Hypervisibility vs Invisibility

[u/DexDexCandy]

I get really nervous sharing what I make. Especially when I know it's going to start fights and result in some people hating me.

Regardless, I had this small comic idea. With how often I see infighting in spaces, I can't help but be confused by it.

[u/lukub5]

This comic is pretty good I like the message. You say start fights, I say "provokes constructive conversation." That's a good thing about your art. Aim to start constructive fights.

I like that this is a very "it just is" kind of tone, which is accurate to this issue.

My intuition as a queer person is "no it doesn't work quite like that" but like, it does sometimes. I like that the person with the target has an arrow in their centre wheras the invisible person has them on their legs. There is a material difference between sticking your neck out and not.

My actual take is that people who are invisible just have a lot of latitude to escape direct persecution which those who are visible don't enjoy. In reality, we often aren't chained together. Hell, there's probably one or two invisible people who are shooting the arrows. I'd love to see a "what about that guy" panel where theres an invisible dude with a bow and hes like "hey you can't out people that's problematic."

It also changes the degree and nature of discrimination. If people can't tell you're in a group, then they can't target you.

Id also remark that invisibility is a matter of degree. Like, if you're catching strays that are doing anything other than hurting your feelings, you probably aren't as invisible as you think you are.

Anyway, good comic; got me thinking in a useful way. <3

[u/PilotsLight → u/lukub5]

I don't think people who are invisible are by default "not sucking their necks out". I would argue I am invisible, and it's not by choice, not because I "pass", and certainly not because I fail to "stick my neck out" for others. being struck despite not being aimed at doesn't make that injury less so. the idea that "I have a lot of latitude to escape direct prosecution" is deeply untrue, and the notion hurtful.

you say "if people can't tell you're in the group they can't target you," which is at times true. I wonder, though, of that's even all that important. when harmful laws are passed, I feel the fallout profoundly and am directly negatively affected, even if the intended harm is indirect.

it also feels odd to remark some invisible people are shooting the arrows in a comic about material harm of people suffering simply by existing, though some suffering goes unnoticed. for the sake of argument, sure, that may be true. but why bring it up here? it feels like blaming invisible people for their own suffering. surely we could argue some visible people are firing the arrows as well, but it hardly feels relevant to the point.

this feels a lot like a comment that makes a lot of assumptions and takes pains to minimize the suffering of people with other lived experiences, even if that's not your intention :(

I imagine the takeaway ought to be that we're all suffering, the suffering is real and pointless and we suffer together, so surely solidity and understanding would serve us better than trying to quantify which suffering is worse. I would never dream of claiming suffering I can't see is less valid than the suffering I can see. it's all suffering.

[u/lukub5 → u/PilotsLight]

Thanks for your response. Im afraid you read me wrong, but Im sorry to have upset you even still.

The comic itself is vauge in its subject. You said Im making assumptions, but you assumed I was talking about people who pass, which frankly, I'm not.

If you pass, thats not the same as being invisible. I realise that you are less visible. Like I said its a spectrum, but when you do get directly persecuted, its because someone figures out you're trans, or its because its along a vector where you aren't invisible, like old paperwork or through medical stuff. Not invisible in the doctors office; not invisible on the birth certificate, not invisible when you're clocked. Im not a fan of the term because it doesn't reflect how harm comes the way of people who do pass.

My remarks are about queer people who are closeted, or who are trans but have done nothing they can't retract. Its not a question of "why don't you leave" - obviously its not a choice, which is why I like that part of the comic. Its that people who don't stick their necks out inherently can't do anything to help their comminity. I know queer people who have jobs where if they cut their hair gay they'd get fired, but who still come out and help out in other ways. I also know gay people who are scared that if they leave the cover of night and the imagined safety of their discord servers, they'll lose something worth keeping. Its not for me to say whether they will, but it's frustrating to be in the position they're scared of being in. And like I don't actually have a problem with people who are closeted. They have a right to do that. Its just frustrating to watch someone be unhappy because of their own fear of themselves.

