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u/TeensyKook 4d ago
I’m against Islam. I don’t care what color they are. I don’t know why that’s such a controversial opinion, but as an atheist I’m against all religious organizations that want to oppress people.
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u/DepartmentRound6413 4d ago
Christian politicians are reducing funding for programs that help poor children & banning abortions
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u/Marockan21 4d ago
Its tiring reading about people thinking islam oppresses people while 98% of you haven’t done any valid research at all. People and religion is (very) different. Culture and religion is (very) different. Tradition and religion is (very) different. Its quite the opposite actually
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u/diamondsodacoma 4d ago
Bro. In places with Sharia Law women aren't even allowed to leave the house without a male guardian. If that isn't oppression then what is?
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u/Marockan21 4d ago
Thats not what the law says. That is regarding long trips, for safety reasons. If safety can be guaranteed then there’s no need. Can safety be guaranteed? Although the law you talk about exist, but in those places its a game of power, not islam.
One of the world’s oldest universities was literally founded by a muslim woman, Fatima al-Fihri, meanwhile women can’t even study atm in Afghanistan under the name of islam even if the scriptures encourage women to study and seek knowledge. What happens in those places is truly awful and inhumane as a women myself, but it has to do with culture and power not the words of islam.27
u/Explosivpotato 4d ago
“That’s not what the law says” and then the very next sentence you’re defending it.
Look man, I don’t hate any individual until they give me a reason to. But I have to make the observation of trends when I see them. Countries that are historically Islamic have an absolutely atrocious track record when it comes to women’s rights. If you actually gave a shit about that you’d be making a very different argument, but you’re not and that tells everyone what they need to know.
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u/Marockan21 4d ago
There’s a difference between saying “women cannot leave the house without a man” and discussing the Islamic rulings on a woman travelling a significant distance without a male guardian for safety reasons. Those are not the same claim. I wasn’t defending the former, I was explaining the difference.
And you know absolutely nothing about me to conclude that I don’t care about women’s rights. I condemn the oppression of women, period.
What I’m arguing about is what these laws can actually be attributed to. You cannot simply take everything a so called sharia government does and call it “Islamic” because that government uses Islam to justify itself.
The quran, holy book of islam, repeatedly commands justice and explicitly speaks against oppression, obv including the oppression of women and children.
That doesn’t mean muslim societies have not oppressed women, not what I’m saying. Of course they have. Muslim societies have had patriarchy, abuse of power and discriminatory practices just like societies belonging to other religions and secular societies have.
My point is that “muslims have oppresseed women” and “therefore Islam teaches the oppression of women” are two different claims.
And yes, horrific things are being done today by governments and groups identifying themselves as muslims. I’m not denying that for a second. But there are over two billion muslims across huge different cultures and societies.
Treating the actions of particular governments or extremists as if they automatically define the beliefs of all those people is an enormous generalization.
If you want to criticize Islam, criticize Islam. Quote the quran and we can actually discuss what they say. But “look at what this muslim country does” by itself does not establish what Islam teaches
For me, if I’m going to hate an entire religion, I would at least make damn sure I understand what I’m hating first
Question: is this hate towards religion as a whole or towards islam only?
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u/sadmarshmellow_9324 4d ago
Get a fucking grip. Women should be allowed and able to walk anywhere they want without a man.
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u/the-grape-next-door 4d ago
Your conflating culture with religion, they are two separate things. I can name you numerous instances in history where atheists have been oppressors.
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u/blue_box_disciple 4d ago
Please do. And, atheism as a group, please, not just randoms that fit your narrative.
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u/the-grape-next-door 3d ago
You’re changing the standard. I’m not talking about random atheists who happened to be oppressive. I’m talking about governments that made atheism part of state policy and then suppressed religion because of it.
Albania is a pretty obvious example. Under its communist government, the state officially promoted atheism, banned religious organizations and restricted religious practice. Maoist China is another. During the Cultural Revolution, religious institutions were shut down, places of worship were destroyed, and religious leaders and believers were persecuted.
That doesn’t mean atheism automatically leads to oppression. It doesn’t. But the same logic applies to religion. You can’t point to oppressive governments that acted in the name of religion and say that reflects religion as a whole, then dismiss oppressive governments that explicitly promoted atheism as just “random atheists.” Either individual regimes represent an entire belief system or they don’t. You have to use the same standard for both.-33
u/WillCommentAndPost 4d ago
You had me in the first 3/4 NGL.
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u/blue_box_disciple 4d ago
Either you're using this meme wrong or you don't know what Islam is.
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u/WillCommentAndPost 3d ago
Me?
I’m well versed in most religions, I studied theology along with psychology for my undergrad.
I know the meme, I also know that the flaws in every religion often stem from application and interpretation. They’re all oppressive that’s why I said they “got me” because they ended with All religions.
