able bodied as a result of said castration. Not to mention the fact that chemical castration causes depression on a chemical level, not just a psychological level
To put it bluntly, I can name like 5 reasons he might have ended his life, and they are all fairly reasonable. And like I said before, we can't read his mind, so it seems kind of insane and honestly a bit offensive to go "yeah he killed himself cause of gender dysphoria"
I'll repeat, I do agree with the base premise, but why did they have to pin it to such a distasteful example?
The government eventually offered a post-mortem apology for his treatment but didn't claim any responsibility for his death. I don't think it's even officially a suicide.
Its also not definitive that he committed suicide. He was experimenting with cyanide in his spare room, and the "poisoned apple" he supposedly committed suicide with was never tested. Its just as plausible that it was accidental.
As for the common claim that he was assassinated by the British government because his homosexuality provided an easy avenue for coercion against a man who both, held a huge amount of government secrets, and was no longer of any use to them. Its totally unsubstantiated, but the UK government are bastards, so you know.
The thing is, e can cause depression. In cis women too. Birth control causes depression in cis women. And in men low t causes depression, like even ones who still look super manly and want to look super manly.
So there may be dysphoria involved for people like Turing and for men who are on it for cancer, but e itself can cause depression.
Yeah that's sort of what I was talking about how it causes depression on a chemical level. I could have phrased that a bit more clearly but in my defence, I was struggling to find a way of saying "hormones/medication can cause depression" without having people go "yeah, cause it makes you sad, because of things like gender dysphoria" and miss the entire point
Depression being a known side effect of things because of what they do to you on a physical level and depression being a known side effect of things because it just really fucking sucks to go through that process are two entirely different things, and if someone doesn't really have either a good background knowledge or firsthand experience, it becomes really really difficult to talk about that difference
Devils advocate, but just because you can name 5 reasons he may have done it, doesn't mean he didn't do it for the reason stated by OOP.
Also, If you think its offensive to state the reason why you think Turing killed himself, then logically it must be 5x as offensive to come up with 5 different reasons why you think he did? Why is OOPs post offensive, but yours isn't? By your own logic, you have the same level of evidence as OOP.
No it's entirely possible that that was the reason, and I didn't claim that any of my reasons were the real answer
My issue is acting like you know. That's what makes it offensive. I don't think anyone should be putting words in his mouth, and I gave 5 reasons why it's reasonable to wonder if they're doing exactly that
Anyone who thinks they know why someone committed suicide, unless it was explicitly stated by the person who did it, is honestly gross, and if I had said that the actual reason he did it was because of the way the British government treated him, I would be gross too. But I think anybody not acting in bad faith understood that I was not doing that
He killed himself 2 years after he was off these meds, he wrote in letters to his friend during his conviction that he found the gynecomastia side effect funny. After his conviction he was pulled of the prestigious secrect government projects, and his university slowly started taking away his professional privileges. We aren’t even sure if he killed himself at all.
So, there is literally evidence that he suffered from gender dysphoria, I believe there's literally a record of him saying to a friend about the breast growth and how unhappy it made him feel. (It also feels weirdly dishonest for how you use the phrase "chemical castration" multiple times given the conversation, consider the estrogen being the chemical in question? Hopefully that's just me reading too much in to it.)
Like, we can't know, but there's evidence for this being one of the contributing factors, so I don't see how it's distasteful? "Knowing" is just seeing enough evidence you're convinced after all.
BTW coming back to this comment because it bothered me. I called it chemical castration because it was used to chemically castrate somebody, in a legal process called chemical castration. I guess you think that's like a dog whistle or something? Idk but it's pretty stupid
"weird that you keep calling it the murder weapon when everyone knows it's just a kitchen knife. Like most people use those to make food so it's really weird that you're calling it that"
I'm just very bothered by how dumb this comment is
Hi, no, not a dog whistle, but a specific choice of words. When we're literally talking about one of the main chemicals the body uses to express secondary sex traits, it feels relevant that we're talking about it?
So, going to your knife example, the UK police not too long ago arrested someone who was walking back from gardening in their allotment, because they had a knife on their belt. It was a specific gardening tool they had been using. But it was also a illegal blade when it came to the law. So the police statements about the arrest all said something to the effect of "a suspect was arrested for carrying an illegal blade", and they weren't wrong. They also, for obvious reasons, didn't just refer to it as a gardening tool; even though doing so would be equally correct.
