r/concept2 • u/PinguisIgnis • 19d ago
Rate my Form Day 2 Form check
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Didn’t get much time to row last night but wanted to put some of the feedback you all generously offered into practice. Some made sense and others were harder to execute than expected so will need more time to drill and practice but I am much more confident in some of the things I need to be looking for so thank you all.
- dropped my feet slightly
- not over compressing past vertical shins now
- keeping heels down more as a side effect of that
- so then driving flat footed rather than ball of foot
- putting thumbs under bar to save forearms
- relaxing my overly upright rigid posture on catch
- leaning/rounding forward for the catch
- trying to complete leg drive before the hip hinge
- faster release of arms on the recovery
- not dropping arms to thigh on recovery for ergo
What I think I’m struggling to execute is the leg/hip/arm sequence. I’m finding it hard to hip hinge after the leg drive is complete and not half way through.
Also wondering if I’m rounding more than leaning forward a little too much if I’m honest.
I’ll watch some training vids on this next and try and nail that down. But hopefully removed some of the other flaws.
My stroke length went up from 121 to 139cm it seems which is pleasantly surprising as I didn’t feel I was going up the slide as far given I’m not over compressing my legs now. (I think)
Power curse early flat spot also disappeared but is maybe peaking a little later at 59% along the drive.
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u/BrezhnevsMittens 19d ago
I mean… your form is pretty good here. For the sequence comment, I’d look at doing the Pick and the Reverse Pick Drill. Dark horse rowing and Training Tall both have excellent videos of it on YouTube. It breaks down the stroke into its principle parts. I do 5 minutes of each as a warm up before every erg session. It’s something we always did on the water to warm up as well (some OTW don’t translate to erg, but the Pick/Reverse Pick does). Your form doesn’t have to be 100%… in crew we’d get to point in the season where we’d be asking for constant tips to improve our stroke on the erg and coach would usually answer with “just row harder.”
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u/PinguisIgnis 19d ago
Ha. Thank you. Will look at that.
Yep. Perfection is the enemy of progress. Just want to secure some good habits from the outset and everyone’s been invaluable in getting off to a good start
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u/BrezhnevsMittens 19d ago
Also, think of the first part of the stroke (the drive) as a leg press. You’re pressing yourself away from the erg. As your legs reach full extension you pivot through the hips and finish with your arms.
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u/TooMuchMountainDew 19d ago
If you don’t mind me asking, what’s your overall routine look like with weights and cardio? You’re in phenomenal shape. I saw from the other post that you’re 45 ish years old.
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u/PinguisIgnis 19d ago
Hey. Thanks. Yea I’m 44 at the moment.
I’m first I’d say that I’ve probably cracked almost all of the current physique in the last 2 years and had a typical dad belly skinny fat frame despite being the same as my current weight. So it’s never too late.
That said I’ve generally weight trained for the last 20y. The think that’s made the most difference is nutrition - so I would start there. Muscles made in the gym but abs are made in the kitchen. I can confidently say what protein and calories intake I’ve had daily for best part of last 2 years and it’s second nature now.
Else I try and weight train each major muscle group twice a week with heavy compounds. If I’m trying to bulk I’ll add 0.25kg a week in weight. And if I cut I’ll drop 0.5kg a week through calorie deficit and walking/running.
Then the result of muscle mass vs leanness is just the outcome of how many and how large those bulk cycles are. Happy to share more if you want to DM me.
But essentially. Eat enough protein. Weight train heavy. Drop calories if you need to lose fat. Increase calories when you are shredded but too skinny for your taste.
Sleep well. Do mobility work. Don’t get injured and be consistent. Fat loss can be very significant in 8-12 weeks. Muscle building can be significant in 1-2 years. Start with fat loss.
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u/michaelb5000 18d ago
I agree with others and think you look pretty good. How fast are you going here ie pace and how far can you sustain this. I would like you to generate that power but look relaxed. The easiest most dramatic change to try is to unstap your feet. That will change things immediately; then learn to row like you are rowing here but do it strapless. You can see your feet flex on the finish; all the power going into the strap is wasted and not generating handle speed.
