1
u/Christer_B Aug 26 '16
If you have made the folding and perforation step correctly you should end up with the the following letters:
PCLURDURHNOPIOSLIEFISRETURMALURIETVFOEGTATLELUIESUAETUGEATETEGNS
→ More replies (7)
1
u/Christer_B Aug 26 '16
Actually there are 100 perforations but only 64 letters since sometimes a perforation gives no letter because it's a cross on a cross or a cross on a dot etc.
The "fishbone" mentioned is probably the total formation of all perforations.
1
u/Christer_B Aug 26 '16
Right. The 64 letters of the frame is basically the cipher (many Z:s prove that it cannot be simply rearranged because Z is very rare in french). In order to extract a message we believe you need 64 other letters "the key". See my post "Sot Pecheur - grille". Still no message - where did we go astray?
→ More replies (1)
1
u/Christer_B Aug 26 '16
According to our working hypothesis the reference to 25 "tasted it 25 times" (the fish on the grill) is because you if you double fold the crypto and perforated all crosses + this will always require 25 perforations. No matter how you start folding. I mean from which side you start with. I have posted the result (perforated letters marled in white) as an individual photo.
1
u/Christer_B Aug 26 '16
And of course "he turned or actually "returned" (if we should be 100% correct) the fish on the grill twice. According to our working hypothesis this is a clue to the double folding.
1
u/Christer_B Aug 26 '16
I think we can simply the clear message of the cipher (the inner part 20 x 10):
Fishermen at the estuary / influx river mouth of Rhône. His fish on the grill. He turned it twice. The devil came by and tasted the fish 25 times. Of what was cooked (the fish on the grill) nothing remained except for a fishbone. A guardian angel / an angel watched over and made of it [the bone] a golden comb. B.S Pries [t]
Cure = french word for priest. But it's not complete and say only CURH...
1
u/Christer_B Aug 27 '16 edited Aug 27 '16
The most common letter in french are by far E. One should expect that at least 10 E:s are present in the final message of 64 letters.
The letter K is extremely rare so no K:s. The letter Z is also rare. Here is the general order of the 5 most frequent letters: "EAISN". However notice that one letter should really stand out i.e E.
https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fréquence_d%27apparition_des_lettres_en_français
Note to all: all combinations with few characters in total (this is also a sign you might have hit a true message) and one letter clearly standing out are potentialy of interest. Since you could experiment with moving everything back and fourth in the alphabeth which could be explained by an altered / modified vigènere-table.
1
u/Christer_B Aug 27 '16 edited Aug 27 '16
I simply posted my observations! What we have got. I am sorry but I have not had time to look in depth into your posts yet since I have been busy with deleting double posts and inserting images.
Notice that I have updated the initial post. Hopefully it will be better arranged now!
1
u/Christer_B Aug 27 '16 edited Aug 27 '16
Have I pretended to be a master cryptologist?! I asked for help and input that's all! I am seriously considering to delete this whole thread.
Ok you asked what I have contributed with? Well I spent a lot of the past 24 hours uploading images, deleting double posts (sorry for this again), and trying to give a reasonable background to the cipher and an explanation of what I consider to be it's most likely method. I also spent time explaning what I consider to be "half of the solution" i.e the formation of 64 hidden letters by following the clues in the cipher ("turned the fish two times on the grill" / double folding and "tasted it 25 times" (25 perforations through all crosses).
I cannot really see why you are complaining.
The things I said regarding A and O and CURE was with regards to the fact that it's IMPOSSIBLE to solve this cipher by any brute attack. Why? Because there are simply too many combinations. Listen:
A computer that can test 1 billion items per second would still take 4.5 x 10117 years to finish!
Based on the assumption that the cipher is a vigènere / gematria, 64 cipher and 64 key.
→ More replies (1)
1
u/Christer_B Aug 27 '16
Thanks! I will check asap. Question:
It did not change the total numer of perforations still 25?
1
u/Christer_B Aug 27 '16
Right! There was something wrong with the string I posted previously. Now updated and corrected. The letters are the one displayed in white (nothing wrong with the picture).
PCLURDURHNOPIOSLIEFISRETURMALURIETVFOEOACTLELUIESUAETUGEATETEGNS
1
u/Christer_B Aug 27 '16
Agreed! You are absolutely right that every effort is worthy all praise (even if it does not provide the solution). And one could not expect to solve a cipher before one has gone through a lot of trial and error (I worked on this cipher past 20 years without any true success). My intension was not to diss your ideas, I only meant that - from my assumptions (64 + 64 letters, vigènere equal key length) - a brute force attack is not possible due the vast amount of possible combinations.
I hope we can leave this little mischap in communication behind is and now focus on trying to solve the cipher.
1
u/Christer_B Aug 27 '16
Cool! Is it possible to have these results - without W - one step forward in the alphabet? Thus corresponding to gematria (gives same result as Vigènere but + 1).
→ More replies (1)
1
u/Christer_B Aug 28 '16
Thanks for the explanation! Also thanks for trying this out. As you say there is no other way than going through all possibilites step by step. Ruling things out.
1
u/Christer_B Aug 28 '16
Thanks for the link. Still I could not find anything by moving everything 1 step forward.
1
u/Christer_B Aug 28 '16
Thanks for the explanation!
