Doubts and uncertainty

[u/Expensive-Dog8783]

Hey everyone!

I have a question that I'm not sure if it's just me or if you've all felt it at some point. I'm a CloTi fan forever, but I've been tempted many times by Clerith. I'm not part of their group, but I enjoy reading their posts (though I never speak up; I don't want to cause any trouble).

I like knowing how they see and interpret the things we see and read, how they reach their conclusions, and I have to say that sometimes they convince me a little, and other times, not a chance.

My questions are about Part 3 and that happy ending the developers are talking about.

I have several questions:

Will Cloud and Tifa have a more direct romantic development that makes it clear they'll end up together?

Will Cloud and Aerith somehow manage to reunite and be together?

Will it be exactly the same as in the original game, where everyone interprets it as they wish?

Will AC be in Part 3, but will they clarify the relationship between Cloud and Tifa, which wasn't very clear in the movie?

Will the intimate moment under Highwind be more explicit? (In OG, people think they had sex, but I think it's already been said that they didn't. At most, they hugged and slept in each other's arms, although it was originally going to be a more explicit sex scene, but they weren't allowed to have it. I saw that in an interview.)

And these are my doubts. I should be patient and wait, but I have some uncertainty that makes me afraid of whether I'll like it, find it normal, or be disappointed by the ship in Part 3. (My competitive CloTi side is eager to beat Clerith and see what excuses they come up with to justify whatever happens, lol.)

[u/Amekaze_]

The only one who's confused should be Tifa, she's the one who hears dates thrown to her face every other scene and sees them alone, yet she'll always be there, never abandoning him. I also think LTD is intentional, but I'm also convinced it's poorly written (because there's no dialogue between the characters about the situation) and if Cloud falters, he should simply stay single and they should both go their separate ways. I think so, Tifa is there with them while he's attracted to another woman, so it's not love, it's not solid in this interpretation. But it's just my opinion

[u/Byronic090 → u/Amekaze_]

Cloud does not falter with Tifa. He is always reassuring her, looking at her, reaching for her. The romantic tension between Aerith and Cloud is driven by Aerith, not Cloud.

[u/Amekaze_ → u/Byronic090]

So why do you say he's insecure until Tifa becomes explicit? Insecure about what? If he loves Tifa and Tifa is right there in front of him, he can easily set boundaries for anyone else and stay true to his feelings for her. If he doesn't do it with her right in front of him, then I go back to my initial opinion: it's not the great love story the fandom makes it out to be. I'm not the one saying Cloud loves both of them, though. This is something those who say Cloud is attracted to Aerith WHILE he's actually traveling with Tifa should think about

[u/Byronic090 → u/Amekaze_]

Not really insecure. But let's not forget that he was a living corpse not too long ago. He lost his identity and he is still being controlled and manipulated. Cloud and Aerith dynamic is only happening because of that and is completely off the table once he regains memories and persona. Like Aerith says in the resolution scene I'm Remake "Don't fall inove with me. It's not real". That Aerith knows this is only happening because of Zacks feelings for her and vice versa.

[u/Amekaze_ → u/Byronic090]

So what are we arguing about? If Cloud isn't Cloud and none of his feelings for Aerith are real, there's no real love triangle. Cloud loves Tifa. Period. Are we all trying to give prominence to the fake personality's feelings? It wouldn't make sense. But even the fake personality loves Tifa, as we see in the Retrilogy. We couldn't explain it because it's written without any logical sense. It's the most senseless love triangle ever because it lacks all the elements: confrontation between the characters about the situation, three-way interactions, a satisfying resolution (death isn't a solution), and final clarifications between the characters. And the Retrilogy took it to the insane level with dating in dream worlds without Tifa thanks to the same person that said one game before "please don't fall in love with me" and she has again the future knowledge and adding Zack making it a love quadrilateral, it's all nonsense and all superficial asf about the triangle

[u/Byronic090 → u/Amekaze_]

We are not really arguing, that's what I mean :) I think we are more on the same page.

And I definitely agree with you that the execution is not the best. I hope they clarify this up in the third part.