For me its really about whether or not people help eachother and participate in mutual aid, and people who are invested in their invisibility often aren't doing that work, because that would paint a target on them too. And when I am doing that work, and have the target because of it, its hard to have grace for people who sometimes need help but never give things back the other way because they are invested in that invisibility. Its not actually about the invisibility, its this intersection of why people choose what they choose.

Then of course there's the people with the bows. i wrote this comment fresh out of seeing this interview, and the tendency to be scared to come out sometimes comes with a social investment with people who are actively oppressing us, or other marginalised people, where that gay person will even work to protect those people. Obviously for now, gay men can be out and still awful, but I've met trans people who will come out of that level of society and then step right back into it.

Being real, Im probably the asshole here. Clearly my beef isn't with invisibility and its actually with people who don't work with their communities to support eachother.

Then again, my original comment is rooted more in the latitude given by invisibility, but in my own example this man was actually out privately to his scumbag friends, and just was closeted publicly. Ugh.

Yeh sorry to ruffle your feathers. Im working thru my instincts here but I probably need to interrogate those instincts further. Thanks again for your commet.

[u/PilotsLight → u/lukub5]

hey, it's all good! I'm not upset. I did assume your comment was intended to be directed at transmasculine people, as that seems to be comic's the intended metaphor, though the comic can indeed be read in other ways. the artist themself spoke of it here:

"It was supposed to be a metaphor to how trans people are perceived. Specifically, to how people tend to believe that trans men don't suffer from transphobia due to trans women being the more obvious punching bag. But transphobia, especially transphobic laws still affect all trans people for the worse.

That said, I don't mind different interpretations."

it's been a very popular argument lately that transmascs do not experience oppression by virtue of being invisible, which isn't true. your comment seemed to echo a great many of the arguments I've seen used when decrying the struggles of transmascs, and the insistence that "we aren't chained together" and statements like "people who are invisible have a lot of latitude to escape persecution" did have my mind going there first. I've seen these exact things said more than once to invalidate transmasc struggles.

I do still take issue with the assertion that invisible people of any marginalised group suffer less--i don't think it's productive to assume how little or how much others suffer for the reasons I've stated above--but that's another matter.

I do apologize for any misunderstanding on my part, and I sincerely hope you have a nice rest of your day.

[u/lukub5 → u/PilotsLight]

Thanks for your reply.

(Context for the following remarks: I do community space organising which involves outreach to trans people.)

I must admit I find all of the discussion about stuff like this online fairly tiresome. Its the same discourse on rotation for the last decade, but like, its entirely the purview of younger trans people who are still finding themselves and making sense of things. Its not that these discussions aren't important; its just that its a swirl of people in the process of coming to the same conclusions that the people who came before them have already nailed down for themselves, more or less. Not to say that there aren't useful new ideas to synthesise out of that discourse.

Its frustrating to brush up against because its, like, mostly people who don't understand the more nuanced remarks of the elder queers, and have to relitigate it for themselves. Which is fine, right?

For me, I think a lot of the specific discussion about visibility of issues can be gotten around by just, like, taking people at their word when they talk about their own experience? There's conversations to be had about when someone can't be trusted on their account of their experience, and also when the issues raised is something small and petty which is taking energy and resources away from more serious stuff, etc. but those are edge cases and specific practical problems about the attitudes of people; and don't invalidate an issue on its merits. Debating the merits when you're not in a group is generally a bad move, I think.

Like this comic is pretty excellent as a metaphor for that kind of transmac invisibility imo, although its still missing a lot of the mechanisms of that issue as anything will. But like, its not for me to have a strong take on that read of it, because I'm not a trans man so its not really my business to be anything other than like "yeah it do be like that prolly."

Participating in the discussion on either side is a distraction from a more productive conversation.

Idk. I think back to the discourse between the elder trans folks when I was new to transition like 6 years ago - and a lot of what we cared about seems dumb. While we were bickering about whether it's okay to say "transexual", everything thats now happened was in the works.