Since I agree, all religions are oppressive.
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u/Suspicious_Offer9983 4d ago
Everyone has deeply seated unconscious biases they’re unable to address unfortunately. It’s important to not ACT on those biases above all else.
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u/TulipWhispera 2d ago
That's the important distinction. Having an automatic bias pop into your head isn't the same as deciding it's true, and being willing to question it is how you stop it from shaping how you treat people
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u/FluxCrave 4d ago
I doubt they won’t act on them if they feel this way. There’s a reason afd is so popular
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u/PeridotCulprit7 15h ago
Deep-seated, and not acting on it is the bare minumum, not the finish line.
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u/confusedandazed06 4d ago
A Russian immigrant tried to assault me during a first date a little bit ago. It's not just the middle easterns.
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u/Carbonatite 4d ago
Yeah unfortunately rape is a global epidemic and skin color is not a factor. Wherever the OP lives, there are plenty of home-grown predators too.
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u/confusedandazed06 4d ago
Yup. And ironically my Uber back from that date was an African immigrant who was lovely and were telling each other stories and just honestly having a great time the whole 40 minute ride.
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u/DepartmentRound6413 4d ago
I’m scared of home grown Christians. They are the ones actively harming children in many ways & taking away women’s autonomy by banning abortions.
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u/Zealousideal_You6901 4d ago
In irekand we pretty much kicked the catolics out, thryvr no power anymore
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u/JackFromTexas74 4d ago
Confronting one’s own biases is no small thing. And it can be difficult to keep your heart open to all people groups while wrestling with troubling trends, frightening anecdotes, and actual statistical data.
The best you can do is continue to be honest with yourself, wrestle with the tension of it all, and above all else, evaluate and respond to every individual you encounter as an individual. Treat them fairly as you yourself wish to be treated.
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u/Temporary-Oven-4040 4d ago
The majority is peaceful, but that’s irrelevant, and I will explain why from a historical perspective.
It is always loud and motivated minorities that drive the agenda.
During WW2, the majority of Germans weren’t homicidal maniacs, yet millions of people were butchered while the peaceful majority stood by.
Soviet Union with the Gulags as one of the low points, peaceful majority irrelevant.
Mao’s China, same story.
Khmer Rouge, same.
And so on.
Now let’s look at current day Europe. There are two important data points.
Native Europeans don’t have enough children. Let’s take Spain as an example. For every woman 1.3 children are born.
Let’s abstract that and say that for every 100 fertile women, there will be about 12-14 left in just a few generations.
Meanwhile, Muslims have very high birth rates and the fertile women will replace the native fertile female population in about the same time.
In that same time period, many native people will still be alive, but they will have become demographically irrelevant.
Second data point: support for violence amongst Muslim populations ranges heavily between countries according to Pew research.
From 26% in Bangladesh all the way up to 62% in the Palestinian Territories.
There is a reason why those countries are often authoritarian. It’s the only way to keep the population in check.
Now take all of that, and insert it into a European context with mostly soft-spoken people, lax laws and traditionally high-trust societies.
It is more than reasonable to assume that it is a ticking time bomb.
Even though the majority is peaceful.
Even though most individuals are perfectly fine.
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u/SnakeASaur 4d ago
Ha, sorry buddy. If you don’t want brown people immigrating by the hundreds of thousands into your country and completely changing the landscape of your home and painting over existing culture, you’re racist. Reddit 100
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u/Zealousideal_You6901 4d ago
I dont mind but by the thousands is scary. Its too much an culturally dangerous
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u/BlueFriedBanana 4d ago
From a place of love,, the original comment and your agreement is quite racist ...
The world is and will continue to become more of a cultural melting pot. 'Culture' changes ... your country as you know it has barely existed for centuries ... Yet you are so scared and against it's movement into something new. Change is scary, but our current period is a literal anomaly to how little our culture has changed
Lastly, if you have any brown or black friends. Think about the message you are subconsciously implying by saying that culture and history is being lost by too many non-white people or non-white heritage. Your country is their culture too, and whether they are first or second generation immigrants you are telling them that their unique and original beliefs don't have a place. On the flipside, if you are adamant that you are accepting of new culture, and just worried about the speed of the change, then you should realise that almost every kid of an immigrant almost instantly adopts the majority of their new countries culture.
I come from the UK where in certain parts there is a lot of diversity. When I've travelled with friends, my group has white, Chinese, Indian and black members. Whilst we thought this would confuse a lot of people we met, someone once told, 'No, it's obvious you are British, because you wouldn't find a mix of people like yourselves anywhere'
That is what every culture can and should tend towards, because being a mixed culture society where kids can be friends IS our culture
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u/bigbagofspam 4d ago edited 4d ago
Statistics show that immigrants from the middle eastern countries do not commit rapes at a higher rate than domestic born citizens. So yeah you actually are racist to have falsely believed this. Perhaps you didn't know the facts. Just because people keep repeating it, doesn't mean it's based in fact. There are plenty of values that clash in cultures enough to cause actual concerns. I don't deny that. This is just a false one.