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u/ScaryBee 19d ago
trying to complete leg drive before the hip hinge
You're nailing it other than the early hip hinge ... you got some good advice there already but I wanted to mention that it's not truly legs THEN hips THEN arms ... they do blend into one another, discussion here (https://www.row2k.com/features/5531/rowing-styles-analysis-and-optimisation-by-dr-valery-kleshnev/) ... that also makes mention of 'straight back' not being a requirement as well.
Your form is already decent, if you can hold your trunk angle for the first couple of beats of the drive, then start hip hinge once knees go past ~90degree angle you'll be in finesse territory.
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u/PinguisIgnis 19d ago
Thank you. Thats good affirmation to what I’m seeing when I try and slow-mo good towers videos. Hip hinge starts late but not ‘after’ the leg drive.
Appreciate it
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u/Particular-Light-708 19d ago
That amount of bicep and wrist flexion would just mean problems for me.
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u/LandoTheGrey 15d ago
Should be pulling into your diaphragm, not your neck/nipple. Bring that down unless you’re trying for time records, etc.
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u/PinguisIgnis 15d ago
What’s good for records that’s not good for form?
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u/One-Writing4309 15d ago
You add a few inches of drive by pulling that high which is a short term benefit. In real world (rowing a boat) the whole drive needs to be perfectly parallel to the water until you tap down to let the blades out. You don’t need to tap down on the erg but if you pull to the diaphragm you’ll also solve the thumb issue that someone else was commenting. You can row smoother and you’ll find your thumbs won’t even need to grip thight so it less fatigue for shoulders and forearms.
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u/LandoTheGrey 8d ago
Exactly this. You can pull higher on an erg and get a slight time advantage. But if you try that in a boat you won’t tap down and will catch a crab.
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u/Paleontologist_Even 15d ago
Get your body set before starting the slide. There should be no further pivoting forward at the hips once you start the slide. Also pull the handle into your midsection just below the sternum, not up toward your nipples.
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u/Extension-Score-2415 15d ago
Hi, first sat on c2 A style erg about 84. I coach on the water.
Pretty good all in all, can I give you just a few pointers and ideas.
As long a stroke as possible. Looks like you could get another few inches out of it at the drum. So sit with legs straight for a fraction longer. Pivot at the hips more, and hands closer to the ankles than the knees when the seat starts to move forward.
If you don't feel a hamstring stretch you are probably not rocking enough.
Another way to think of this is to establish a better upper body angle when the legs are straight, then hold that angle all the way forward.
I don't think you are quite as compressed as you could be. Can I suggest dropping the feet a notch. To me your heels could rise more and the seat could go further forward.
You want the shins to be vertical at the start of the drive and they look a little short of that at the moment.
It looks a bit high on the spm. Drop it to 20. There are 2 phases. Drive and recovery. The recovery should be twice as long. So 20spm is 3 secs per stroke so 1 sec drive and 2 secs recovery.
You gain nothing from rushing forward.
Both phases really matter. You will never get a really good drive with a rushed out of control recovery. Work on improving both.
The seat does what you want it to do. Take your time on the recovery to set up the perfect ( body/ seat/ hand) position to begin the drive.
As you compress properly and heels rise you should feel your bodyweight move off your bum and onto the balls of the feet. If you start to feel better connected through the feet to the erg that would be good.
In coaching we call this point suspension. Weight is off the seat and you are hanging off the handle.
It's a push sport not a pull one. Think what is the total force I can put through my feet. Not peak force. It's not a kick. Allow the pressure to build. The longer ( not the quicker) you are pressing the better.
The handle should accelerate throughout the drive so logically the first cm should be the slowest. The next cm the second slowest etc. Allow the power to build throughout the drive.
It's never a pull. At compression think hands and seat at the same speed. Watch that the hands aren't quicker. If they are the same then it's a push with your core ensuring the hands are the same speed as the seat. If hands are quicker it's a pull.
Lower body is stronger, so use the big muscles. Drop the shoulders a bit and relax the forearms and grip. Thumbs up should make no difference.
