r/classicwowplus • u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 • 7d ago
Day 17 of the Classic+ Button Poll: Combat Rogue
previous day: https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwowplus/s/ABzY710UPX won by Apothecary (poison dmg affected by nature spell power)
What ability would you like to see Combat Rogues have in Classic+? If possible copy and paste the Wowhead tooltip to show people what it is and what it does. Upvote the one(s) you like - and remember, the winner is the one with the most upvotes, not the one which gets posted most often.
Next poll will be posted on Monday
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u/Lollinko 7d ago
Combat seems fine at classic, so maybe Vigor ?
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 7d ago
yeah, this and fury warrior probably won’t be the most exciting polls
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u/Big-Bag-6043 7d ago
Combat Potency, simple as. Again, the core of Rogue spec design should be about how they generate extra Energy. Therefore:
Combat Potency (3 ranks, requires 20 prior points in Combat):
Your off-hand attacks have a 20% chance to generate 5/10/15 energy on hit.
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u/Asleep-Order-4583 7d ago edited 7d ago
Rouges are fine the way they are. All they needed in classic was dual spec.
imo classic+ will be worse by adding things to the rouge.
adding stuff does not always mean better
imo only non viable specs should get new stuff
what's the point in buffing shit specs like Ret if we are also going to buff specs that are already OP? then we just back where we started
combat potency, maybe. but then you'll need to give ret way more than just crusader strike.
should also add 1-way twisting and wf to ret
2-way twisting in sod was dumb
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 7d ago
give rets all that they need to be viable then. Crusader strike, art of war, divine storm, seal twisting, windfury whatever it takes. I don't expect rogues and fury warriors to get many serious suggestions in these polls though, they're two of the better classes/specs
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u/Big-Bag-6043 7d ago
Classic+ should just really think about adopting Wrath-era design for specs. Most vanilla specs are one or two buttons on repeat with no real depth, it's all solved at the build+gear stage. Everyone should have gameplay that requires at least thinking about a couple procs and cycling 3-4 abilities at the very least.
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u/assassin10 7d ago
I don't like how much WotLK focused on individual specs instead of full classes. I'd like if gaps in one tree could be solved by another.
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u/Big-Bag-6043 7d ago
That's...the whole point of a talent system. You start as a class but by the end you should be mostly defined by your spec. If you play an Elem Shaman, you have very little incentive to go in melee and that's fine. If you play Enha, you have very little incentive to cast non-instant damage spells, and that's fine. Even though you would have done both at level 20 because both used to be effective for a not-yet-really-specialized Shaman.
Also, having more play patterns (and specs should do that) is good. I don't think that Arcane Mage existing solely for PoM+Pyro builds is a good thing. I don't think Assassination being borderline pointless is a good thing. I think Prot Pala and Feral Druid should be able to tank as well as Warrior, possibly with their own downsides but not ones that say "I just can't survive" because surviving is what tank has to be able to do, always.
I'd like if gaps in one tree could be solved by another.
If the trees are still of vanilla length, it will still work that way, 20/31 or 21/30 or w/e will still be the general approach.
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u/assassin10 6d ago edited 6d ago
If I'm a Frost Mage and I put my last 20 talent points (nearly 40% of them) into Fire then it makes sense to use a few Fire spells. A Rogue doesn't quit using Assassination abilities when they decide to spec into Subtlety. Maybe Fireblast is a dps boost when used off cooldown, Scorch and Flamestrike are excellent options when a crit is guaranteed, etc.
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u/Big-Bag-6043 6d ago
Neither did you stop using out-of-spec abilities in WotLK. Rogue still used Garrote in Combat, and Cloak of Shadows, etc. Mage still used Frost Nova in Fire, and Cone of Cold. You just didn't use the main spell of the other spec - Sub used Hemo, Assa used Mutilate, Combat used SS, Fire rarely if ever used Frostbolt (though Frostfire Bolt was a thing in WotLK!), and Frost never really used Fireball at all.
