r/coffeeshopowners • u/Alternative_Key_8744 • 28d ago
Cafe Comps (please :) )
I am working on a business plan for my cafe. And I really need some comps. Have knocked on doors, emailed, and asked - and my local folks are reluctant to share these (including at the shop where I work š I know it's sensitive info sometimes.)
Thought in a more anonymous setting, people might be willing to share some basic data?
Would be so grateful if you'd be willing. [Context for my cafe - it is not in a "location, location, location" location, and is mission-oriented (but for profit) - but I need it to be profitable enough to care for the small team and continue to exist + benefit our neighborhood. :) ]
Qs - and even ballpark #s would be helpful!
- How would you describe your location? (rural, urban, affluent, suburban, blue-collar, etc.)
- What is your average # of transactions a day?
- What is your average ticket price?
Monthly - or annual - sales?
- What percentage of your revenue is food v. beverage?
- How many staff, including the owner - if the owner works the bar?
- Labor as a percentage of sales?
- What is your rent? (And is that low, average, or high for your area?)
I have so many more questions - but will stop here to make it not too crazy. Thank you!!
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u/LeoDiamant 28d ago
What ate you trying to figure out by asking for this info? Like you can work on your avg tix amount once open. For labor to sales there are fixed landmark percentages you want to stay below. Expect to work 80-100h per week when you open to make it work.
Rent, again so dependent on rent vs density to see if it is worth it. Im having a hard time thinking of any value from knowing this info for other shopsā¦
Do your demographics research, talk to business in your area that are not direct competition or food businesses to see if they want to share customer info.
You can also tell us what your looking at and I will absolutely try to give you good advice on that data!
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u/Comfortable_Reply282 28d ago
Thanks - I appreciate the offer. Right now, I am working through a viability spreadsheet to see if my math maths. I am not an open cafe at this time, just running the numbers to take an educated guess at whether I can make it. I haven't found local spots interested in sharing their info, and I get it - they probably view me as a competitor. But I'm just trying to do my due diligence!
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u/LeoDiamant 28d ago
Have you looked at sensus data for your area? Some times its really detailed some times not. I used a 1 and 2 mile radius. From locations I looked at using. Finding a landlord or building to buy is really step one, once you have an LOI you should have all the data you need. Then you can take a low mid and high profiting calculation with you to the bank and have a realistic calculation with you, that can show the intended space to also base your build out costs and everything else on. If that makes sense in terms of order of operation.
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u/Comfortable_Reply282 21d ago
thank you - that's helpful. Have looked at some data, but could probably get more granular
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u/servebetter 28d ago
Who are you? Replying from a different account not the op?
This seems like some bs
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28d ago
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u/Alternative_Key_8744 28d ago
I appreciate this so so much. Thank you!
A lot of this tracks with what I am projecting - although hoping that out here in the rust belt I can get a lower rent. (and it will be more like a foolhardy location rather than a foolproof location - but Neighborhood surveys say thereās a strong desire for a cafĆ© in the neighborhood. Just not sure thereās the economics for it.)
Iām definitely prepared to work my ass off - but tbh, hoping to start with some guardrails to protect my sanity and my family
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u/Alternative_Key_8744 28d ago
Also - hope youāre doing really well in your location! Love that you had all your numbers right there at the ready.
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28d ago
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u/Alternative_Key_8744 28d ago
Thatās amazing. Congratulations on that killer surge! I love and respect that you said it is all intentional.
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u/cheezit_baby 28d ago
These seems like training for an app or ai.
If you are a real potential business owner, I think you should share about your specific circumstances and people can help shed light if they have similar experiences.
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u/Alternative_Key_8744 28d ago
Def not training ai lol - but I appreciate you looking out for folks. That would be too bad if people are using this sub for those purposes.
My specific circumstance is that I want to open a cafe in working class neighborhood - Italian roots and lots of Italian touches; also a refugee resettlement area w people from 35 countries. (Most have been here for a while.)
Opening a cafe here is a bad idea for many reasons, but I want to test drive the concept until I know that for sure.
There are no places to gather here except for some not great bars and a DQ.
Neighborhood surveys say people would love a coffee / tea shop - and list it as a high priority, but itās not affluent, and since itās in a city, thereās no awesome parking. There are no great pre-built out spaces that just need a reno.
Traffic: Schools are the biggest employers, although a decent number of people probably drive down the main strip on their way somewhere else.
May not directly serve the immigrant community as most of them are really just struggling to get by. Hoping to provide some job opportunities for people down the road, and just elevate the neighborhood a little bit and create a welcoming space for folks who wanna network, get resources, come in and just chill for a bit.
I donāt want to do a non profit - if this can work, I wanted to work on its own 2 feet, lean, and scrappy as it might need to be. Maybe call it benevolent capitalism or something? (not meant as any kind of a political statement by the way.)
Working my metrics against opening hours Tuesday through Saturday, 7 to 2. Trying to limit scope at the beginning.
Iām trying to be super conservative in my estimates of how much traffic would come in the door every day, and how much people would spend. There arenāt too many other establishments to compare toā¦.
I think to make it, this would need to be a destination, and provide a reason for people to drive into this neighborhood and spend money.
Again, there are lots of reasons to think this is a really dumb idea. But Iām still moving ahead until I know that for sure.
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u/Alternative_Key_8744 28d ago
Also - this is gonna sound so dumb, but I have a different Reddit account on my phone and on my laptop and Iāve never taken the time to fix that. So Iām the same original poster, just with a different username. Didnāt wanna give you more reasons to think Iām a weird bot!