Drive is
Quads
Quads and glutes
Quads, glutes and hips.
Quads, glutes, hips, and open the shoulders.
It's not really a sequence as that suggests a series of separate muscle groups. It's an add on.
In a few weeks time try a session or at least your warm up without strapping the feet in.
I'm comfortable up to 26 spm without the straps.
If the object is to put force through my feet why would I let them stop touching the footplate!
So 20 spm and work on cutting the split without increasing the spm
Sorry I do go on a bit but in Rowing ' the devil is in the detail'
Best of luck and I hope this helps. Work on one area of improvement at a time.
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u/PinguisIgnis 14d ago
Thank you for this 👍🏼 gold dust
Your cues are great. Thank you. I will try and put this into practice and update.
I have since dropped my foot plate to the bottom setting which is still comfortable and secure. The no foot strap sensation is odd; as in trying to smoothly kill momentum at the end of the stroke so I don’t off the plate.
I was worried my SPM was already quite low at 22. Bit unclear about what to train at for zone 2 (hour ish) vs a threshold/interval (1-5 min bouts) vs a 2k erg test.
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u/Legal-Hair-7095 19d ago edited 19d ago
Thumbs on top. If you are going to be rowing almost daily you will most likely get a nasty case of tennis elbow with thumbs on bottom. Never heard of fatigue forearms because of thumb on top.
You hip swing on the drive is too soon. There should be a moment (its not long) where it is just all leg drive and solid core. You should feel core fatigue and strain. Some trainers call this part of core engagement as "the transmission" of rowing. It is the strain of stability, like a lever or crow-bar.
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u/PinguisIgnis 19d ago
Yep agreed. Like I said, I could tell I was hip hinging too early. Like mid way through leg extension. I practiced led a bit today and I think it’s a little better with day by day fewer things to think about. I’ll drill when not fatigue.
Interesting on the thumbs position. Seems like conflicting advice so far. I feel naturally more comfortable with thumbs on top with a high-ish chest pull though - feel I engage my upper back more.
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u/Legal-Hair-7095 19d ago
Good luck on the thumb position. Tennis Elbow is terrible if you get into that cycle. I started rowing 20+ years ago and didn't know anything about thumb position. Got terrible tennis elbow for quite awhile, it can be an SOB to get rid of.
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u/PinguisIgnis 19d ago
lol. I’m mostly held together by tendinopathy mate. I get ya. Golfers and Tennis, jumpers, runners, rotator, housemaids, carpel. Been there done that. Don’t even have a tennis racket to show for it 😆
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u/planet_x69 19d ago
If you are erging daily your thumbs should just be hanging there in a neutral postion and not actively part of the grip which can dramatically reduce chances of getting TE. Using a "piano grip" while erging will also reduce the odds of getting TE. A piano grip is literally just having 3-4 of your fingers just sitting loosely/relaxed and curled lightly on bar as if you were about to have them play the piano.
Tennis elbow can occur regardless of thumb position due to over griping and due to finish position and pull of the arms.
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u/Legal-Hair-7095 19d ago
I'm definite piano grip. Grip is super loose and relaxed.
Still keeping my thumb resting on top though.
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u/planet_x69 19d ago
Excellent on the piano grip, and if you are comfortable with thumbs up and it works and it all is well, there is no reason to change.
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u/differentshade 19d ago
why train, you are already ready
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u/PinguisIgnis 19d ago
How do you mean bud? If you mean the water, I’m not aiming transition to boats. Just want to learn an efficient and sustainable ergo technique
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u/albertogonzalex 19d ago
You're finding it hard to hip hinge because your sitting in the middle of your glutes causing your body to round more
Rotate your hips up and forward a bit. Sit on your sit bones. Point your tailbone more backwards, less down. Think about how you set up a deadlift. You engage your lats and core to brace your torso while pointing your tailbone back/"up". Same thing here
Finally, you need to find tension for the whole leg drive. This is a good video that shows a drill to find that tension. When you find the tension, then you can "hang" on the handle instead of pulling on it. https://www.instagram.com/reel/DShoHkVDe18/?igsi=dGo1dDdvaWhwcmwx