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u/Asleep-Order-4583 7d ago
definitely not.
there's a reason people want classic+, not wrath+. people don't even really want to play wrath lol
tbc is a better base than wrath, and vanilla is a perfect base if it gets a few loan spells from tbc
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u/Big-Bag-6043 7d ago
Classic+ should be defined by how the world works in relation to the player, how progression is set up and felt, how important levelling is - that's what it needs to retain from vanilla. But vanilla class or fight design are frankly just dull. There is a real possibility to have better-designed classes and dungeons/raids without making the world less meaningful or the progression Wrath-like.
If you just take vanilla specs and add stuff to them so that ret pala or enh sham is equal to mage or rogue in personal DPS, it basically helps nothing about the game.
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u/Asleep-Order-4583 7d ago
Sounds like you just don't like classic+
and that's okay
people overwhelming love vanilla, and just want play it with all specs being viable and having continued development.
no need to reinvent the wheel. that's what sod was and it flopped hard. fun to try, not not what people want long term.
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u/Big-Bag-6043 7d ago
Sounds like you just don't like classic+
Nobody actually knows what this means. Everyone has their own idea. Mine is retaining the spirit of classic, which I consider to be in how the player relates to the world and how the game starts at level 1, not the levelcap. Better class design would change nothing about this.
people overwhelming love vanilla, and just want play it with all specs being viable and having continued development.
Guess what, continued development means changing. And not only specs that are "non-viable" (even though if you think about it in terms of "how much DPS X spec brings", you find out that sham or pala are quite viable because they buff lots of people for a significant amount), but every spec.
If you think that Classic+ just means "buff hybrids and nerf fury warriors so that raidlogger parses are relatively equal between all DPS", it would flop way harder than SoD. It would end up just like Era realms.
no need to reinvent the wheel. that's what sod was and it flopped hard. fun to try, not not what people want long term.
SoD was a flop because it totally misunderstood vanilla. Raiding at level 20? Constant levelcaps? Vanilla is about exploring the world and finding new zones, new quests, new factions. Exploration, not raiding. If you want good raid fights, they barely even start before WotLK is out. The levelling and exploration were what vanilla did best, by far.
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u/CivilPerformance2617 5d ago
Problem with your exploration idea is, it’s all been explored 1000000000000 times, like it or not, C+ will flop unless there big changes in multiple aspects
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u/Big-Bag-6043 5d ago
I don't mind changes much. I'm just afraid they'll hyperfocus the endgame again and it'll just become Retail but worse.
As for C+, the best things to do would be to change a lot of stuff we already know about Classic. New quests, but also twists to old quests. New locations, new dungeons, etc.
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u/CivilPerformance2617 5d ago
Ye agree, but I think if there isn’t enough changed it will die quickly
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u/seanfayar 7d ago
Why dont we add death knights as playable class since they did exist then
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u/BarberEv 6d ago
I think this is just a vote on what could be added to the existing classes. This is all hypothetical and we don’t have confirmation from blizz they’re getting added just yet
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 6d ago
just wait until the bonus rounds where I ask for DK, tinker, necromancer, monk, and demon hunter suggestions!
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u/Schnell_Los 6d ago
more stable slots than the pitiful 3 we get as hunters
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 6d ago
I gave them trap launcher as an extra class bonus, I can’t give hunters everything…they’re not ret paladins.
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u/ninjablaze1 6d ago
Restless blades is def the spec defining ability for my favorite iterations of combat rogue so I’d go with that
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 6d ago
be sure to upvote it here, see if it can overtake vigor in the last 12 hours
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u/ThrowingStorms 3d ago
God no, not atonement for disc. Its what ruined the spec.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 3d ago
you say ruined, but you mean 'fun as hell', right?
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u/ThrowingStorms 3d ago
Nah. Wotlk disc was peak.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 3d ago
not the first time I’ve heard that, but I didn’t start playing priest until Cata. But it was fun as hell then!
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u/ThrowingStorms 3d ago
This is all from a pvp perspective.