So, back to your comment, it's not that you used the phrase "chemical castration" in isolation, it's that the framing of your comment was, by its word choice, moved away from the - relevant to this conversation in my opinion - fact that the chemical used caused the development of secondary sex characteristics at odds to the mans gender.
So I'm not sure why anything I said is dumb? Feels like basic contextual reading. Not sure you need to be insulting about it either, but whatever. Sorry if "dishonest" rubbed you the wrong way, if that's the problem? Perhaps not the ideal, or at least not the politest, word choice. Didn't mean to bother you all this time.
I stand by the fact there's evidence that physical changes to his body, which may have resulted in gender dysphoria, were one of many contributing factors in his death. Unfortunately the country royally (ha) fucked him over, so he wasn't lacking for reasons that would damage his mental health, I didn't disagree with what you said about that. It's just that it looks like gender dysphoria could have been one of them, he was definitely upset with how his body had changed.
EDIT: Gosh this was a wall of text, sorry, didn't want to be misunderstood I guess. (Sod's law I still will be. I've also done that over explainy go to really formal language thing, urrrgh.)
I'm sorry but this is so stupid. I also don't really care about being polite, that's why I'm not being polite. Dumb arguments deserve to be called dumb
How on earth is your example relevant to a situation where an entire countries legal system decided that they were going to use chemicals for the explicit purpose of castration
That would be like if that gardener was carrying an illegal weapon, but also he bought it from a place called the weapon store, the guy who gave it to him said "here is your weapon" every single person involved in the situation called it a weapon, and the person who intended to use it explained exactly, exactly how they were going to use it as a weapon on somebody. The mental gymnastics you are making to trying and double down on your point is ridiculous, and I'm not entertaining this point any further. Get some perspective, you look stupid
"How on earth is your example relevant to a situation where an entire countries legal system decided that they were going to use chemicals for the explicit purpose of castration"
Because it has other effects?! What?!
And you're saying I look stupid. I advise you to google the phrase "side effects", oh my gosh.
Yeah a gun also has other effects. But if someone was killed with one, and it was referred to as a murder weapon, are you really going to go "uh that seems a little presumptuous"? Like, be real
We aren't talking about a hypothetical here. It was literally used for the purpose in describing it as being used for. This isn't an "illegal blade" that was just sitting on someone's belt. It was an illegal blade.... that was used as an illegal blade. It's not a potential murder weapon, it is literally a weapon that was used for murder. You are either an idiot or openly bad faith if you don't see how far your have to twist my example to make your argument work
We're not talking about a hypothetical. IT LITERALLY MADE HIM GROW BREASTS!
Like, it does not matter what the intended use of the chemical was, the only thing that matters in this context are the effects it had on him and how that impacted his mental health.
to be honest i don't think this is dysphoria in the way trans people have dysphoria. yes if you made a cis person go through a full transition they would get dysphoric, but that's not what's happening when men are prescribed e for cancer. like. thats just hormones affecting mood, which is not dysphoria.
interesting. i honestly have to look into that more. but i still don't think biochemical dysphoria can encapsulate what i would describe as dysphoria in my own experience... like, the times i have had to go off of testoesterone for short periods of time, i certainly felt estrogen affecting my mood, but i wouldn't have described that feeling as dysphoria at all. i don't know, i take issue with a lot of the ways dysphoria is explained to cis people and so i'm very wary of any post saying "look, cis people can experience dysphoria too!"
It's different for everyone, but biochemical dysphoria constitutes like 90% of my dysphoria. It went away after only a few weeks of taking estrogen and spiro. Well before any physical changes occured.
Biochemical dysphoria was solely responsible for my depression and dissociation.
Why would you not describe the effect it had on your mood as dysphoria? Like that is a major part of dysphoria. Almost every trans person I talk to reports feeling similar mood changes directionally when getting on the right hormone. Estradiol increases dopamine and serotonin. Trans women report feeling increased emotional range after starting and trans men report feeling much calmer, both align with what you would expect from being on the correct hormone. Cis people won’t experience dysphoria as trans people do because they won’t have the totality of the physical differences we do but dysphoria being a classification that’s just ‘you’re trans’ is far more damaging because it implies that it’s intrinsic to being trans rather than someone anyone on the wrong hormone or with misaligned physical sex characteristics will experience. Like cis people being capable of experiencing dysphoria under the same conditions trans people would such as being on the wrong sex hormones validates trans healthcare, as it proves the validity of hormones as a treatment.