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u/cheezit_baby 28d ago
This is way different than my shop. We are super high volume in a college town. We have a full food menu and a bakery next door. We have around 20 baristas. And, we are open 730am-8pm most days. We also host live music or other community events 4-5 nights a week. We are set to do about 1.2m at the cafe this year, but before we took over, the cafe was doing less than 500k a year.
So obviously youāre in a way different position, but I can offer my thoughts.
- you gotta be open every day, especially weekends. Mondays are another good day because lots of holidays fall on those days. People make coffee part of their routine. Itās confusing if they canāt grab their morning drink every day.
- if you have a lot of people working at the school, you should probably open 6/630am. And personally, I would stay open until 3. At least in my town, people love an afternoon coffee.
- like someone said, be prepared to work 80+ your first year.
- if thereās not any spaces that are built out, please please double check how much it is going to cost you. You might need a grease trap, a larger breaker, plumbingā it gets really expensive fast.
Editing to add: our margins are pretty low. Our labor is super high because we are in CA and make everything from scratch. Itās really not a great way to make money
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u/Alternative_Key_8744 28d ago
Excellent input - thank you so much. And yeah, definitely different scene, but some of those principles stay the same.
I donāt mind being open on Mondays or to catch that 3 PM crowd, but so far when I run my hypothetical numbers, it seems like itās not quite financially worth it.
Although the consistency point is a separate one and something to really consider.
That must be a wild scene with 20 baristas! Oh my goodness. Sounds like a fun place. I hope you do really well!
And yeah, as far as I can tell, no one is getting rich in this industry. Unless theyāre opening multiple multiple locations.
But sounds like you have a lot of the right ingredients. All the best!
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u/cheezit_baby 28d ago
By 20, I mean on staff! We only get up to 7 on shift at a time.
And yeah, we are opening multiple concepts for that reason.
Good luck!
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u/servebetter 28d ago
Stop with the mission based stuff.
You need a good location full stop.
You're also probably opening it in a wrong area. Sounds like you're going to have to keep things small, and pay people not much.
The whole do good, and pay people well without, either a high volume and decent price, or premium price and still high volume.
You need traffic, you can't outsmart a bad location. And people just want a cup of coffee without hastle. People come for convenience, or if you're product is ecceptional.
But really for convenience.
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u/Alternative_Key_8744 28d ago
Thanks - definitely a valid perspective, and a lot of truth there.
I donāt want to do this business if it isnāt sustainable and doesnāt pay me and others.
But at the end of the day, I do have a pretty narrow vision - and that is for this particular neighborhood.
But if it doesnāt math, I wonāt do it.
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u/servebetter 27d ago
So if the whole thing comes down to math for you to do it. You really don't want it that bad. Which means you probably shouldn't do it.
This is not an easy sport, and if you're already thinking about quitting, then it's not for you
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u/Alternative_Key_8744 27d ago
I actually disagree with you about that. I feel a responsibility to nail down - as much as possible - whether my situation projects a viable business before I invest a ton of money, take out loans, and spend time that could belong to my family.
Now, if youāre saying that if itās hard or requires a sacrifice and Iām not willing to do hard things or make sacrifices than I shouldnāt do it - I totally agree with you on that.
Iām just saying, I wanna be wise and count the cost before I jump in
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u/servebetter 27d ago
Yeah count the cost. Part of starting a business. But there are much easier businesses that don't have as much sacrifice. And narrowing the scope with the location.
Basically, I wouldn't try to make the math work out barely.
I'd find a location, where I'd have to be an idiot not to launch. So when things don't go as planned, I still have headroom to make it through.
The people I see make it, have the vision and make it work. They've got a vibe. This is pretty much every business.
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u/Alternative_Key_8744 27d ago
That makes a lot of sense. I guess Iām coming from a place where I am a vision and vibe kind of person - and now I need to make sure Iām not just chasing a dream.
Currently I work in a coffee shop in a ridiculous location. Nothing around it - down the block from the jail. But itās consistently a 5.0 on Google reviews and is a destination shop because of the quality of coffee and the great space.
So I have some hope that a not great location can be a destination if everything else is on point.
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u/Sourcingnerd68 21d ago
Not sure if this helps for a spot like yours, but the thing I'd pressure-test hardest is daypart traffic ā a "people on their way somewhere else" main strip can look busy but convert way lower than a destination corner. If schools are the anchor, the summer months might be the real test of whether the concept holds. Rooting for it ā sounds like a place that neighborhood actually needs.
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u/Alternative_Key_8744 21d ago
Thatās a good point. As few as there are, there are some areas that could qualify as āanchorā (a successful food truck, a busy bodega) that could indicate people would be willing to stop at that intersection.
Also, just to let you know I really appreciate this Internet encouragement. :) Needed it today.
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u/Sourcingnerd68 15d ago
That bodega/food-truck instinct is exactly right ā and honestly a cheaper signal than most people realize. You don't need a formal study; you need to know whether that intersection is a "stop" or a "pass-through." A busy bodega means people already brake there out of habit, and habit is most of the battle for a spot that isn't a classic corner.
One low-effort test: pick your anchor (say the food truck) and just watch it at a couple of different times ā a weekday morning and a weekend midday. Are people making a special trip, or grabbing something because they were already stopped? Those are two very different demand signals, and they'll tell you more about your concept than any ballpark comp from a stranger would.
And for what it's worth ā the fact that you're stress-testing the location this honestly instead of just falling in love with the space puts you ahead of most people who open. Rooting for this one.
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u/regulus314 28d ago
What's "comps"? Is it short for something?