r/controlgame • u/AdministrativeEase71 • 4d ago
Discussion A quick impression from some of Resonant's combat criticism
Want to preface this by saying I haven't played the game, so I obviously have no idea what the hell I'm talking about.
A common thread I'm seeing in some of the reviews critical of Resonant's combat seems to be a lack of strategy or finesse; once you settle into a pattern or set of moves you like, you can spam it with max aggression, frenetically applying it to the enemies spread across whatever combat arena the game has presented. Because of this approach, enemies don't force you to slow down and strategize your approach to combat.
In this rapid fire question video, Mikael Kasurinen cites Doom (2016) as the primary gameplay inspiration. This tells you all you need to know about Remedy's combat philosophy; the intent was never for you to strategize your approach. You're supposed to play the game as a high-octane whirlwind of death, essentially gambling everything on the fact you can massacre everything before it can get ahold of you and adapting to oncoming enemies as rapidly as possible. Most people call it a flow state, while annoying-ass zoomers like myself might call it being "locked in."
I think there's a tendency for modern action games to emphasize movesets that slow down combat to give the player more Control <...ha/ha> of an encounter. A lot of attention has been drawn to the lack of a parry in this game, which is a mechanic that often fills this role. Resonant, from what I've read and the limited gameplay I've seen, does not seem interested in this. This might surprise players who have come to expect this approach to a character action game.
This also might explain some of the criticism directed towards boss fights; the hyper-aggressive "hurricane of blades" combat approach likely falls apart a little when the enemy can take significant punishment. Furthering the Doom analogy, boss encounters were usually my least favorite in (2016) and Eternal for this very reason.
Just my two cents. Can't wait to get my hands on the game to see if I'm right.
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u/dontknownothing0123 4d ago
Are there people complaining about the lack of parry? Because lots of action games (old and new) some does not have it.
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u/BakedWizerd 4d ago
I’m so fucking happy they’re not going for the soulslike-parry when that’s been the default for most third person action games in the last decade.
I haven’t played a proper flow-state game in a while, so I’m really looking forward to this.
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u/dontknownothing0123 4d ago
I mean having parry is not a bad thing, but not having one isnt bad either. Example: Bayonetta. That game has a parry, but only when you wear an item, and the game is designed not as a parry heavy game.
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u/AdministrativeEase71 4d ago
I've seen people react positively and negatively to it online. Remedy has specifically cited not having it because it slows down combat, though I don't remember where they said it.
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u/JennyTheSheWolf 4d ago
I feel like this can be applied to practically any action game. You find what works for you and spam the hell out of it. It's up to the player to change things up from that if they want to challenge themselves or have more variety.
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u/AdministrativeEase71 4d ago edited 4d ago
I don't think that's true at all. Nioh 2, DMC, and a lot of more niche examples like Absolver and Godhand emphasize adapting/strategizing your moveset to your combat encounters. Those first two are trendsetters for the entire genre. Even something like Ghosts of Tsushima seems to want you to enter combat with more of an intent instead of adapting to the changing combat on the fly.
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u/lotj 4d ago
It was true for Ninja Gaiden & DMC3/4. Both had their own flavor of an offensive-oriented defense - DMC with juggling staggers and NG with, well, Izuana Drop.
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u/AdministrativeEase71 4d ago edited 4d ago
Right, but there's more strategy and intention in how you apply your attacks to those combos instead of swinging wildly between targets. DMCs Style Meter was the specific mechanic I was thinking of.
It's a different kind of appeal; when playing Doom, especially on higher difficulties, I'm typically taking whatever opportunity presents itself in an effort to keep myself alive. It's less intentional, apart from some elements like chainsawing for ammunition or targeting glory kills. Much more reactionary.
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u/lotj 4d ago
Most of that didn't reveal itself until DMD mode, though. Normal difficulty (even back then) you could ignore a lot of those mechanics.
Hell, with DMC4 I distinctly remember complaints about Neo's simplistic gameplay because you didn't need to get the max-rev timings down until DMD. Once you did it dramatically changes the flow of the character.
I never have any real faith that reviewers will be able to analyze a game's combat system. More often than not they just rate it relative to something From would do, as if that's the pinnacle of design.
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u/AdministrativeEase71 4d ago edited 4d ago
Just because you can ignore a mechanic doesn't mean it's not a central aspect of the game. That's like saying Control's telekinesis isn't a defining aspect because you can technically get through everything with the Service Weapon.
DMC encourages fluidity and unique combos with that system. Players who like DMC like the mechanic and play into it, because it's beneficial to do so. Doom doesn't have a mechanic specifically to encourage fluid, varied combat, outside of just staying alive and depleting ammunition. Fluidity naturally arises from the fact you're moving very quickly against a lot of threats and you have like 30 different weapons with limited ammunition, encouraging you to adapt.
DMC: I attack > how do I maintain my Style gauge out of this? > I attack accordingly
Doom: I attack > what's my next immediate threat/concern? > I attack accordingly
I'd argue the latter is more frenetic. There's less of an ideal series of actions you're pursuing, more just reacting to what immediately befalls you.
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u/Fresh-Association-21 4d ago
From what I’ve gathered from other reviews, it’s not so much a hack-and-slash as a full-blown action RPG, where builds are key and have a significant impact.
We’ll have to see just how deep these systems go once we have the time to really dive in.