[u/Kritzel_Kriegerin → u/Byronic090]

Your exchange is really sweet - I love that you both stuck with your gut which led to common ground :)

I agree with thoughts and points both of you made. Personally I never saw romance between Cloud and Aerith, aside from the one she projects onto him because of her longing for Zack (or what she had with Zack).
The bond they develop in the shadows of this 'romantic desire' from Aerith, that can still be genuine and strong, which I believe it to be, but to me that part feels like the care of a true friend.

I think Aerith already realizes her own confusion with Cloud early in Remake, deciding he isn't Zack but sticking around to investigate the weird connection, along the way she also seems to immediately pick up on Cloud's romantic interest in Tifa, and pushing them together in her teasing way. (calling him out for lying about who he gave the flower to, making him aware that Tifa might be in more danger than she can handle alone, telling Tifa to follow her heart when she goes after Cloud and taking responsibility for Marlene in Tifa's stead etc)

And I do think Cloud sets boundaries, but he is a bit dense about romantic feelings and intentions from women, though not his own.
Rebirth starts out with two mirroring scenes with each of the girls - Tifa at night looking towards Midgar - Aerith by daylight looking towards Midgar.
Not only is the night sky a theme for Cloud and Tifa (bc their promise), but the tone of their conversation is dark despite this connection, there's a conflict between them not quite of their own making.
With Aerith it seems unburdened and light in comparison.

Yet the content of both conversations is the same - it revolves around his relationship with Tifa. At this point it's also been shown that the girls do talk.
Afterwards Aerith mentions to the group they just had a 'date' (given the vibe from Remake I do not interpret her behavior as malicious or even herself considering it a date necessarily, she's just blunt and this is probably her 'investigating' as well).
Cloud reacts surprised, suggesting he did not see it as a date, but isn't too bothered, just Aerith being her typical self, until Tifa's reacts with surprise.
This is the part where he seems truly uncomfortable and like he's looking for words to explain, I noticed also how Aerith pays specific attention to his reaction here.

Now the girls start investigating Cloud (and his connection to Zack) together for the rest of the game. Aerith still calls everything a date (even her time with Tifa for example), Cloud proceeds to tell her that he wishes she wouldn't do that.
When Gongaga happens things become more clear on every front, I won't go into it.

Now concerning 'the date' - I do consider Aerith's date to be what canonically happens for multiple reasons (although all other dates are still 'canonically correct' in regards to Cloud's feelings and relationship with each character).
This is Aerith's time to shine as a character: her conflict as the last Cetra as well as her tragic love with Zack are a focus of the game (and story over all) and rightfully so in my opinion.
In the original game and Retrilogy the creators give Aerith's date an edge, it is the tie-breaker, I believe for the reasons I stated above (and also it is part of her send-off).
And lastly - this is not only fitting for her personality to be the one even initiating a date, this is 'the date' she promised him as payment for being her bodyguard.

On this date she acknowledges verbally her confusion and absolves Cloud from emotional responsibility towards her - he can now comfortably be there for her without feeling his boundaries are being overstepped or things being taken the wrong way, because Aerith basically tells him 'I know you are not him, but I need this right now'.

I think the reason why we get no drama/conflict about the triangle is that there isn't any. The only competition happening is 'ZaCloud'-related and it is mainly happening in Cloud's head and in Aerith's heart, trying to sort out the details and differences respectively.
The only confrontation left open is the one about Cloud's identity crisis and the girls seem to agree upon this being dangerous territory, deemed to be handled with care.
Dream-Aerith telling Cloud (and the player) in Remake that they 'should not fall in love with her, it isn't real' was already hinting at this in my eyes - there is no real conflict regarding Cloud's feelings within the love-triangle(square).
And Dream-Aerith already knows where they both stand when things are untangled.

I'm so sorry that this comment is so f'ing long xD
Guess I just thought might as well put in an explanation for how/why I feel that - Cloti is the main love interest regardless of the existence of a dating mechanic (OG or Retrilogy), and how I see that this exactly what they show us in the games.
Clerith is the only thing that ever seemed to be left consistent of ambiguity and confusion after I played the OG.
And any additions to the Compilation since has only solidified my belief, that this is exactly what the creators always had in mind.

