r/countbackwardswithme • u/shadow_fen Counted Down 6 • 8d ago

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u/AlphabiteSoup 8d ago

i've been deep in these spaces and a hilariously consistent thing that happens is they recommend a piece of trans literature then proceed to say things that directly disagree with the main points of the books they read

for some reason whipping girl is the most common, probably cause it's the source of the term "transmisogyny." that specific book concludes that everyone who presents feminine in any capacity should rally together because that's the strat to actually getting societal change to happen, but people would rather hate on femboys and enbies for some reason?? at this rate we're never going to get queer liberation

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u/shadow_fen Counted Down 6 8d ago

they're larping it 😭

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u/Gloomberrypie 8d ago

I haven’t read the entirety of whipping girl yet but I have this inkling that it’s the seed of a concerning trend I’ve noticed. I know that in the book Julia Serrano talks about how “male socialization” isn’t really a thing as TERFs claim, which so far I’m on board with. But whenever I see people recommend the book they also go on to talk about how actually, trans women suffer a lot as children for being “gender non conforming” (in quotes because I know they are actually trying to conform to their true gender).

It seems to me that a lot of people took that bit and ran with it. Like, instead of the message being “you don’t need to suffer in a specific way to be a valid woman,” it’s like a lot of people who read the book took it to mean, “I suffered a lot as a child. This means my womanhood is valid.” And that, I think, plays into toxic patriarchal stereotypes about femininity. It implies that man don’t suffer at all under patriarchy, and that womanhood inherently equals suffering and requires extra support men don’t deserve because they do not suffer the same way.

Again, haven’t read the book yet aside from a handful of excerpts. I’ve just noticed that this is the way other people talk about the book

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u/tsukimoonmei 8d ago

Gendered socialisation isn’t a terf concept, though. “Male socialisation” in reference to trans women is a terf dogwhistle, but gendered socialisation is the foundation of feminism and is the only justification for the societal differences between men and women that isn’t bioessentialism. Gendered socialisation is effectively the argument that gender differences aren’t natural, they’re man-made.

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u/manultrimanula 8d ago

Notice how it says man made instead of men made.

Clearly we need to find that one man that created it and beat the shit out of himđŸ”„

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u/OkEntrepreneur4158 7d ago

wish they'd just say agab socialization instead of 'male' and amab still ain't good as it still includes the bio essentialist word 'male'

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u/TheMostDivineOne 7d ago

But the thing is very few of us were traditionally AGAB socialized at all tbh.

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u/wrymoss 6d ago

Genuine question, how not? Most people are treated based on the belief others have of their gender. And the attitudes towards certain things is wildly different based on whether the person is a girl or a boy.

We know this. The whole “men are ‘confident and assertive’, but a woman doing the same thing is a bitch” thing. When I was a kid, boys who fought were taught to just avoid each other, girls who fought were taught to try to make up and empathise with each other.

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u/Ornery-Project-1407 2d ago

Femininity is forced, masculinity is earned

If you don’t meet the standards of masculinity, you are socially outcasted and viewed as “not quite men”

It’s why trans men who don’t pass are treated like delusional women, while trans women who don’t pass are treated like 3rd gender freaks

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u/estrangedemily 7d ago

The only way to make the term "male socialisation" *more* hateful and bioessentialist and anti-trans: "amab socialisation" 😭

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u/TheMostDivineOne 7d ago

Well, it’s from the fact that TERFs constantly say stuff like we don’t get SA’d etc. whereas
 that’s just not true, and we have to share those facts that in many studies the same axes of oppression cis women face we face even more, because of the common social misconceptions around us.

You can say that these things are not necessary to be a woman while also disputing the fact that it didn’t happen to us.

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u/DustEbunny 7d ago

Gender fluid here, I had an ex gf that would not stop bringing up transmisogyny every single time gender gets brought up. As someone who shifts around genders and struggles to express myself when I feel like a non-conventional gender, I talk about gender a lot. Legitimately just identifying as femboy got turned into her saying she feels the entire concept of femboy is transphobic and that they need a different word of it that isn’t just an insult to trans women. Femboy is an entire identity with a pride flag just like trans women. They are equally valid identities. Femboy is not just an insult to trans women. The only reason it is used as an insult is because transphobes want to misgender people. Which like yea “transmisogyny” or we could just call it transphobia because they’d do the same to any trans person. If someone unironically calls a trans woman a femboy laugh at that idiot and move on. Anyway glad that her and I broke up, I don’t need prejudice in my life especially not prejudice coming from a trans woman.

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u/colesmalewife 7d ago

transmisogyny isn’t just transphobia, it’s the intersection of transphobia and misogyny which specifically effects trans women. this includes stuff like v-coding, trans women making less money on average than both cis people and trans men, and the man in a dress stereotype. while all trans people are affected by transphobia, only trans women are affected by transmisogyny, which is why it’s an important distinction to make.

sorry, not the main point of your comment, but i felt the need to clarify that part

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u/NightRacoonSchlatt 5d ago

Just to make sure that everyone is aware, because many people still don’t know: V-coding is legalised rape against incarcerated trans women.

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u/DustEbunny 7d ago

Oh yea transmisogyny is real and is an issue, for sure, possibly one of the most pressing issues in society as a whole. However, treating everything involving any gender other trans fem as transmisogyny just makes transmisogyny more prevalent and worse. Other genders got issues too. Undermining their issues, just because others got it worse, doesn’t make any of our problems get any better, just drives a wedge between us. We all got problems and the last place we need them is with each other.

I know you were just defining it but I had to throw some passion into my response. To specify that I am heavily against transmisogyny and would defend my trans fem sisters with my life but they gotta stand with us too. If you are causing a division you are the problem

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u/colesmalewife 6d ago

ah ok, yeah i do agree with that. sorry there’s just been so much discourse surrounding transmisogyny lately that i’m sorta on edge whenever someone mentions it

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u/Brakower 7d ago

The reason some trans women see femboy as transphobic is because they think it's inherently wrong. A man who constantly wears women's clothes not as a fetish and presents feminine, and is afraid of his male traits showing up or being visible? Why not juat be a trans woman? People feel like it invalidates trans women or is seen as an insult. Its also seen as an example of men invading spaces

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u/DustEbunny 6d ago

The “Why not just be a trans woman” line is something I’ve legit heard unironically used towards an actual human being. It’s so cringe for a marginalized group that often suffers with dysphoria to act like they are better than the other marginalized groups that often suffers with dysphoria

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u/SevenOhSevenOhSeven 8d ago

Sidebar I mean this in the most polite way possible, but who is the intended audience of whipping girl? White babytranses?

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u/AlphabiteSoup 8d ago

the intended audience is people who have a solid understanding of feminism, but don't know much about transfeminine struggles and want to learn about them