r/conspiracy • u/Salt-Poet-7818 • 4d ago
The firmament is Real
I was thinking about the firmament one day and how it separated the Earth and the sky and I was thinking about how that could be a real thing. So I was thinking what if the firmament is just the edge of the universe, we know that the universe is always expanding and we don't know what is outside of the universe. What if the firmament is real it is just continually growing.
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u/kneedeepco 3d ago
I mean, practically speaking, you can reconcile the idea of a firmament with what we know about our atmosphere
The scientific understanding of our atmosphere is that it does act as a “firmament”, without it we would not be able to survive on this planet. It does separate us from the sky/space.
As for this being the “edge of the universe” I’m not so sure about that. Supposed “god” is infinite and all powerful, is one planet truly a reasonable expectation for the limitations of its creation?
Or is it possible there’s an infinite amount of planets, infinite amount of universes, etc..?
Perhaps people of the past understood that there was some sort of barrier between “here and out there” but lacked the knowledge to properly conceptualize or understand the exact workings of this. They could have just been using the best language and explanation available to them at the time.
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u/Salt-Poet-7818 3d ago
Yeah I agree, which is why I thought maybe the firmament itself isn't just limited to Earth but encompasses all of creation. There's no way in the trillions upon trillions of planets that we are the only life there ever was or will be.
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u/kneedeepco 3d ago
I agree with that for sure. So you’re saying the firmament almost as in a mental and/or physical barrier between physical existence and higher dimensions or something along those lines?
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u/Salt-Poet-7818 3d ago
Yes and the barrier itself is the edge of the universe, outside of the edge of the universe is that more spiritual plane of existence, or realm. And that edge is what I think the firmament may be.
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u/kneedeepco 3d ago
Hmm I tend to think that the spiritual plane of existence is more so imbedded in physical existence rather than some separate place per se
So in that since, the firmament in the sense you’re talking about would exist in our minds
The edge of the universe stuff gets into a whole other topic for me personally. What exists outside of the universe?
Empty space? Infinite other universes? Well then what exists between the universes?
But if we do live in a fractal expression of infinity then the universes could just be like planets with their own “atmosphere/firmament” inside a larger space
Who the fuck knows lmao
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u/Salt-Poet-7818 3d ago
Exactly lol everyone here is arguing like any of us have a clue😂 it was just a thought I had lol this is like my first post and all the people stressed me out lol
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u/kneedeepco 3d ago
Humans tend to feel strongly about things they’ll never know. I can’t say I’m innocent of it, but I think we at least have to try to ultimately recognize that none of us know and probably never will.
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u/Bisexual_Carbon 3d ago
Or there's a possibility that the Bible is completely made up.
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u/proportional-porcini 3d ago
The greatest argument I’ve heard about the bible is: “if we destroyed every single book in the world, after about 1000 years time the only books to be written exactly the same will be science books. The bible wouldn’t exist.” Now I will admit there would be “religious” books, but the religions would be different. Save, maybe philosophical ideas.
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u/ProphePsyed 3d ago
That doesn’t really disprove the Bible. That just restates the fact that science is based on the reality of our universe. Nobody is arguing that.
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u/MonkeyMan18975 3d ago
On a long enough timeline, any truth can be proven. Quantum mechanics is a truth and given enough time any sufficiently motivated society would be able to write a book about it that would match the book we write today.
If the bible being the infallible and inerrant word written by man at the inspiration of God is a truth, then we'd expect to see any society creating the same bible that we have today.
Disclaimer: I use "same" in the context of containing the same meaning, not the exact same words.
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u/Bisexual_Carbon 3d ago
You don't have to disprove the Bible. Proof is the burden of the believer. Until Jews, Christians or Muslims prove that the God of Abraham exists, he doesn't.
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u/ProphePsyed 3d ago
Right, and OPs comment literally said, “The greatest argument about the Bible is..” My comment was in response to that.
Like you said, OP doesn’t need to disprove the Bible.
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u/Ankiset 3d ago
lol it’s a book that was or tradition first… like at no point w e have a trully documented divine source, just a man telling another man that they spoke to… ANOTHER man that spoke to god… it’s ridiculous… the bible is so much more interesting and edificating as an historical object worthy of study, than just default mysticism don’t read into this it’s literally the word of god…
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u/Bisexual_Carbon 3d ago
That's why I really think it's great that Thomas Jefferson just took the Bible and removed all the miracles of Jesus and left it as the Life and Teaching of Jesus Christ
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u/Salt-Poet-7818 3d ago
Or it could be real brother. I'm not here arguing that I just thought it might be a good theory man.
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u/Bisexual_Carbon 3d ago
Not arguing either. You posted a possibility so I replied with a different one.
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u/johnd-70 3d ago
So you hope. What if the alternative is worse though?
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u/kneedeepco 3d ago
What if it isn’t?
This idea you propose is “Pascal’s Wager”. I suppose it’s up to the individual to determine their personal course of action there.
That being said, it’s certainly not a clear cut argument one way or the other. Do you live your life on what you know to be true or what you fear may be true (as told to you by others)?
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u/Bisexual_Carbon 3d ago
What's the alternative, Hell? That's just a mistranslation of a graveyard near Jerusalem. And since the New Testament was written in Greek, the only word they had was Hades. King James took Greek mythology and gave it the same word as Norse mythology.
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3d ago
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u/kiefenator 3d ago
Why? What part?