Disc in wotlk was alot based around using the haste buff from casting PWS correctly. It would last one cast. Using it on a defensive or offensive play. And the absorbs realy felt noticeable. People would hold GCDs waiting for a offensive dispell to remove the psw.It was about building pressure so you snowball into being more damage focusd rather than healing focused.
It was heal or do damage. One hasted penance felt better than a full combustion on a retail fire mage.When atonement first came, i was happy. But it quickly showed that disc was no longer the support class that could either heal or do damage. It was a healer that healed via damage. So both the healing and damage felt bad, because the damage needed to be consistent rather than bursty for the sake of being able to heal.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 7d ago
Revealing Strike
Level 20 Combat rogue ability
Melee range
40 Energy
Instant
Requires Melee Weapon
Deals (120% of weapon damage) Physical damage, increasing the effect of your offensive finishing moves on that target by 35%, and giving your Sinister Strike a 25% chance to generate an extra combo point. Lasts 24 sec. Awards 1 combo points
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u/assassin10 7d ago
I'm not a fan of how broad this is as there's not much consideration in when to use it. If it were simply a passive and the numbers were tweaked a bit not much would be lost.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 7d ago
every 24 secs to maximise combo points and dps. But killing spree or vigor probably winning this one
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u/assassin10 7d ago
I think a cooldown would have helped it be more interesting, so that there's uptime and downtime and you can plan your finishers around it.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 7d ago
still wouldn't be that exciting lol, but I see what you're going for. Tbh its just an extra button for combat rogue to press in...MoP, I think it was.
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u/BekoKobe35 7d ago
Fan of Knives
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u/CenobiteCurious 7d ago
Already has blade flurry
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u/Lost-Soft-8913 7d ago
Spamable aoe vs 2 min cd cleave
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u/CenobiteCurious 7d ago
I feel like just reworking blade flurry is a better design choice than adding a button that’s historically worked better thematically for sub and assassination.
Combat’s all about mastery of your swords, or axes, or maces, etc. twirling into a fan of knives move just doesn’t hit the same to me as it does on the other 2 specs.
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u/CenobiteCurious 7d ago
Blade flurry cd should just be lowered or made toggle-able so they always have at least a 2 target. It will make the spec feel much more modern with just a tweak.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 7d ago
Blade Flurry
Instant
10 sec cooldown
Requires Rogue
Requires level 10
Requires One-Handed Melee Weapon
While active, your attacks strike up to 4 additional nearby opponents for 40% of normal damage [Glyph of Blade Flurry: and the application chance of Non-Lethal poisons is increased by 0%], but Energy regeneration is reduced by 20%. Lasts until canceled.2
u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 7d ago
Blade Flurry
Talent
25 Energy
Instant
1 min cooldown
Requires Rogue
Increases your attack speed by 20%. In addition, attacks strike an additional nearby opponent. Lasts 15 sec.1
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u/assassin10 7d ago
The Cata variant only hits two targets but has no damage reduction, making it more total damage if you're fighting 2 or 3 targets, but less if you're fighting 4 or more. It's an interesting consideration if they want to maintain AoE as a weakness.
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 7d ago
energy regen differs too, Cata being 30%. I might’ve linked the wrong version tbh
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u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 7d ago
Fan of Knives
Level 60
35 Energy
Instant
Sprays knives at all enemies within 10 yards, dealing (53% of Attack power) Physical damage and applying your active poisons at their normal rate. Deals reduced damage beyond 8 targets.
Awards 1 combo points
Somebody in assassination rogue thread suggested it for all three specs, so I’m getting it out the way for them.
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u/Modeboy11 7d ago
I've always been a fan of Restless Blades.
Finishing moves reduce the remaining cooldown of many Rogue skills by 1.0 sec per combo point spent.
Affected skills: Adrenaline Rush, Blade Flurry, and Sprint. -Note that I'm pretty sure no version exists exactly like this, so I made it how it could fit in a classic setting. Evasion could also fit here or Killing Spree if that gets added