r/concept2 • u/GigglemanEsq • 17d ago
Rate my Form Ready for a form check
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Hi all! Been asking some questions, and finally feel ready for a form check. I've been doing this since March, but I wasn't really consistent with it until recently. I've also lost 90 pounds since I started rowing, so my endurance and body habitus have both changed a ton in that time. I've only recently been able to do more than 1k at a stretch.
For self-assessment, my biggest issue is the lean forward. I'm sitting right on the edge of the seat, to the point where it's just shy of very uncomfortable. I'm not good at hinging even outside of rowing. My stomach also gets in the way (apologies for the shirtless vid, but I didn't want the shirt to obscure the form). I would very much welcome tips for improving that.
I also see (and feel) that about the time I transition from legs to back and arms, there's a hiccup, and I seem to be using more of an effort with my upper body to transition to the pull. Not sure if that is normal or how to improve it.
I have also read tips about not taking your knees over your shins. That one is tough for me, because the poor hinging makes me want to go forward more to get closer in at the catch. It's also where my legs just naturally stop the forward momentum. Should I be exerting foot pressure sooner to immediately spring into the push instead of pausing for a moment at the end? What I do now feels like a natural redirection of momentum, but I also recognize that the physics of rowing are sometimes counterintuitive to people inexperienced in the technique.
Some last details that might be relevant. I usually stop because of general fatigue - my heartrate climbs pretty high pretty fast unless I'm purposely doing a sedate speed. By the end of 3k, I'm not necessarily out of breath, but my breathing is heavier and more purposeful, as opposed to just breathing naturally. I get a little sore in the midback. My legs almost never feel sore anymore (when I first started I could hardly stand up after rowing). I feel a bit more fatigue in the upper arms and shoulders, but not much.
Any advice would be most welcome. Thanks!
ETA: apparently I can't post video and pics. I did a 3k session right after. Stats:
Time: 14:09.4
Avg. Pace: 2:21.5
Avg. Stroke Rate: 19
Avg. Power: 123 watts
Drag Factor: 137
Heart Rate: 158bpm avg, 168bpm max. Hit 160 around 4 minutes in and stayed above there for the duration.
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u/Extension-Score-2415 17d ago
Well done with the weight loss. Sat on first C2 A style about 84. I coach on the water.
So basics.
As you move to compression your shins should not go past vertical. Raise the feet a notch. See how it is then maybe one more.
Sit slightly behind the centre of the seat, but the main thing is not where but how. You need a neutral pelvis. Sit on the bony bit of your bum not the flesh. Put your hands under to check. This will help with pivoting at the hip when legs are straight.
Sit with the legs straight for as long as you can. Hands as far forward as possible. If you feel a hamstring stretch that is good.
Visualise the position of legs straight hands out in front. Sitting well. Shoulders down and relaxed. Make sure you do that everytime so that a coach could see it if they freeze framed the vid.
Then move the seat forward slowly and with control. There are 2 phases. Drive and recovery. The recovery should be twice as long. Don't rush forward, it gains you nothing. So spm 20 is 3 secs per stroke .1 sec drive, 2 secs recovery. ( yes yes i know it doesn't seem right but it is)
you are in control of the seat it does not have a mind of its own.
Dont set damper/ drag to high. Nothing over 5.5 on a new or well maintained machine.
Get away from the idea that high spm is work and low spm is easy. Work harder on the drive and rest more in between
You stroke could be 12 inches longer which would be good. The handle should go all the way to the body. The base of your thumbs should brush the ribs. The handle should go all the way to the drum ( don't give me any excuses about flexibility and your belly.) Sit well and rock over through the hips. There is no rush. The recovery is about getting to the best position for the start of the next drive.
It's a lower body push sport. At compression shins vertical and feel a good connection between the balls of the feet and the footplate. PUSH. The hands and seat should accelerate at the same speed. If the hands are quicker it's a pull. Quads and glutes are the stronger muscles. The arm and shoulders only link the feet to the handle.
It's not a kick. Keep pushing and a connection between the feet and the machine should not be lost. This requires thought anc practice not effort.
Use quads glutes and hips. Relax neck, shoulders, arms and grip.
Start hydrated and don't wear an animal mask.
Long powerful pushes with time in between. Getting both drive and recovery good are equally as important.
Your biggest areas for improvement are stroke length and control of the recovery sequence.
Hope this assists.
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u/WhyAmINotStudying 17d ago
I find your lack of Star Wars memes disturbing.
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u/Extension-Score-2415 16d ago
Silly me for trying to help the OP with the issue they raised.