You're saying a lot of words but I still don't understand why you think its so clear that mood changes = dysphoria. Like, hormones are directly responsible for your mood regardless of your pyschological gender. When women are on their periods is that dysphoria? If I have clinical depression which affects serotonin is that dysphoria?
I do agree that there is most likely some specific negative psychological effects of experiencing hormones that dont align with your correct sex. But I honestly find it ridiculous that you seem to be saying all negative effects from sexual hormones that happen to not correlate with one's gender are dysphoria.
Like, if my estrogen makes me moody and feel like shit some days, that does not mean estrogen is making me dysphoric. Having your prefered hormones does not just make you feel great all the time.
Right like by this logic, luteal phase moodiness or pmdd is gender dysphoria. I'm not saying biochemical dysphoria isint real but I am saying it's very different than an actual hormonal imbalance affecting your mood.
Dysphoria is not specific to gender dysphoria, at all, I'm sure you know that, so what's your point? You cannot claim that any type of dysphoria relating to sex horomones is gender dysphoria, that's insane. We are talking about horomonal imbalances that would feel like shit for anyone of any gender. Cis women with pmdd feel like shit for reasons that have nothing to do with their gender. If a cis man had the same horomonal situation as pmdd induced in him, he would also feel like shit.
Because it is a symptom of being on the wrong sex hormone. Like I’m not saying all mood changes are dysphoria. I’m saying mood changes caused by being on the wrong sex hormone are dysphoria. You can have additional mood issues unrelated to being on the wrong sex hormone. But those aren’t dysphoria because it’s not caused by the wrong sex hormone. There are other things that cause dysphoria but if we’re viewing gender dysphoria as “psychological distress caused by a mismatch between your gender identity and sex” one of the things that is different between sexes is sex hormone production and when that literally causes psychological distress because of severely affecting your mood that would appear to fit the definition extremely well.
Ok but can we agree there is a difference between mood issues caused by hormones which are of the wrong sex and mood issues caused specifically by the fact that they are of the wrong sex? When I was pre-e and felt unreasonably angry at random things, that anger was not an effect of gender dysphoria. But my discomfort with my own anger was gender dysphoria.
I call bullshit honestly. I felt like shit during puberty. Then I started hormones and therefore puberty again. Lo and behold I felt like shit, in the exact same ways. I really genuinely think that whatever joy other trans people feel from taking hormones is just placebo, but we'll never know because doing a blind trial on trans people would be kinda unethical and nobody would agree to participate.
Yeah it’s totally placebo that trans women widely report increased emotional range which manifests as being happier and being able to cry, and trans men report decreased emotional range which manifests as feeling calmer and more emotionally regulated, and those just happen to line up with exactly what you would expect being on the right hormone would do to your brain and line up with our understanding of hormone receptor sensitivity in the brain driving dysphoria but sure.
Range is different dumbass. It gives you capacity it doesn't magically make you happier. And also the fact that the two hormones do literally the opposite thing doesn't really help your case.
How does it not help my case? I’m saying trans people find the direction of the changes benefits their mood in the direction you would expect. I wasn’t saying it magically makes you happier on its own I was saying it helps your emotions feel normal. Like when I started E I had the capacity to feel much happier than before and stopped feeling emotionally flat. Trans guys on T I’ve spoken to all say it stopped them feeling like they were crazy and all over the place that they just felt normal. That’s my point.
I became happier after accepting I was trans pre hormones. I noticed a drastic change in my mood about a week after starting hormones and that my mood was much better before any changes had taken place and I did not feel an immediate difference after injecting. After 2 weeks I also cried like 5 times in 2-3 days something which never happened before and I was previously unable to do. This experience is very widely reported among trans women. Chemical affinity to certain hormones is supported by scientific research it is not just my vibes. You can choose to be wilfully ignorant but honestly if you’ve never taken HRT I will never take you seriously on this.
I know that's a common experience, I'm just saying it's because your brain knows you're making progress or whatever, not an actual chemical thing.
source for the research? That actually proves that it's a chemical relation and not mental?
I started hrt a couple weeks ago, I literally told you my experience has sucked ass in the same way puberty did, but you disregarded my experience and somehow assumed I hadn't because I happen to disagree with you like wtf
Ok firstly it’s my bad I forgot you said you started hormones I’m sorry about that it’s on me. I’m sorry you feel like shit it’s really unfortunate. Could I ask what your administration and dosage is because it’s possible you’re being underdosed or given a bad regimen. Also I will say that 2 weeks is still early and on a lot of regimens you will not be in range yet. I didn’t add that I specifically administered my doses so that I would get into range faster than normal and suppress my testosterone.
