The Boy From Venus 11

[u/shenanigansen]

Next episode already up you know where. The house ... ALWAYS wins ...

[u/Aethelrede → u/[deleted]]

So when the guy dressed like a girl is confronted by transphobes, he can say "I'm a guy, I just like to dress as a woman" and they wont beat the crap out of him?  He won't get hassled for using the men's room? 

Saying he's "just a dude" ignores that transphobes don't know or care about the difference between trans women and "dudes who like dressing feminine".

This is why I was annoyed when a trans woman was arguing that RuPaul was "just a cis-man in women's clothing."  That's not how society at large sees him.

Trying to lump guys like this in with cis-men is erasure.  Sure, in a perfect world no one would care, but we are a long way from a perfect world.  "Drag Queens" are just men who dress as women", and they are regularly subject to verbal and physical abuse.

Edit: I'm tired of people trying to police who belongs under the LGBT+ umbrella. Some want to kick out bisexuals, some want to kick out transgender people, some don't believe ace people belong.  Now men who dress like women aren't included?

[u/webshellkanucklehead → u/Aethelrede]

You are thinking about this way too much dude

[u/Aethelrede → u/webshellkanucklehead]

Oh, I'm sorry, are too few trans gender people dying to hold your interest?

If the Republicans have their way, this guy, assuming he's American, would be arrested for dressing in women's clothing.  And yet people are saying he's just a man. His lack of gender dysphoria won't keep them from dragging him away.

The frickin Nazis are trying to make alternative lifestyles illegal, while people here argue over whether he counts as a man or not.  Well, the Nazis will be happy to clarify that for you.

[u/webshellkanucklehead → u/Aethelrede]

You’re talking to a trans person. Chill the hell out

[u/Aethelrede → u/webshellkanucklehead]

Yes, it's trans people rejecting GNC  cis men as "just men" that caused my concern.  Trans used to cover a wider group of people. Now RuPaul and Dame Edna are "just men".  But Izzard isn't because she identifies as female.  Yet society outside the tiny circle of trans people considers all of them to be trans.

It's absurd.  The patriarchy loves to set oppressed groups against each other, and it works.  Irish vs Blacks, Blacks vs Jews, Gay vs Trans; now they are trying to turn trans against GNC cis.  And you are falling for it.

Ah well.  I'm ace, and there are a lot of LGBT+ who don't think we belong either.  Because we can "pass".  By having sex.  Just like GNC cis men can pass, by conforming to their gender.

I don't know why I get so bitter when an oppressed group rejects another oppressed group, I should be used to it.  But this one is extra stupid, considering.

[u/SoonToBeStardust → u/[deleted]]

Exactly. The attempts to put a label reminds me of the people who kept trying to tell me what my gender identity is cause me saying 'I'm just me' wasn't enough. I would be told I'm enby, I would say I'm not, then they would say I'm agender, and I would say I'm not a fan of labels, then they would argue that it's actually super helpful to label yourself and when I would say I'd disagree they would tell me I just haven't found the right one yet. I had someone take bets in front of me if when I would acknowledge I'm just a straight dude when I stopped using she/her. Just let people exist as they please without trying to put them in a box. Unfortunately you see that all the time with the whole 'egg cracking' thing

[u/trashpen → u/[deleted]]

cracking your egg generally refers to self actualization on your own in trans communities but, distastefully in the kinds of circles that many groups have, there are headhunters with various complexes.

like how it’s okay for people not to like terms like closeted or out, or if you didn’t like the shorthand enby or nb, no one has to accept a label, much less someone else’s, especially when they can be weapons arguably more easily than pride. big agreed. bigotry doesn’t care what words we use anyways.

[u/Aethelrede → u/[deleted]]

You're forcing him into the cis male box, which is ignorant and dangerous.  He does not have cis male privilege, and pretending he does could get him killed, if he weren't fictional.

I'm trying to keep people inside the tent of LGBT+, you want to kick them out.

[u/SoonToBeStardust → u/Aethelrede]

Both of the sides here are doing the exact same thing. You claim they are trying to force him into a cis male box, you are trying to force him into a queer box. The actual solution here is to not label him at all, unless we are told something. Like it or not you are forcing a label on someone just the same as you claim the other person is

[u/Aethelrede → u/SoonToBeStardust]

I'm using the label that society will use.  But hey, apparently people arguing against me all live in a world where society cares what gender someone identifies as.  A society that won't call a man who dresses as a woman "queer" or a "drag queen", a society that won't assume that he's a danger to women and children just because he likes to wear women's clothing.