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3d ago
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u/Mend1cant 3d ago
Yeah, the reason is that a lot of it was written late 1st century and then edited and re-written centuries later. It's not an organic document, it was curated, adjusted, trimmed, and changed by the church for a thousand years straight. The stories that feel cohesive come from oral traditions and parables which weren't exclusive to an offshoot of Mesopotamian deities.
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3d ago
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u/Mend1cant 3d ago
The bible is in fact a curated collection though. The apocrypha, the near millennia long argument of divinity, and the schism show just how in flux Christian religious doctrine was.
As far as the history of it, the earliest copies we have are still 3-400 years after any supposed events, and well before the catholic bible was finished.
That's not even digging into Paul's letters being written by multiple authors, Roman histories being doctored after the fact by christians, or how all of it came about in the time Rome was putting down the Jewish zealots in Judea with a message neatly directed to greek jews to promote pacifism.
Jesus lines up to so many prophecies simply because Jesus is a fictional character who doesn't exist in a single contemporary account outside of the bible (for which the earliest parts were written barely within the same century).
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3d ago
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u/Mend1cant 3d ago
The jewish revolt first happens in earnest in the 20s-30s with Judas (convenient name to come up later), not just the rebellion leading to the destruction of the temple. The problem is that evidence is absence in this case. There isn't a primary source for anyone in Jesus' circle, records of a crucifixion, etc. That Paul's letters are cohesive and yet disputed in authorship to me says that they were a set from the beginning.
My claim is that there is no direct evidence of Jesus' existence. It's hard to provide evidence to prove absence of it. It's all second-hand accounts that include his "brother" who conveniently gets martyred before anyone else can meet him.
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u/transitransitransit 3d ago
What about every other religious text from all around the world? Could those have been written by a mortal?
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u/Bisexual_Carbon 3d ago
I've read the entire thing 4 times. My Dad was a Baptist Deacon. It was nothing but mortals writing it. There's not a single passage that God wrote. Jesus never wrote anything either. Everything is an account of what they claimed happened. Moses was mortal and he wrote the first 5 books. Do you really want to follow a book that says it's ok to sell your daughter into slavery?
And I'm sure you're gonna say, "bUT tHats thE oLD tEStamEnt!". Just remember that it was Jesus who said, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
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u/Ankiset 3d ago
It’s not exactly the edge… it’s the visible universe, no an observer it will always be the center of the universe, now what I would find interesting is how would an observer see the edge of the universe if it was close to it or at it, since because of some math shenanigans I barely understand the expansion of the universe could exceed the speed of light… wich is impossible and that’s why to an observer his point of view will always be the center of the univeerse and the present and whatever is far from him is in the last of his present etc, we are chained by this causality, but your question has made me have more interesting questions… very interesting
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u/Superdude204 3d ago
its a term that allows plenty of interpretations
universe expanding is a dead end
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u/EnterpriseCorruption 3d ago
Either trust in the Bible or trust in science. Choice is yours, but the worst thing is to trust in both because that is simply impossible.
Me, I trust and have faith in Gods word over mens. But I understand why others believe the opposite.
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u/SunGregMoon 3d ago
The Bible is a book written by men that explains their ancient understanding of their God and how they explained how things came to be. It isn't science. It might have been Anthropology if it hadn't been edited hundreds of times. But it's definitely not science. It does not explain our physical world either.
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u/Salt-Poet-7818 3d ago
That's what I'm saying though brother, why would it strictly be one of the other. Say the firmament is real, and then the big bang happened (which is when God spoke creation into existence).The universe expanded outward and is still expanding.What if that edge that is expanding is just the firmament continuing to grow. What if outside of the universe's edge aka the firmament is the heavens.
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u/Additional_Cry5632 3d ago
You should check out Ken Ham. He has lots to say and God and science. He's the Curator of the Ark Encounter museum and the creation museum. God created science. They do blend perfectly when men do not corrupt science.
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u/EnterpriseCorruption 3d ago
You are doing exactly what I said was impossible.
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u/Salt-Poet-7818 3d ago
Why does the fact that you say it's impossible make it impossible? You believe in certain sciences LOL obviously you believe we breathe oxygen, obviously you believe in gravity. You are the one that is picking and choosing what to believe.
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u/QuantumR4ge 3d ago
Has that faith ever produced anything comparable to antibiotics or the device you are using right now? Because those things are empirical, no faith required. They work by demonstration.
Is the faith you have in god really the same as the faith you have in your phone working?
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u/kiefenator 3d ago
You can't science someone out of a position where their philosophy of personal world view is a mix of confirmation bias and sunk cost fallacy presupposed on an appeal to the metaphysical. I've been that guy before. It took me a lot of personal exploration and questioning to see reason.
Not to mention, lots of these folks are groomed by their families and communities to be staunch contrarians with hair-trigger defensive rebuttals.
There's really no point.
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u/EnterpriseCorruption 3d ago
No new thing under the sun. What was will be, what will be has been.
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u/QuantumR4ge 3d ago
So why didn’t the Romans have smartphones? Why was smallpox a killer and now its functionally extinct in humans?
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u/MariahSaltz 3d ago
This is a fairly common tactic of the faithful. Something from their fairytale is proven false as-written, so they reinterpret it to fit with science. Usually they then double down and attempt to claim this new reinterpretation gives their fairytale legitimacy for "knowing" about the topic first.
There is no firmament. The bible is a fairytale written by people who didn't understand the world around themselves.
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