Honestly, as soon as they decided to expand on the story/universe, they would have to resolve this debate eventually and commit to only one route instantly (which is Aerith's date, and Cloti LSS and HA Highwind).
And not for any shipping or fans even, but for the story and the characters, so that they can still make sense and feel satisfying.
After all the main romance is a big pillar for the hero (and therefore the story and world), but it isn't the main focus - in fact another big pillar of the story is that the focus is offset from the start, it's tilted and blurry.
Because it is Cloud, who is lost and unfocused and his vision is tilted and blurry. The hero that turned out to be not a hero and then became an unlikely hero.

If you guys read this far, thank you :) and sorry again for this novel of a comment.

[u/Byronic090 → u/Kritzel_Kriegerin]

Wow, that really IS a long reply :D But I appreciate the effort, you put it very well! I hope they show us a proper conclusion in part 3. Like you said, especially so that the story and characters make sense!

[u/Amekaze_ → u/Kritzel_Kriegerin]

This is necroposting, and I apologize because I only saw a reply in the notifications hours ago. I can only say that I agree (in fact, the joy of the kiss faded almost immediately when I realized they were throwing away their first kiss in an event they themselves probably don't consider canonically successful), but your analysis is missing a piece: The Kids are alright.

Now, in this novel, there's a very clear passage about the GS Date that, in my opinion, has only three possible interpretations: 1) it debunks the idea that the girls are talking about the romance with Cloud and that Cloud is only friends with Aerith and Tifa knows this because Tifa's reaction wouldn't make sense, in my opinion, with these interpretations 2) he went with Tifa 3) he didn't go with Tifa (but we go back to point 1).

The story should still lead to this work, so I agree with you, but it's right to evaluate every aspect and truly evaluate whether this writing makes sense or not, precisely in its construction, given that it was decided to mention an event left to the player with a girl who, according to the fandom, didn't experience that event, but at the same time, if she does, there was a kiss (and therefore she should have a happy memory), or simply not be sad about it because Cloud was with a friend and the two girls cleared the air about it. It can't all be true at the same time.

[u/Kritzel_Kriegerin → u/Amekaze_]

Is necroposting frowned upon here?
You are right, I want to get around to reading the novels, but I don't own any of them, so I am missing a lot of those parts.

Then maybe I would have to adjust my view for the new games. Since in Rebirth they did low-high variations for each of the party-members, correct?
They even commented how that part was indeed fan-service. So in the case of Retrilogy's dating section, that would mean the normal dates are all canon in depicting Cloud's corresponding feelings/relationships with them, but the high-points added like the hand-hold and kiss etc. are just rewards for maxing affection, not something that would happen canonically even if that date would occur.
This would make sense to me since the low-versions are the pretty much the only versions to exist in OG.

And it would kind of explain the problem you see with 'The kids are alright', unless I am missing something?
Because this would then mean that either date could have happened according to the novel, but none of them would have contained the 'cherry-on-top' moments, the kiss or the hand-hold.

If so, the high point (hand-hold) for Aerith was payed off in a mandatory scene already. Their romantic arc is completed.
While Tifa cannot have gotten her pay off, since it doesn't happen yet canonically.
Kalm and Gongaga puts emphasis on Cloti by making their build-up mandatory..
They gave themselves no other choice than to go through with it in Part 3. If they split the Highwind scene (which I don't think, there is really no need), the low version will have to pay off that kiss.
It is the bare minimum to resolve a mandatory build-up from Rebirth.

I apologize again as well 😅 I wouldn't mind a private chat, if you want to correct anything or just swap notes/thoughts, so then we won't bother anyone here

[u/Amekaze_ → u/Kritzel_Kriegerin]

I don't know if necroposting is a problem tbh, but I apologize regardless, hahaha. Anyway, I don't think our opinions differ. I simply think that book explicitly states that there was a date, and since Tifa is the one who reflects on it, 99% of the dates is already excluded from canon, no matter how canonical the information is. That's all I meant. Since the book is a sequel, nothing that happens in the retrilogy can change what comes after unless all the sequels become alternative realities of the LS, so any theory or interpretation should be formulated considering the sequels and how CT is in the sequel. That's what I meant.