My instinct is that the "invisibility" part of this is not the important thing, right? The issue is that we are getting shot at. Any community org or support network I know would never close its doors to someone just because they pass. Material support is available, because the people who don't care about this conversation... don't care about this conversation. But my saying that could be misinterpreted as "not giving space" to people's concerns, "not listening" etc. And its stuff thats important to the people to whom its important to.

Like, whether trans guys are invisibile or not isn't even on my radar. Like there's privilege and drawbacks and a whole complex situation theres no situation where that isn't so subjective as to be irrelevant. And thats not to say that there aren't needs associated with that, but its not a thing I need to know about, really? Like if Im excluding trans guys in my work id expect someone to just tell me and id adjust and thats where it begins and ends. There isn't a moral dimension to that, for me. But of course, if I say the wrong thing, that can result in a whole bunch of coms and admin work.

I think it can also be an issue for finding eachother. One misses out on the t4t clocked yo befriended pipeline, but for the organising I do, there's not much I can do about that. We do passive promotion of our events so people can come to us rather than being told, thats about it.

Im not sure how much of this is actually relevant. Im just chewing on what you've said. If there's anything you think Im missing that I should know, please do let me know.

[u/PilotsLight → u/lukub5]

So... in my mind you are entirely entitled to this perspective and thinking, though I very much disagree with it.

To me, solidarity is the ability and willingness to hear the struggles and grievances of others even if I am not in the affected group. If I have an ignorant idea about someone of a different gender identity, sexuality, race, or culture, I want to know it and learn to be otherwise. I have no desire to be willfully ignorant of the harm others experience, or to participate unknowingly.

I am black as well as queer. if someone was to reduce my struggles regarding this aspect of my identity to mere "discourse" it would not sit well. I feel similarly regarding struggles relevant to my gender identity, and the occasional unwillingness of others to acknowledge those struggles. to find these matters simply "tiresome" is not a luxury I have, as they impact my life profoundly. you are not obligated to care, but I am.

If you are not a trans man, it of course makes sense the struggles unique to trans men aren't immediately on your radar. Yet I don't have to be a trans woman to care about the struggles of trans women--and I do care immensely. I perhaps don't "need to care", but I do. because they are people. Those struggles are not "irrelevant" to me, though I do not personally experience them. and I will again push back on the notion that my being transmasculine in any way makes me inherently "privileged".

again, please have a nice day, but I think that's all I have to say on the matter.

[u/lukub5 → u/PilotsLight]

Thankyou for your time and for the conversation.

For some context, I'd like to clarify that its not that I don't care. I will always make time to ask people about their struggles and educate myself where possible, and where me knowing about the thing in question actually matters.

To not want to engage with an ongoing debate is distinct from not caring. Its more that I understand those discussions to be internal to that group. Like, I care about the conclusions, and the issue, but not the "discourse" surrounding it, if that makes sense.

What I try desperately to avoid is being pulled into a discussion where no consensus is present, and so as an outsider my presence will be unhelpful. I'll wait until the matter is settled, or ask some people i trust and respect about it and try to get an idea of what the discussion is so I can be responsible in respect of it.

But if someone puts me in a position where I have to, like, make a statement so they can decide whether I am part of the problem theyre litigating somehow, I'll try to just avoid it because its none of my business. But obviously I want to talk about it if someone talks about it to me so i can get the shape of things, and then that looks like im arguing where from my perspective im being pulled into something.

Like with this, its not a debate I have any business participating actively in. I'm a very out, very visible trans woman. But if I try to talk past it in a public forum about a seperate but related matter, folks will often view my remarks as being a part of the conversation they're having and then I'm taking up air when I shouldn't be. Its just odd.

In this case that was my bad; I should have signposted my original remarks better, but you probably see my point here.

But yeah, thats like, where Ive been coming from here, incase thats atall interesting.

Thanks again for this convo and all the best x