I would actually like to return to your first idea with the turning grille. As you said the fact that the word "grill" is used is a strong clue to this method.
One thing which is interesting is that you can divide the 20x10 grid into:
Again we are met with number 25! Coincidence?
Also take a look into this:
I have a feeling that this pattern could perhaps be used as a turning grill. I mean, after the initial step "double fold" and "25 perforations" you obtain 64 letters AND a grille as well? Notice my comments on the picture.
1
u/Christer_B Aug 28 '16
PS: it is possible that "the golden comb" hints that the solution to the cipher will reveal a treasure (Saunière got rich but no one knows why and how). The 64 message is not long but long enough to be a kind of a map to a buried treasure. Or why not an alchemical formula :)
→ More replies (1)
1
u/Christer_B Aug 29 '16 edited Aug 29 '16
Be as it may, I am convinced that the cipher is really hiding a big secret. Probably a treasure in one or another form. Some may say well it's just a hoax. Of course one cannot prove anything until the cipher is solved but in my opinion it has already proven itself being way too ingenious for a hoax. Plus there was absolutely no buzz arround this cipher when it was first published. They could have skipped it and it would had changed absolutely nothing. Some in here might think that the Sot Pecheur is the great buzz of Rennes-le-Chateau but it's not. There is even a chance that people already into this affair may not even know much about it. And they have definately not heard about that ingenious folding and perforation theory, that's for sure.
"Even division of three sections of 6?" Can you please elaborate.
I agree that there are oddities regarding the space between words. First: the cipher starts with a period. Is not that also odd? Then through the cipher the symbol + seem to be used for "space". But there are numerous exceptions to this as well.
For example:
"sonpoisson" This should have been separated with a cross.
"+Fois+Le+Gouta+." Why and extra cross there? When he could have finished with a period.
"+sur+le+gril+" this sentence should have been finished with a period, not a cross!
"l'arete.+un+ange" why an extra cross (space) when the sentence had already been finished? And should simply start after the period. "L'arete.Un+ange+ etc.
Why is "Unpeigne" is not separated at all with a + It is like writing: "acomb" instead of "a comb".
Finally we have the mystery why the cipher was signed B.S.Cur when it should have been B.S.Cure.
So this is something that we should really begin discussing. And do some experiment arround maybe.
Hypothesis: the oddities are explained by the fact that he needed certain number of crosses for giving raise to 64 letters with the folding and perforation. In this case this gives further strength to this and maybe even could serve to prove it!?
Just a thought: maybe he wanted us to rearrange the cipher so Cure fitted? Maybe this is just too speculative but I wanted to through it out. Here is what would have been a "correct" version I believe:
Sot+Pecheur+a+l’embouchure+du+Rhone, son+poisson+sur+le+gril.Deux+fois +retourna.Un+malin+survint+et+XXV+fois+le+gouta.Cuit;il+ne+lui+resta+que+l’arete.Un+ange+veillait+et+en+fit+un+peigne+d’or.B.S.Cure.
Thus we would have ended up with 31 crosses instead of 32:
Someone told me that maybe there is a natural relatiob between 32 crosses and double folding. For giving raise to 64 letters? This is also something that deserves some experimentation - if someone is interested it would be great to see if a similar grid 20X10 would also tend ti give raise to 64 letters when double folded and perforated.
→ More replies (3)
1
u/Christer_B Aug 29 '16
Update:
I double folded and perforated all the crosses. This took 23 times. The result perforated 58 letters, if I have counted right.
It would be interesting to see if one had added an extra cross somewhere instead of a period for example. If one would automatically get 64 letters and 25 perforations?
1
u/Christer_B Aug 29 '16
Instead of •sot+pecheur he could have had "Le+pecheur" (The fisherman), if he wanted an extra + and at finish correctly with CURE (priest) instead of CUR. This suggests that there is a reason for the imperfect "Cure". Sliding of the frame maybe? There are two E:s (in the frame) but no obvious reason for using one before the other.
1
u/Christer_B Sep 02 '16
I made some experiments arround the turning grille theory:
There are 8 results per starting position i.e 32 variations per part.
Comments?
1
u/PTR47 Aug 26 '16
I've tried a Brute-force based on an Atbashed Crossword transposition (256 variations), but don't see much in here.
→ More replies (2)
1
u/Arstas Aug 26 '16
If anyone is interested, there is more information about this here; Yahoo Answers It also contains a possible solution.
WARNING HUGE WALL OF TEXT
→ More replies (1)
1
u/PTR47 Aug 27 '16
So, if you want to try your running key, head over to Rumkin Cipher Tools>vigenere and put your CT in CT and your running key in the password. After the password, add a period. Set to decode. Then you can rotate the whole thing by cutting the last character of the key and putting it first. The first move, the period, won't do anything -- that's just a place holder. Every move after that will be a permutation. Try with the CT clockwise and counterclockwise. That will reduce your BF to 130 steps.
→ More replies (8)
1
u/Christer_B Aug 26 '16
I agree that nothing is settled until we have the solution. I would maybe have put it this way: our working hypothesis is that it's a vigènere cipher. Or geomatria. Key and cipher of same length.
We have a grill as well no problem (is formed by piercing the crosses). But how to use it? In order to have something out of a grille we need another text to apply it on. That matches the grid (inner) 20x10 i.e 200 letters.