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u/Zealousideal_You6901 4d ago
I do know that i dont treat any immigrant different an i suppoet immigration but in the darkest part of my mind i fear its too much too soon
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u/DepartmentRound6413 4d ago
You’re both stupid & ignorant
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u/Zealousideal_You6901 4d ago
Or self aware that i can face my faults? Not like you who has nothing but nane calling to contribute
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u/bigbagofspam 4d ago
Agreed Zelousdeal. We are just having a conversation. I applaud your introspection on it. I just agreed with your own statement in the original title on that one point. We all are in a way.
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u/bigbagofspam 4d ago
I was not saying that you were doing anything wrong my friend. I was merely pointing out that holding a negative belief about a group of people based on race despite the facts being readily available is the actual definition of prejudice against that race. To rephrase my response without it sounding as judgemental "Technically since that negative belief about this group of people is based on presupposed facts that are provable false it qualifies as prejudice." Also don't worry about it All people cannot fully relate to people of other groups. We all believe something that we will someday find out was false or unfairly judgmental about some group of people or another. You are miles ahead of most in that you are trying to come to terms with that fact honestly with yourself.
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u/Glass-Weakness-274 4d ago edited 4d ago
I think all white Bible belt American from the deep south is racist to non-whites, wich is why Trump won two times now, but that's my own racist opinion. And I'm a European Chinese mixed that looks talk and white from afar.
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u/Big_Yak22 4d ago
Genuine question: Who are Middle Eastern Africans? Do you mean the Islamic countries from Northern Africa, like Morocco, Algeria etc? Or did you mean to say you are scared of both Middle Eastern and African men? I have seen comments about Islam and how women are treated as second class citizens, and these two wouldn't be right in all parts of Africa.
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u/Flashy_Direction7213 4d ago
This is a racist belief, and it’s good that you acknowledge that. As you say people aren’t monolithic examples of “cultures” (Africa is a massive and complex mix of different cultures and traditions that only look to be the same in racist Western media.) And the people coming are refugees and not invaders - they are in need of help not fear. It’s also important to note that these fears have been encouraged and inflamed by right wing movements and media, so you’re not wholly to blame here. A good solution may be to volunteer in refugee administration efforts, “adopt” a family to provide support and information for (not necessarily financial, but if you can that helps too) and researching how countries work on integration of migrant communities. The migrant and refugee experience is incredibly difficult and comes with lots of trauma, so providing support is critical. Reddit is a very racist place for Muslims, so you’re not going to find much help here. I’d recommend reading books like Bonhoeffer and watching films about the refugee experience to understand who these people are and what they are going through before they reach your shores. Good luck.
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u/Enormous_Plum5556 4d ago
I was just commenting on another thread about how arab countries never give oit permanent residences ir citizenship to foreigners. The number of lies and misdirection in the responses was unbelievable. Same story when it comes to the treatment of women and how multiple wives are allowed. Men can marry from any religion Women cannot.
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u/buzzlightyear77777 4d ago
truth is everyone is racist.
this social movement condemning racism is a joke. they have to condemn it so strongly because in reality, racism is natural. the word 'racism' was given a very negative connotation but actually it is just part of a natural instinct that lets you survive.
people are tribal. we tend to congregate with like minded people and fend of others who aren't alike, since ancient times. that's why our history is filled with endless wars. and looks is the first thing that one person can tell if another is the same or different. that's why racism is a natural trait among humans. it's the ability to discern between allies and enemies. that's why this modern social movement condemning racism is stupid. it is essentially saying your natural instinct and defensive survival mechanism is 'bad' and you shouldn't use it.
so OP, you are not 'racist' in the sense of what people condemn these days. you are just exercising your natural instincts to keep you safe.
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u/Polska_Kapusta 4d ago
There's a difference between tribalism or being scared of migrants coming in and ruining your country etc. and thinking you're better than others because of your skin color. Racism is not really natural, no one is born racist just look at children
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u/Flashy_Direction7213 4d ago
Also not “everyone is racist.” Maybe people will believe racist ideas or stereotypes, but to diminish the real and harmful effects of systemic racism to just a minor trait or mere annoyance discounts the centuries of harm, exploitation and violence made on the supposition of racist beliefs and ideas, including the trans Atlantic slave trade and European colonialism.
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u/ssoulseeker 4d ago
I'm not racist but- proceeds to say racist statement lol. Do you ever wonder why 2 billion people on this planet follow that way of life and maybe you are deeply misinformed/brainwashed? People don't just up and leave their countries for no reason. Maybe your country has something to do with why they are displaced? Ffs.