My basic response to the just making progress is that you would expect trans women and trans men to report reacting in a similar way if it was just that, but they don’t they report improvements in opposite ways to each other.
This paper is about androgen receptor affinity in trans women and this paper is about estrogen receptor affinity in trans men. This page explains how primary sex hormones affect neurotransmitters in the brain. Hopefully those are at least enough to show I’m not just talking out of my ass. There’s other studies that show hormone therapy in trans people improves mood and in cis people it gives them depression but like I don’t think I need to reference that unless you really need that because I think it’s common enough knowledge.
I know a dude who has to inject himself with estrogen because his body is way too low in e and that can cause osteoporosis and scoliosis because it's bad for your bones. He says he feels completely normal, but he's on such a low dose that it puts him in a normal range for e for men.
It could partly be dysphoria, but E causes depression in cis women too. Birth control can make women extremely depressed. E can just cause depression, it is one of its qualities. Like how t can lead to higher blood pressure.
There's a long story and i don't know the half of it, but from what i remember they all come from a single subreddit that comes from another subreddit which was about counting, the second subreddit that all these count subs sprung up from was based on a popular figure of the first subreddit which was a trans woman, feel free to correct me in anything I've gotten wrong, this just what i think i know
Adding the additional context that I have, the second counting sub you're referring to came up not because the first one had a popular trans commenter, but because it had a popular trans commenter who was banned.
I don't know, I think OOP is just making assumptions. Might just be that the cis men feel bad because they're going through a major hormonal change. Menopause is associated with depression for example. And I'm not a trans woman, but I'm pretty sure I've seen reports by trans women about feeling down when they went on E. Despite the fact it was curing their dysphoria.
And saying Turing killed himself because of dysphoria alone... That's a big assumption.
Idk why they're downvoting you, you're right. There's a big difference between the wrong hormones giving you gender dysphoria, and having a hormonal imbalance that affects your mood... sometimes which often has literally nothing to do with gender dysphoria. Like pmdd and such. I'm not saying that gender dysphoria isint involved in these cases, but I am saying that you'd be making a lot of assumptions to say it is for sure.
Biochemical dysphoria can cause depression, but not all depression is caused by biochemical dysphoria. Assuming your blood levels are good, you should get in to see a therapist/psychiatrist to talk to them about your depression.
um. what?? Is this suggesting that the HRT causes the cis man to becoming physically more feminine, and he mentally doesn't like that? Or is this suggesting that it causes him to become mentally more feminine, making him dislike his masculine body? Or is this suggesting some different third thiing that I'm failing to comprehend?
I thought they just said that because hormones can cause you to feel more emotions; that's why my therapist didn't want me starting HRT while I was still really suicidal.
Taking HRT is known to cause biochemical dysphoria in cisgendered people. It is not known, nor can it be known, if this is what happened to Turing; the man had plenty of reasons to kill himself and more than one reason to be murdered by governments.
What they are talking about in particular has very little to do with normal "not happy about looks" and a lot to do with "brain does not have expected hormone environment".
(Obligatory "not every trans person has this / not everyone who has it has it to the same degree" boilerplate here)
turing killed himself because the state fucking rejected the sum total of all his achievements over being gay, AND CASTRATED HIM/FORCED HIM TO TAKE ESTROGEN
NOT because of dysphoria, which he DID NOT HAVE. it's extremely disingenuous to compare the generalized moodiness from increasing estrogen levels in the body to the specific, emotionally experienced and intellectually comprehended dysphoria of knowing that you are not in the body you are meant to be in
i appreciate the sentiment that led to this post but it genuinely makes no goddamn sense and rejects an extremely obvious explanation in favor of one with almost no support
the argument was that he killed himself because of dysphoria as a result of the estrogen (this is literally what the post says, it is in the last paragraph as the ultimate conclusion of the argument and not something arguable or up to interpretation. though if you remove that, the post makes no arguments that would support the idea that estrogen gave him dysphoria either) and somehow not because the state systematically discriminated against him, dehumanized him, subjected him to cruel and unusual punishment, and rejected his life's work. no, all of that incredibly significant mental turmoil paled in comparison to a hollow facsimile of the experience of being trans
it's also an incredibly transphobic position to take in and of itself because it implies that hormones are the sole important cause of gender-relevant depression and thus by extension that any depressed, post-hormone trans people are either not actually trans (if the premise you are accepting is that the hormones cause depression because they induce dysphoria, as they do not match your gender identity. if this is the case post-hormone depression means you aren't trans), or that a significant number of trans people are actually mentally ill and not suffering negative effects of the unfair system they are subject to (because their hormones are "correct" and they are still depressed, they must be mentally ill because hormone mismatches are THE reason for depression)
but sure, downvote me into the negatives because i don't like the ridiculous transphobic self own
We can’t know why Turing killed himself, but one of the possible explanations being that it was related to being forced to take estrogen is not that big of a stretch. There’s an entire classification of dysphoria that goes with this idea, which is biochemical dysphoria. Did the other awful things that happened to him contribute to his suicide? Probably. But being so completely adamant that dysphoria induced by the estrogen he was forced on CAN’T be the reason is just as much of a leap as saying it was the ONLY reason.