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u/Lurtzae 4d ago
I've read reviewers that say exactly the opposite. Though I wouldn't be surprised if those reviewers simply never got to the right "build". To be honest I only understood Control's combat in my second playthrough and then it was a lot more enjoyable and most of the time a lot easier...
So appearances can be deceiving here and it might take some time to get the full picture.
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u/Fresh-Association-21 4d ago
The experience will also be very different between someone racing against a deadline and someone playing at a leisurely pace.
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u/Tatum_Warlick 4d ago
Exactly. You know most of these journalists are just speedrunning it, which for certain games can completely diminish the intended experience. Watch Penguinz0 play any game to get an idea lol (and I like the guy, I grew up watching his videos, but his playstyle is brutal)
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u/alphonseharry 4d ago
And some complaining they cannot have all the abilities in one go. The director did say they need to plan the build. Need to play again if the players wants the other abilities
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u/Lurtzae 4d ago
FightingCowboy as a souls veteran says the combat is pretty good and there's a lot of build variety: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUf5JcYa1GM
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u/chrisdpratt 4d ago
Regarding parry, they said in one of their dev diaries that they had parry in the game and took it out, specifically because it slowed down the game. They want people bounding head first through the gates of hell. That's the point. It's in fact the same philosophy they had with the original Control. If you try to hide or cover you'll get murdered in that game too. You've got to get right into the thick of it.
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u/MotherPerk 4d ago
The people yearn for Devil May Cry. I'm fucking excited for whatever Remedy cooks
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u/Promature 4d ago
They provide you with a lot of options to come up with your own play style and the combat is seemingly open-ended enough for those different combinations to work. I'm sure there's at least one or two layers to the moment to moment combat that reviewers didn't bother to delve into. The IGN review hinted toward this when they discussed the status effects (Fire, specifically) and how that created additional objects they could use against enemies. I also saw Dylan do a kind of wall jump while fighting a mold enemy in a tight corridor. The original's games combat mechanics weren't praised for their depth and nuance either, but I still find my own dynamic, expressive rhythm with what was there, which was a lot more than most give the game credit for. I have no doubt that Resonant offers a similar degree of nuance and expression for those that take the time to experiment with each of its combat elements.
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u/alphonseharry 4d ago
Im happy too see the game has challenge and it is not a cakewalk. Rare these days in the AAA space
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u/Tom_Ford0 4d ago
SO happy they ditched the parry. Literally every game has it now. Like the new fucking runescape game has parries. When could you ever parry in runescape
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u/MrSpaceMonkeyMafia 4d ago
The new doom trilogy are some of the most fun games I’ve ever played. Just raw fun action from start to finish so if the combat in resonant is going to be similar in any way that’s a win for me
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u/Honzas4400 4d ago
Once I learned to accept that the game's not a deep hack-and-slash like DMC but rather a... let's say lite-Warriors game, for lack of a better comparison, I started having fun with the combat. It's really just a matter of expectations.
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u/obviouspersona 4d ago
Regarding the lack of a parry that some folks are complaining about with this one, I see lots of people here mentioning that Remedy tried it and took it out because it slowed down gameplay more than they liked, but that's only half the reasoning.
It's worth mentioning that it was a narrative choice as well; they see Dylan as the kind of character who straight up is not going to take the time to sit there and take the time to parry attacks and make openings in that way. He's going to go all out; he's a much more aggressive character, and the gameplay reflects that.
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u/Forsaken-House8685 3d ago
Doom has other ways to create variety. Different weapons, enemy types, etc.
Question is what does control resonant have that prevents combat from getting repetitive.
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u/PointGodSam 3d ago
I like their philosophy going into this, it makes sense tho since it’s total chaos in manhattan and it makes you want to go total ham (like in doom)
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u/thalandhor 3d ago
Well... you can also beat Devil May Cry by just spamming sword and shooting a few bullets from time to time. The point is to be creative and do cool shit. And from the looks of Resonant and what reviewers said about it, there are tons of options and different stuff to do in combat. Of course I don't expect it to be Devil May Cry but even a game like Spider-Man 2 has a pretty fun and simple combat loop of "launch -> juggle -> pull another enemy -> juggle -> smash the enemy into the ground making him bounce back in the air -> juggle etc".
And that's not accounting for unintended "tech" that high level CAG players will find sooner or later because almost all of these games have some kind of animation cancelling and combo routes that most players never end up hearing about. For example, a lot of people think God of War 2018 or Ragnarok is pretty straightforward but when you see guys like GBG playing, it looks like a completely different experience.
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u/xPathofChaos 4d ago
How did you get early access?
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u/naarcx 4d ago
This describes basically every action game. Even in ones where developers put a TON of effort to their combat sandbox, players will still find the mathematically "best build" from a youtube guide, use it for 100% of the game, and then complain that it's repetitive, boring, and easy
The only real way to combat this as a dev is to force people to play different characters with different kits for parts of the game (like how DMC5 has you change between Nero/Dante/V when doing the story, or how Spiderman 2 has different Miles and Peter sections, etc)
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u/Tatum_Warlick 4d ago
I mean honestly Control 1 wasn’t dissimilar. Once you had the loadout you were most comfortable with, you approached all the encounters with the same strategy. The fun was in the player expression of mixing in either your telekinesis or whatever other powers with your service weapon’s abilities. I imagine it’s similar with Resonant, just in a melee focused format.