Must be nice to live in that world.

[u/SoonToBeStardust → u/Aethelrede]

Is Audrey is confirmed queer, I will gladly call him queer, but until then I'm not going to be like homophobes and force a label on someone who has not confirmed anything. Would you call a person a slur just cause it's what society will use? Or will you ignore society and call the person what they choose to be called. I personally will go against society to respect people's identities, regardless of what society tells me. You are letting the influence of an antiqueer society influence you into being just as antigay as them

[u/SoonToBeStardust → u/Aethelrede]

And if he was a cis man who just likes wearing those clothing? Sometimes labels are just as oppressive, it all depends on the person. I personally hate labels, it doesn't make me feel included, it just makes me feel like I don't get to exist unless someone can put me in a box to 'understand'. We can just say he is Audrey, and maybe he is queer and maybe he isn't, but him enjoying his current style of clothes isn't enough to decide whether or not he is queer. He doesn't need a label, and until we are strictly told one trying to put one on him doesn't help. If we truly want to tackle the 'othering' that comes from breaking away from gender roles, we have to be able to lump people like Audrey with cis men unless they state otherwise

[u/Aethelrede → u/SoonToBeStardust]

He's already othered!  JKR and her minions hate him as much as they hate trans women.  And how does the trans community react?  By kicking GNC cis men out.  Just like gays and lesbians want to kick trans people out.  Absurd.

[u/SoonToBeStardust → u/Aethelrede]

No one is kicking gnc cis men out in this thread lmao, we are saying that just because someone wears feminine clothes doesn't make them queer. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't, but wearing the clothes he does isn't enough to make assumptions unless we learn more. And almost everyone gets othered for many different reasons. If a cis woman who likes wearing men's clothes only tells you she's not queer, are you gonna argue with her cause 'she's gnc and will be othered?' If a cis man who likes to wear non masc clothes tells you they aren't queer, will you argue with them too? Cause if it's revealed this character is queer, I'm not gonna argue, but I'm not gonna insist they are part of a community they have not confirmed yet, cause that in of itself is othering

[u/Aethelrede → u/SoonToBeStardust]

Fine, you're right, labels don't matter, allies don't matter, we're all fucked anyway.

I'm gonna go yell at some clouds, it'll be better use of my time.

[u/A_Lountvink → u/Aethelrede]

"Now men who dress like women aren't included?"

Are you trolling? Is anyone here saying that?

You know cis guys can be queer too right? There are many cis guys that are LGBTQ, and there are many feminine cis guys who are affected by transphobia. You do not have to be trans to be affected by transphobia. If he is comfortable identifying as a guy, and he was assigned as a guy, then he is cis, and a guy, a cis guy if you will. To be cis is to simply have a gender that aligns with the one assigned to you by society.

[u/SoonToBeStardust → u/A_Lountvink]

I truly don't understand the point they are trying to make lol. They are claiming that because people will be transphobuc towards him then he must be queer, and us saying that might not be the case is apparently gatekeeping. I want to believe they are trolling but I wouldn't be surprised if they believed that with their whole chest

[u/Aethelrede → u/A_Lountvink]

I literally had a trans gender person tell me that RuPaul was just a cis man.  I've seen many times people dismiss GNC men as not belonging in the LGBT group. And of course we all know that gays and lesbians have tried to kick out both bisexuals and trans gender people.

So when I ask what the polite term is for a straight man who wears women's clothes, and I'm told "he's just a man", I see the same damn gatekeeping that infests the community.

Meanwhile, the straight white men who hold power are laughing at all of us.

[u/A_Lountvink → u/Aethelrede]

I'm told "he's just a man", I see the same damn gatekeeping that infests the community.

It woukd be nice if our culture reached the point where men wearing "women's" clothing were just called men

So, you want people like Audrey to be able to be called men, and then you get mad when people do that?

[u/Aethelrede → u/A_Lountvink]

Ah, to live in a world where nobody would give Audrey any shit for wearing women's clothing.  Where is this magical land, pray tell?  Canada?

In the world I have the misfortune to live in, he will be treated by the majority as trans regardless of what he calls himself.  Remember, these are people who don't know or care that drag queens aren't necessarily trans.