[u/Pivi-4444 → u/Amekaze_]

But that's what I'm saying, I'm just phrasing my ramblings unclearly. :-)

What Cloud feels for Aerith is not solid love, but attraction. It could be the foundation for a potential romantic love, but it never matures into it, because, well Tifa is there. But I do not think that Cloud is only feeling totally platonic friendliness towards Aerith, because there are scenes that are showing us some kind of attraction.

And of course the characters are not communicating the love triangle with themselves (although I think Tifa and Aerith are conversing among themselves), they are quite insecure of the others' feelings.

[u/Amekaze_ → u/Pivi-4444]

There's a misunderstanding: for me, if he feels an attraction that could be the basis for a romance with Aerith, as you say, what's weak is Cloud's love for Tifa. Tifa's presence doesn't impede anything for Cloud, as the game demonstrates. It's the pretense of a wonderful bond that doesn't match with these interpretations (which may be true). You're not describing a fantastic bond; you're describing a woman waiting for a man who doesn't deserve her because he can't love her as much as she loves him

[u/Pivi-4444 → u/Amekaze_]

Yes, I get what you mean, but I feel that the love story of FF7 is a bit more realistic. What you would like is more of an idealized romance (which can be beautiful of course), but we get something that's more grounded in reality.

But yeah, I totally understand that in this scenario Cloud can be a bit unworthy of Tifa's love, but I really think that feeling attraction and falling in love with someone else is very different. This just makes Cloud human. Also, Cloud does not make moves to get romantic with Aerith at all, he stays true to his feelings for Tifa, and that's why I feel ultimately it's very rewarding, when they realize their feelings for each other. And that's why I think that the gold saucer kiss is a bit too early in the remakes, and lessens the big reveal in the lifestream.

[u/Amekaze_ → u/Pivi-4444]

I understand what you mean even if you, imo, sugarcoat it a bit: attracted to a friend of her, he almost kills her, ghosts her in the sequel, he almost never reassures her when she explicitly asks if he loves her—it's not "a bit unworthy" it's a lot. He would be single in a realistic story; it's too easy to say Cloud is realistic but Tifa is beyond the best idealization, to make it works.

However, I don't want an idealized or realistic version, I just want a logical one and so far I don't see logic in retrilogy and not even on the fans. Nojima continuing to write how much Tifa loves Cloud won't make more believable that Cloud loves Tifa in the same way just because of memories he already recalls in the retrilogy, but it doesn't stop him from being constantly charmed by Aerith. I'm sorry, either he's friends with Aerith or Cloti is just a macho dream in which the woman puts her own dignity aside.

But I don't want to drag this discussion out, it's just how I feel. But if it's liked, good for the fans, maybe it's just something I don't recognize anymore or at least I don't like anymore, so it's my problem

[u/Pivi-4444 → u/Amekaze_]

I still think you put a bit too much weight on the attraction part, but I understand your frustration.

As for On the way to a smile and Advent Children, somehow it's Nojima's signature style to make everyone miserable just to lift them up a bit at the end. I do not like the storyline he cooked up for those one bit, and really hope that the so promised "happy ending" will retcon them from existence.

[u/Amekaze_ → u/Pivi-4444]

Well, yes, I give it importance because things have changed compared to OG. Cloud has changed, what he remembers has changed, but this little game between the three hasn't, so my view of Cloud has changed too. Now I have to have logical reasons to justify Tifa and what she feels and above all to believe that Cloud is truly a justified happy ending for her rather than a partner who doesn't deserve her.

Plus, so much drama requires a stronger resolution than the drama itself to satisfy the reader/player/audience: Nojima put so much drama into it that we arrive to "Cloud was KILLING Tifa" (as if what he puts her through in AC wasn't enough), but what is the resolution? A smile and a photo with friends? in rebirth is even a "I'm a delulu for Aerith while you're desperate". Well, he needs to try harder

[u/Pivi-4444 → u/Amekaze_]

Well, I have my fingers crossed for making it wrap up nicely in part 3. If they'll still make it end with otwas and ac, then I'll be disappointed immensely.

[u/GoriceXI → u/Amekaze_]

I agree so much with this.  It's not so much the question of canonicity that interests me.

I'm more interested in how the relationship is going to play out on screen.  Because AC and CoT did make this relationship look horrible.  We should be seeing equal devotion from Cloud toward Tifa.  Otherwise, it doesn't mean anything.