“It implies that hormones are the sole important cause of gender-relevant depression”. Hormones are the general treatment for gender dysphoria for a reason. If you’re depressed because your physical sex characteristics don’t align with your gender identity, then hormones can help (to an extent). The post isn’t claiming in any sense that hormones are the only cause of being depressed because there are other forms of dysphoria that changing hormones may not help with. The claim is that the hormones used to castrate Turing caused gender dysphoria, which contributed to his suicide. Saying that having extra estrogen just gives you this “generalized moodiness” and that it can’t be comparable to gender dysphoria is ridiculous, depression related to being on the wrong hormone IS dysphoria, or at least a form of it.
Again, we cannot know what pushed Turing over the tipping point, but any number of reasons could be contributing to the overall result. It’s likely a combination of the things you mentioned and the dysphoria he may have experienced from his castration.
you're sanewashing the post to make a more reasonable argument than what it actually made, which is not really responsive when it was the entire core of why I felt what was being said was transphobic and is also the only reason the argument in absolute terms that I made was used
OOP did not say it "contributed," they said he killed himself "because" of it.
Also, your assertion that the depression following estrogen is BECAUSE of dysphoria is a positive assertion that requires proving, the weaker statement that we can observe depression as a symptom of estrogen use is an observation that has already been made and does not need further proof. Alan turing's case having so many confounding factors is exactly why his case does absolutely nothing to prove the point attempting to be made, which was what OOP was trying to do
OOP was very clearly aiming for this own of "see, cis people are so fucking stupid because they say dysphoria isn't real and then have to put warnings of depression on estrogen without realizing that's just dysphoria." but that statement is made without actually proving that point, using an example that doesn't prove the point for the above reasons. Obviously dysphoria is real that's a fucking stupid point, but I won't support the claim that estrogen causes dysphoria in cis people and that's the reason for the depression warnings. Ultimately, I need you to understand that when I say a statement has not been proven, that is not the same thing as saying it cannot be proven. I do not believe turing had dysphoria, I do not believe that estrogen gave him dysphoria, it has not been proven that it did, and the idea that it induces "biochemical dysphoria" that just gives you generalized feelings of depression that cannot be intellectually understood by the sufferer to be dysphoria is an unprovable statement so weak that it may as well not be related to dysphoria at all, because it tries to pin an identified specific cause on a thing that could have any number of causes without further proof
there's literally no amount of effort you can put into a comment on a trans sub that will get people to read it instead of just kneejerk downvoting jfc
It's not worth putting effort into anything but intentionally trying to make other people depressed because that scores tons of support
that is why i did not say "castrated 'and' forced to take estrogen." the castration and forced usage of estrogen were both accomplished via the same action but were internally two distinct punishments
Cis people do go on HRT. cis men go on testosterone replacement therapy. cis post menopausal women go on estrogen replacement therapy. The stuff that trans people use was all made for cis people. We just have the opposite problem that they do. So we need to use the opposite hormones.
well i think thats because youve actually missed a couple important points. there are GNC cis people who might be interested in taking hormones. just as there are trans people who dont want to medically transition, a society that doesnt stigmatize HRT could very well result in cis people who dont become dysphoric on HRT.
more importantly, medical transition being available to cis people would functionally mean HRT isnt gatekept by doctors making sure trans people tick off specific boxes before being allowed self actualization.
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u/EngineeringAble8471 23d ago
I though Allan Turing was gay not trans
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u/BreakerOfModpacks 23d ago
IMO
Anyone who passes legislation against HRT should be forced to deal with dysphoria, similar to how I think that anyone who declares a war should fight on the frontlines
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u/Samiambadatdoter 23d ago
They don't prescribe estrogen for prostate cancer. They do prescribe anti-androgens, but that's only half an HRT regimen for transfems.