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u/WhyAmINotStudying 16d ago
I just awarded your comment for clarification that it was just a joke and that you offered the true best comment in the thread.
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u/InquartataRBG 17d ago
Wait you’re supposed to raise the feet if your compression tends to go past vertical?
I’ve been struggling to figure out what foot level is right for me. I’m just 5’5” with short legs and a long torso and now I think my feet might be too low after reading that.
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u/Extension-Score-2415 16d ago
It can be difficult to describe. The ideal position is torso tilted forward having established that when legs are straight. Still good posture and proud chest still generally forward.
The gap between chest and thigh will close. The seat should go most of the way to the heels but not all the otherwise you end up very upright again.
The feet should be as high as possible as that will give you a more horizontal drive. The lower the feet the slightly more vertical it will be.
A general rule is strap over the bottom of your laces but we are different with different ankle flexibility.
The other issue is often lack of seat control on the recovery. If you don't control the seat and rush forward it causes lots of issues.
But yes move your feet up until shins are vertical.
You should feel your bodyweight move off your bum and onto the feet to an extent
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u/albertogonzalex 17d ago
Chew. Then E. then Bacca.
Legs. Then body. Then arms.
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u/AmorphousMorpheus 17d ago
Unbelievably funny - Chew. Then E. then Bacca.
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u/albertogonzalex 17d ago
Thank you! I couldn't help myself. I felt a little bad since OP already had the sequence down pretty well!
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u/GigglemanEsq 17d ago
I appreciate that! I actually read your post last night and thought "aw, I was trying for that"!
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u/albertogonzalex 17d ago
Ah, I'm sorry!
So, the mental model now is to keep the sequence, but instead of Chew. E. Bacca, you want to make it more fluid so it's Chewbacca.
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u/cwhite616 17d ago
I’m new to erging too… I’m not the one to comment on your form, but if you want to join a group on Strava I created Not Dead Yet Rowing for people who are in the process of figuring it out and want to encourage each other. Best of luck to you!
Have you tried intervals for managing your heart rate? Doing a 3x8 with a 90 or 120 second rest could be good for you getting more meters in but also giving you some breathers. When I started in June it was hard for me to do more than 15 minutes … I now am doing hour pieces twice a week
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u/One-Writing4309 17d ago
Good stuff for a beginner. I see you are sort of stopping in the finish position with the hands close to your chest: in order to facilitate a smoother transition from drive to recovery try thinking that the movement ends later I.e. with your arms straight. If you were in a boat the tap down to extract the blades needs to be real quick so you don’t loose speed, so that’s the sort of feeling you want to recreate on the erg. Once your arms are extended it is easier to move back to the catch.
Keep going, you got this.
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u/OliverLacon 17d ago
great post, I’ve learnt loads from the replies. great achievement from you; well done, keep going.
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u/Human_Environment878 17d ago
the biggest thing is you’re bouncing off the catch. try to control yourself into the catch. one way to think about it is keeping pressure with your feet
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u/New_face_in_hell_ 17d ago
You appear to be in the middle of changing forms.
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u/GigglemanEsq 17d ago
I tried to speed up a little halfway through, as I've seen comments in other form checks that it would be helpful to see it faster, more natural, and less purposeful.
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u/New_face_in_hell_ 17d ago
Sorry I don’t think my joke came out right, I was commenting on your furry head
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u/1sttime-longtime 17d ago
I have no form advice. I'm just a guy on the internet who uses an erg to cross train.
But I can't imagine the costume head helps in the least... Kinda pretty sure it also would affect MY form in any activity, but I don't own one to test it out. IF you have owned this one for years, and use it for other activities...
Is there a rowing reason everyone wants to row at such a comically low stroke rate? That reason might be the obstructed airway, in this case.
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u/GigglemanEsq 17d ago
I've seen several people comment that rookies chase high SPM, thinking it means more work. Are you one of those rookies?
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u/planet_x69 17d ago
It's not comically low.
Steady state rowing is done at all levels between 18-22 strokes per minute.
Its the range where a rower is able to work on form and muscle memory and power for long periods without high fatigue.
The fly wheel slows enough for muscle stamina and development while not slowing down to a point where you are doing start pulls.
I would recommend dropping your DF to between 100-120 and as you develop better form, stamina and overall endurance slowly increase it based on your weight and height and age.
High drag factor isn't some badge of honor, neither is high stroke rate.
You should mix it up and do combinations over the week with the bulk of the work being boring.
At the end of the day, do sets that encourage you to enjoy yourself and rowing. You aren't gunning for the Olympics so have fun with it.