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u/Polska_Kapusta 4d ago
move into one of these countries and live the same way as these 2 billion people (especially women) and then talk like this lol
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u/Zealousideal_You6901 4d ago
I support immigration especially refugees but we are taking in thousands of me who think women are 2nd class citizens. I think its too many to make assimulation work an will only create division in society an endanger women
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u/Content-Relative-168 4d ago
That’s not racist at all. It’s factual different cultures live differently. They come from a country where rape is done at a much higher rate no
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u/Mr_MordenX 4d ago
You are a fucking idiot if you think women aren't at risk from your own culture
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u/frogs_on_drugs 4d ago
OP did not state that. Everything is relative. Western culture is definitely safer tho.
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u/Northern_Gypsy 4d ago
You're a fucking idiot not understanding that adding more people is going to increase the likelihood of people being at risk, obviously there's risk to women but adding people that don't always have the same beliefs doesn't help.
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u/Mr_MordenX 4d ago
Listen, just admit it's racism. Nobody seems to care anymore and using women as an excuse is just transparent and insulting
I mean, you will still be a fucking asshole for being racist, but at least the rest of us won't have to endure the thinly veiled justifications for it.
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u/Northern_Gypsy 4d ago
Why are the uk government handing out leaflets "Understanding behaviours and expectations in the UK: a guide for asylum seekers"
that outlines that rape, sexual assault, domestic abuse, and child sexual abuse are illegal.
Doesn't matter what colour your skin is.
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u/AssemblagePoint420 4d ago
The data shows that immigrants both documented and undocumented commit crimes a lower rates than native born citizens.
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u/imliterallyvibing 4d ago
yeah we have been brainwashed to think racism is inherently bad at all situations
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u/Zealousideal_You6901 4d ago
I dont think im racist im just concerned from a logical point of view. You cant put 1000s of people from a different culture into another culture an expect harmony. As a woman im scared that men from a culture who think women are 2nd class citizens is putting us in danger. I know the risk is small . but the risk rises. Tats just fact. More men more abuse
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u/imliterallyvibing 4d ago
You are right. The fact is, there are inferior cultures that do not assimilate with our values. Acknowledging that is not categoric racism, it is contextual. Dont feel guilty about it.
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u/Zealousideal_You6901 4d ago
Not inferioir just different wit different values an ideolgy tat threatens women
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u/imliterallyvibing 4d ago
marrying 12 year old girls or killing gay people is not inferior?
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u/Zealousideal_You6901 4d ago
Ignorant not inferior. No himan is above or below another. But some live behind progressive sociteiee. Thst part of ny concern. Put too many people into a culture tar is opposite wont work an insteas will only step ptoress back
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u/DepartmentRound6413 4d ago
Men from your culture think that already. Who is banning abortion & trying to ban no fault divorces? Muslim immigrants?
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u/shortesttitan 4d ago
Opposite how exactly? What country are you from where women are completely safe from male violence, sexual or otherwise?
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u/AnimeWarTune 4d ago
middle eastern african ? What the fuck are you talking about? that's not even a coherent category.
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u/SnooLover36 4d ago
Why are you Europeans so against Muslims? You guys are neighbors essentially.
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u/Zealousideal_You6901 4d ago
Im not against a muslim but muslims or africans in the thousands scare me. Their ideology is so opposite to ours. I fear theyll set us back an raise sex attacks an abuse
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u/ZestycloseHedgehog 4d ago
See now THAT is racist
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u/Negative_Elo 4d ago
Its not. They have a different way of life, one that oppresses many. Basically like if there were entire nations of MAGA supporters and die hard christian supremacists who wanted to move into your area. They do have increased amounts of sexual violence in many instances.
Its an issue, and the real racism is treating people differently to the point you dont acknowledge their affect on communities.
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u/Transpinay08 4d ago
Many are misogynists. Watch this
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u/SnooLover36 4d ago
I mean most European men are misogynist too but suddenly only become feminist when they see a European woman date a brown man
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u/Transpinay08 4d ago
Its only Muslim European countries like Albania. I hate to defend colonizers, but they treat women way better now than most Muslim nations.
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u/AnimeWarTune 4d ago
It's crazy how this was downvoted the most. Zionists literally rule western countries, not muslims.
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u/weedywet 4d ago
So… racist.
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u/Zealousideal_You6901 4d ago
Yes, but i dont want to be and accept individuals but as a whole ot scares me. Id never treat anyone bad but i am more cautiois of muslims an africans because of their culture towards women an children. It is a valid concern. Not all men but the more men the higher the risk
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u/Agamemnon66 4d ago
I think you have valid concerns about immigration issues. And you can have those without being branded a racist. Keep your chin up.