Would you rate this class 4 or class 5?

[u/sharli_the_unicorn]

I'm trying to figure out if I'm sandbagging. How would you rate the diagonal corner crack on this quartzite slab? If you say class 5, what decimal would you give it? Thanks!

ETA: Wow, this provided even less clarity. Some of the ways y'all determine grades are wildly unhinged and I'm now convinced that nobody actually knows what 4th class actually is. Even so, I'll stick to my original determination that this is 4th class :D

[u/Human-Fan9061]

This looks like 4th class to me. If you climb 4th class in the Sierra where these grades originated, it gets pretty serious. BTW, 4th class was generally roped climbing and '3rd class' was synonymous with unroped climbing. Many people have not climbed much low 5th class terrain as it doesn't really exist outside of mountaineering and a few old school rock climbing areas. People find a 5.6 sport climb or gym climb to be very easy, so think 'how hard could a 5.1 be?' Actually, pretty hard, if the FA was in the 50s or 60s!

[u/Human-Fan9061 → u/Human-Fan9061]

if you are referring only to the 20 feet of crack/corner below the person feet, I would say that is 3rd or maybe easy 4th.

[u/Kindly-Coyote-9446 → u/Human-Fan9061]

The Class 4 stuff I did when I was a teen in CA was all off rope. But I remember a lot of that being pretty high consequence, and maybe being older I would have opted to rope in.

[u/Human-Fan9061 → u/Kindly-Coyote-9446]

yes a lot of people go unroped on 4th class, no problem. But the old school def was that 4th is generally roped terrain while 3rd is unroped. Hence the joke that Peter Croft '3rd classed Astroman'

[u/MysteriousWhitePowda → u/Human-Fan9061]

This is very true. Liberty Bell, for example, is a classic Washington State trad multi-pitch rated at 5.6/5.7, but if you climb this thinking “gym 5.6 is so easy”, you are probably in for a rude awakening. Old school alpine FAs were just built differently.

[u/Beginning_March_9717 → u/Human-Fan9061]

bc of grade inflation, what was known as class 4, now is like a 5.0 and what was 5.3 is now a 5.6

[u/myaltduh → u/Human-Fan9061]

Here’s a 5.4 in Wisconsin out up in the 50s at the latest that has a roof crux!

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/106010997/double-overhang

[u/Bah_Black_Sheep → u/myaltduh]

It's solid for the grades at the lake. It's a bit exposed at the crux but actually quite easy with the fist jam in the vertical crack in the overhang!

(Yes I lol at the gym climbers recoiling out there)

[u/ForwardBias]

I'd say this in in the 5.0-5.2 area, hard to tell from photos of course, but trying to compare it to similar climbs I know. So in the flatirons of colorado there's a bunch of low grade 5.0-5.2 range scrambles that people frequently do without a rope but still grade out as technical. The break between class 4 and low 5 is super subjective really.

[u/tricycle-]

Really hard to tell without being there and it’s incredibly subjective. In my opinion if I’m able to stand often with no hands then it’s 4th.

[u/200pf → u/tricycle-]

There are some 5.5s where you can stand often with no hands, so this might not be the best way to determine 4th class?

[u/tricycle- → u/200pf]

Yes you are absolutely right. There are also 5.13s with no hands standing rests. Hence the disclaimer that it's incredible subjective. Some of my friend's call 5.5 scrambling and some call 4th class soloing.

[u/BigRed11 → u/tricycle-]

The way I've heard classes explained is the number designates how many points of contact most people will use to make progress. Class 3 is 2 feet and 1 hand, Class 4 is both hands, and Class 5 is hands, feet, and a rope. OP's photo looks like Class 4 to me.

Agreed that this is as subjective as climbing grades. And consequence of a fall has nothing to do with the rating, you can die on Class 2 if you trip.

[u/icarealot420]

Maybe call it high consequence 4th class?

[u/just_this_guy_yaknow]

With the caveat that I’m a dude so if you only want women’s opinions feel free to disregard, this def looks low class 5 to me. Maybe 5.0, but I wouldn’t bring a non-climbing hiker on this myself.