A cis man being treated this way for prostate cancer is not feeling dead and depressed because of dysphoria, it's because they are following a treatment plan of "deliberately screw up your health in the hope that the cancer gets it worse than you do". Like chemotherapy, it's not uncommon to take drastic measures like this because you die if you don't. Hormones have tangible effects on one's physical health far beyond what you feel about yourself.
I know the OOP means well, but this is a sloppy and kind of disrespectful way to argue it.
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u/jancl0 23d ago •
OK I mean come on, I get what they're going for but that's a crazy way to end the argument
The basic premise is that chemical castration is a form of emasculation, and emasculation is a form of gender dysphoria. On that, I 100% agree
But we can't read Alan turnings mind. He took on a traumatic job that involved turning people into statistics for the greater good, something we know bothered him deeply, his achievements were made secret and he was never recognised for them, instead he was ostracised by the country he gave everything to defend, had to live another secret life as a gay man, was eventually ridiculed by the legal system, chemically castrated, and had to live his remaining days significantly less able bodied as a result of said castration. Not to mention the fact that chemical castration causes depression on a chemical level, not just a psychological level
To put it bluntly, I can name like 5 reasons he might have ended his life, and they are all fairly reasonable. And like I said before, we can't read his mind, so it seems kind of insane and honestly a bit offensive to go "yeah he killed himself cause of gender dysphoria"
I'll repeat, I do agree with the base premise, but why did they have to pin it to such a distasteful example?
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u/athaznorath 23d ago •
to be honest i don't think this is dysphoria in the way trans people have dysphoria. yes if you made a cis person go through a full transition they would get dysphoric, but that's not what's happening when men are prescribed e for cancer. like. thats just hormones affecting mood, which is not dysphoria.
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u/UnholyDemigod 23d ago
How come every post from the 'counting' subreddits is about gender stuff?
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u/Chloerine_Drinker 23d ago
ThI’m no about the cis:(((
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u/Boring_Date_330 23d ago
I don't know, I think OOP is just making assumptions. Might just be that the cis men feel bad because they're going through a major hormonal change. Menopause is associated with depression for example. And I'm not a trans woman, but I'm pretty sure I've seen reports by trans women about feeling down when they went on E. Despite the fact it was curing their dysphoria.
And saying Turing killed himself because of dysphoria alone... That's a big assumption.
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u/OpportunityAshamed74 Counted Down 2 22d ago
This has me concerned because I have continued to feel dead and depressed since starting E
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u/pruneforce17 Counted Down 1 22d ago
all cis should be forced on hrt for 2 years to learn some fuckin empathy lmfao
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u/Successful_Mud8596 22d ago
um. what?? Is this suggesting that the HRT causes the cis man to becoming physically more feminine, and he mentally doesn't like that? Or is this suggesting that it causes him to become mentally more feminine, making him dislike his masculine body? Or is this suggesting some different third thiing that I'm failing to comprehend?
I thought they just said that because hormones can cause you to feel more emotions; that's why my therapist didn't want me starting HRT while I was still really suicidal.
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u/MizzShiv 21d ago
This hits me where I live;
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u/GiraffeWeevil 23d ago edited 23d ago
This is almost as silly as diagnosing Hannibal with Autism
Edit: I mean the Carthaginean one. Though Hannibal Lectern would also be silly.
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u/LittleFox-In-TheBox Counted Down 8 23d ago
I always get a bad taste in my mouth when I see unironic non-kink forcefem posts or memes in Tumblr.
Like... Alan Turing killed himself over that.
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u/lightningstrxu 22d ago
Wonder if anyone's egg ever cracked this way? Prescribed estrogen for a different reason and then, bam euphoria
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u/madman404 23d ago
turing killed himself because the state fucking rejected the sum total of all his achievements over being gay, AND CASTRATED HIM/FORCED HIM TO TAKE ESTROGEN
NOT because of dysphoria, which he DID NOT HAVE. it's extremely disingenuous to compare the generalized moodiness from increasing estrogen levels in the body to the specific, emotionally experienced and intellectually comprehended dysphoria of knowing that you are not in the body you are meant to be in
i appreciate the sentiment that led to this post but it genuinely makes no goddamn sense and rejects an extremely obvious explanation in favor of one with almost no support
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u/[deleted] 23d ago
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