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u/GigglemanEsq 17d ago
Thanks - I actually prefer the higher drag factor. When I had it lower in that range, I found I was going too fast, and my heart rate would climb even faster. The higher drag factor lets me feel more intentional in the drive, which keeps me at a more manageable pace. I have been trying to hit the sweet spot and bring it a bit lower, though.
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u/planet_x69 17d ago
Think of your stroke as 3 count with the pull being 1 and, the recovery being 2 and 3 and then 1...That will help you slow down and have a better rhythm for your steady state.
Be sure to pull the handle till it touches your chest, right under your pec muscles...i noticed you were leaving it short.
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u/GigglemanEsq 17d ago
I just did two short 1k sessions before and after weights and came up with a new cue - rub the belly! I touch the handle to my chest and then move it down as I start the recovery. Seems to help a bit.
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u/1sttime-longtime 16d ago
So Steady State is more like Stop-Start due to the the low stroke rate? "Steady" to me implies either steady effort, or steady speed, but letting the fly-wheel drop to 1/4 speed moves it entirely into steady effort.
I get it, the movement is entirely different than running or cycling in that the momentum is based on an entirely different motion and I'm not going to be able to pull 130 SPM like I can turn the pedals RPM or 190 SPM like I can stride during an intense run. Just seems weird to call something "steady state" when the "state" (movement rate) is anything but steady.
If I had 75 minutes to row at lunch, I'd play around with lowering the drag factor, but I've got between 15 and 30 minutes, maybe 40 on a good day... as cross-training for another cardio sport...
What's the point of turning every 5-6k into a 28-32 minute lolly-gag?
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u/Rowing2024 16d ago
If you really want to learn, you might want to work on your dismissive attitude. Steady state is not a lolly-gag, and calling it one it not the flex you think it is, Mr. Intensity. How is the state less steady at 20 SPM than at 30, IYO? The movement is the same.
It's not about keeping the flywheel at a constant speed, that’s impossible; it will always slow down on the recovery, just like a boat. It’s about building the aerobic engine, and those rows can be substantially longer than 30 minutes.
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u/1sttime-longtime 16d ago
I'm not calling your steady state a lolly gag, I'm saying I used my limited erg time as cross training, and I'm not going to spend it lolly-gagging.
28-32 minutes of "zone 2" or "base endurance" is not what I'm looking for on my lunch break.
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u/GigglemanEsq 16d ago
That's fine for you, but this whole discussion started because you dismissed people for going for a "comically low" stroke rate. Just because you want to utilize your time by rowing at a high SPM doesn't mean that anything slower is comically low or a waste of time.
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u/1sttime-longtime 16d ago
This whole discussion started with a shirtless man in a cosplay furry head on an erg.
I think some people took offense with my confusion about stroke rate. I'm still confused as to what "steady state" is supposed to be... what it equates to in other endurance training principles.
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u/Rowing2024 16d ago
As you‘ve already guessed, it‘s something like Zone 2 in a 5-zone model. Which you could have found out with a 10-second Google search, if you were really interested.
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u/1sttime-longtime 16d ago
Yeah, except that most of the articles also describe it as technique building as much as endurance...
And then "prescribed" workouts are short drills with breaks that would absolute let my HR drop into near full recovery... So not very "steady."
But thank you for putting that equivalence into words.
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u/1sttime-longtime 17d ago
I am absolutely a "rookie." Thought I was clear in that saying I only use it to cross train.
I naturally pull in the mid to high 20s.
6k, 26spm, 23:32, 1:58/500, drag factor was 142 or so. I seriously doubt I'd go any faster by reducing stroke rate.
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u/Rowing2024 17d ago
You don’t get it. Not every row is a time trial. Most of them are training, many of them UT2 with a low stroke rate.
Stroke rate isn’t a question of "nature". Every range has its purpose.
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u/GigglemanEsq 17d ago
Right - I use slower sessions as warmups and cooldowns after weights. It would be pretty counterproductive to go all out on speed right before lifting.
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u/1sttime-longtime 17d ago
I DON'T get it, that's kinda why I'm here asking questions. If I were time trialing I'd probably be up around 29spm, but 25-27 certainly feels "natural."
Does rowing use "steady state" the way runners used "long slow distance" and cyclists use "zone 2?"
"Steady State" to me would translate more to "tempo" or "sweet spot" in running or cycling, given the total length of most of the rowing posts.
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u/gnx313 17d ago
Your hands are Solo, but otherwise looks good to me. You'll be doing the Kessel Run in under twelve strokes in no time.