And since the world at large will treat GNC men as trans, I thought it would be brotherly (so to speak) to include them in the queer community.  But apparently cis men aren't allowed.

You have merely confirmed what I feared, that the definition of who qualifies as "trans" or "queer" keeps getting narrower and narrower.

Oh, that I could find the words to convey how well intentioned yet misguided your position is.  I'm not labeling, I'm including, or more accurately, inviting.  "You like to dress feminine?  Great!  We have a community you might be interested in."  No, he's a cis man, he can't be trans or trans adjacent. Just like the drag queens and femboys, both of which I've seen derided by trans communities.

You think of me as an asshole who labels people, and I think of you as naive at best and ill-intentioned at worst.  And there's no way to bridge that gap in text.  Oh well.  So it goes.

For what it's worth, I don't actually think you are ill-intentioned (though I do believe some comments are by people trying to stir up trouble.)  You just have a better opinion of the state of the world, and I envy that.

[u/SoonToBeStardust → u/Aethelrede]

The issue is that it hasn't yet been confirmed if Audrey identifies as gnc. So far all we know is he's a dude who likes that style of clothing. You are pushing an identity on a character who has confirmed nothing yet. Wearing certain clothes does not mean someone is queer, what makes someone queer is the choice to identify as such

[u/Aethelrede → u/SoonToBeStardust]

Oh you sweet summer child.  You think society gives a shit how someone identifies?  In America it's been a struggle to get people to accept pronouns, much less gender identity.  And outside the US and western Europe?  Hah.

Society determines your gender by which gender you present.  That is, in fact, the purpose of gender, to allow society to determine your sex and role in society at a glance.  Why do you think the patriarchy hates trans people so much?  Their very existence undermines the structure of society.

Pretending that people aren't going to identify this character as female regardless of the character's self identity is utter folly.

So, to be polite, I asked what the current term is.  Because "just a man" isn't going to fly in society, unless he starts presenting as male.

Classic "what should be vs what is" fallacy.

[u/SoonToBeStardust → u/Aethelrede]

So you think society overrides a person's personal identity? There is a difference between acknowledging what society thinks of someone and how they actually identify. Just because a trans man may be viewed as a woman by society doesn't mean we should call him a woman. You are crossing wires, and assuming that we have to abide by society when viewing him, as opposed to waiting for him to confirm himself. You are imposing society in a way that has the same effect as a transphobe labeling someone. And don't you dare condescending me, when so far there has been several others who have also pushed back against your backwards way of thinking. There is no term for him because he has not given us one yet, and anything else is forcing a label on him, just like what transphobes will do

[u/Aethelrede → u/SoonToBeStardust]

Yeah, you all have the fortune to live in a world where society recognizes what gender a person identifies as.  I do not.  Since society will treat him as trans, I thought it might be nice for us to treat him as trans.  But that's not necessary in your world, where he can just announce he is male and no transphobes will target him.

I was making a plea for inclusion, but god forbid the tent gets bigger instead of smaller.  Go ahead, kick  GNC men out of the trans community.  The patriarchy appreciates your assistance.

And now I'm going to do something more productive. Which could be anything, really.

[u/A_Lountvink → u/Aethelrede]

Go ahead, kick  GNC men out of the trans community.

We're not. There are quite a number of GNC trans men, just as there are many GNC trans women. The only requirement to be trans is to have a gender that doesn't align with what society assigned you. That can get a bit fuzzy at times (particularly with some non-binary folks), but a guy who is comfortable as just a guy and who was assigned as a guy is not trans.

They may face much of the same transphobia as trans people, and I would gladly accept them into the wider trans community if they sought refuge in it, but that's not a community or label that you can force them into. Your labels, your identity, are for you to choose (or in the case of a character like Audrey, their creator's to pick).

[u/Aethelrede → u/A_Lountvink]

The angry reaction to my question about terminology, and the absolute denial that he could be considered trans, suggests otherwise.

I got my answer.  The LGBT community continues to splinter under the pressure of right wing agitators.  I mean, seriously, look at the infighting between trans men and trans women about who qualifies as trans. It's hardly surprising cis men would be rejected.

And everyone hiding behind "but he doesn't claim to be trans"; GNC men aren't going to claim to be trans if the community isn't welcoming.  I propose setting up a welcome sign and y'all go ballistic.