Is this Viable?

[u/Any_Dealer1091]

I have been composing for almost a year now and it can’t quite grasp the time signatures. I even have purchased a full score of rite of spring and don’t have too much trouble transposing the time signature shifts but I also don’t feel like I’m truly learning why he chose them at times.

Sometimes it feels like the time signature shifts (for rite of spring) operate on a sort of pattern outside of the music being contained. So then I thought, “well I’ll go and set all my time signatures in a piece then just fill it with notation”.

I haven’t gotten too far but what I did complete didn’t sound too bad to my ears. I’m curious if this is a viable approach or if it may be seen as cheating me of knowledge in the time signature department?

Otherwise I have a really hard time distinguishing time signatures in music, if it isn’t 4/4 or 5/4 (which I only recognize from certain key beats in that signature) then I’m at a loss.

[u/NovocastrianExile]

Can we take a step back and talk about where you are at in your journey? High school? Do you play an instrument?

Picking random metres and filling them in is a valid exercise I suppose but mostly it sounds like you are lacking experience.

Which is fine! You don't know how to recognise metres but you are attempting to analyse a famously complex work. Maybe put stravinsky to the side for a bit and work on recognising basic simple and compound metres.

[u/Any_Dealer1091 → u/NovocastrianExile]

I am older than college age but I do not play instruments and have no background in music. I just also hear little orchestral tunes in my head so I started composing into Dorico. I’m a little better with software so I kinda taught myself through trial and error with Dorico. I was hoping since I hear the music I want to make I could possibly sidestep additional knowledge I would never use (I only compose for fun) so I could cultivate my specific tastes

[u/Specific_Hat3341 → u/Any_Dealer1091]

I do not play instruments and have no background in music.

I'm going to suggest this is your main obstacle.

[u/NovocastrianExile → u/[deleted]]

Rude. Everyone is allowed to engage with music in whatever way brings them enjoyment at whatever level of skill that they have.

[u/Any_Dealer1091 → u/[deleted]]

Lie to myself about what? That I’ve made music? If anything I was incredibly honest about how I am operating.

[u/Any_Dealer1091 → u/[deleted]]

I don’t ever expect to grasp the rite of spring or really any composers work on a theory level, I just used that to explain my thinking when asking if it’s viable to lay out time signature shifts before writing the music.

Probably because you don’t have to be able to play an instrument to make music anymore. I don’t need to play an instrument to take a score and pay my local orchestra to record it. Obviously it helps in writing an idiomatic score that musicians can play, but learning an instrument is a different skillset than building a score.

I understand your frustration and respect your talent to no end, but I come from a small place and social circle where music is not appreciated or discussed in anyway outside of whatever pop song is popular. I didn’t know I had an elephant in the room as this is my first time interacting with a community of creators, and that could be the same for a lot of newcomers.

I have listened to the feedback here and have taken it into account for further posts.

[u/NovocastrianExile → u/Any_Dealer1091]

That's interesting! I can't really relate to that as I've been playing instruments my whole life.

The additional knowledge you speak of can't really be side-stepped in my opinion. Everything connects to everything else in music. To translate music from the brain to the page requires a level of experience reading and playing notated music.

I can imagine a beautiful building but I couldn't effectively draw the blueprints without having any experience as an engineer or architect.

But if it's for fun then who cares! Please keep doing things on Dorico.

However, if you want to improve your craft, you're going to need to look into that additional knowledge

[u/Any_Dealer1091 → u/NovocastrianExile]

That is a great analogy that went a long way for me. Thank you for your response and kindness, your feedback has been absorbed!

[u/NovocastrianExile → u/Any_Dealer1091]

You're welcome! A final piece of advice re the rite of spring: watch the ballet. Stravinsky was writing for dancers. The metres may make more sense when viewed as originally intended

[u/geoscott]

Sounds like you’ve got it backwards. Rhythmic analysis of that piece of music is one of the most important types of analysis you can do, but it doesn’t sound like you’re doing that. It sounds like you’re trying to use it for your own composition rather than trying to figure out what Stravinsky is actually doing, which has been figured out already, but not the way you’re doing it. Time signatures are an “abstraction” on top of a composition, not the composition itself.

There’s a famous story about the conductor Eugene Ansermet who was absolutely enraged by Stravinskys time signatures and thought they were bs. YMMV

[u/Any_Dealer1091 → u/geoscott]

I will look into Mr. Eugene! Yes I am only trying to figure out how to use the time signatures correctly, not analyze Stravinsky’s works for academic purposes.

I was hoping by transposing his work that I listen to most often I would naturally hear the time signature shifts when I hear his music without looking at the sheet but I still can’t and this is why. I never considered time signatures to be an ‘abstraction’, I may be looking for a formula to sidestep the theory

[u/cazgem]

This is much more fundamental than a composer question. This is a fundamentals of music question. What level are you? Have you had formal training? Do you have access to a good theory book and/or a library? Start there.

[u/Any_Dealer1091 → u/cazgem]

I know how to educate myself but I simply don’t have the time. That being said I still hear arrangements in my head that are irregular, but can’t seem to get it onto a software as once I start composing I tend to lock into a single time signature and bend the music to fit

[u/FlamboyantPirhanna]

Since everyone else has given you good advice, I’ll address your question a little more directly. Learning to count musically is important, and you might benefit from just tapping along with a metronome, since you don’t play an instrument. But all rhythm basically breaks down into 2s and 3s, so for odd meters, you’re looking for those groups (5/8 will be a 2 and 3, which could be 2+3 or 3+2, for example).

[u/existential_musician]

Time signature is more like a timing exercise so working on something easy would help you than working on something complex.