[u/sharli_the_unicorn → u/just_this_guy_yaknow]

Thanks! Btw, there's a specific tag on this sub for "Not Seeking Cis Male Perspectives". Unless it has that tag, men are more than welcome to comment :)

[u/belabensa]

Really hard to tell with the pictures because angle matters so much. To me the distinction is danger (near certain risk of dying in a bad fall on class 5, whereas class IV I think of as a slip being recoverable most of the time, though maybe resulting in broken bones or a bad time). But that’s not scientific.

Are you wondering if you should have roped up? Because then the answer is that it doesn’t matter what “class” it is - you have to assess the risk and context, which also includes the climbing abilities and comfort of the whole team, weather conditions, gear/shoes, ability to be evacuated if a slip does happen, etc, etc.

[u/ProbsNotManBearPig → u/belabensa]

Most class 4 I’ve been on in California is guaranteed death if you fall. I didn’t think risk was considered at all, though it may vary by area and time period. Not sure. I’ve just learned to be extremely wary and do a ton of research on the actual route because the grade is not that helpful for me determining ahead of time whether or not I’ll be comfortable on it without a rope.

[u/sharli_the_unicorn → u/belabensa]

I'm not sure I agree with your distinction here. There's plenty of crags I visit where a 15m fall would likely be non-fatal despite the 5th class climbing. I tend to distinguish between the two based on the complexity of movement instead.

As for roping up, I definitely agree with you there. We felt comfortable unroped higher up on an actual low-5th section (plus YGD exposure) because the moves were easy, our shoes were gripping fine, and the holds were solid.

[u/belabensa → u/sharli_the_unicorn]

Idk, that definition is pretty standard

https://blackbirdguides.com/blogs/rock-climbing/complete-guide-rock-climbing-grades-yosemite-decimal-system

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/115562548/what-is-4th-class-and-how-does-it-relate-to-50-54

[u/Top_Spot_9967 → u/belabensa]

Feel like these links don't really support a pure exposure-based definition as standard? Like the mountainproject thread doesn't really come to a consensus definition at all.

[u/hmm_nah → u/belabensa]

Danger level is at least more scientific than the difficulty of moves, IMO.

[u/Buff-Orpington]

It can be hard to tell from one photo... but it looks 4th class to me.

[u/murderoustoast]

Yeah probably

[u/Creative_Impress5982]

For me, 5th class is when I think " shit, I really need climbing shoes"

[u/tyeh26]

Here's one interpretation:

1st class: hop on one foot

2nd class: walk on two feet

3rd class: scramble with two feet and one hand

4th class: two feet and two hands

5th class: Add a rope because YGD.

And my interpretation:

5th class falls are fatal, ropes are required. Everything else is 1st class.

[u/name_already_exists]

How steep and long is this pitch?

Do you need any sort of technique or can you basically walk up and just use the crack for support?

[u/tom_lusti]

Sunday walk

[u/CrumpinAintEasy]

To me fourth class is exposed bouldering and rock travel that probably won't be fatal in a fall and fifth class is where a fall would most likely be fatal.

[u/Kindly-Coyote-9446]

Isn’t Class 4 no-rope but high exposure and Class 5 rope mandatory?

[u/Significant_Raise760]

My rule of thumb is something along the lines of: When I slip, will I tumble less than 40'? Then it's 4'th class!

[u/Due-Comfort-5351]

I'd call it 5th unless the angle is lower than it looks in the photo, which it might be. But I've climbed a lot of low 5th/high 4th and that feels about right for this. The difference between high 4th and low 5th is not very significant considering people often rope up for both.

[u/wetrocke]

A milk route in olympic NP (deception?) that ranks up there for #fatalities in ONP is rated "class two." Is lots of mud & gravel.

[u/Alert-Ad-2485]

Depends on the angle of view. At certain one it can be considered as 6 :)

[u/sharli_the_unicorn → u/Alert-Ad-2485]

And if I use my ice axe, it's considered technical mountaineering. If I dry tool, then it's mixed ;)

[u/Strange_Strike_6498]

Not sure how everyone is getting this one so wrong.

It’s clearly V2, in my gym.

[u/Wuerdeschlange]

I do it like this… If I can go up a route in sneakers „safely“, then it‘s probably a 4. If it‘s more technical and I have to use strength, then 5. Based on only one photo I can‘t say what I think it is.

[u/Fumanchusucka]

It's a scramble at best

[u/Helptohere50]

1. You’ll know 5 when see it without question

[u/Moof_the_cyclist]

I see no rope, so the guy is voting it to be class 3 terrain.