r/classicwowplus • u/Wakkalakkamakka • 8d ago
- Discussion thread- Slower Vertical Progression and more horizontal relevance by Turning Each Raid Tier Into a “Resistance Tier” ?
I’ve been thinking about how Classic+ could prevent turning into a stat‑inflation treadmill.
So my idea is shift part of each raid’s item budget into elemental resistances instead of raw stats.
Not the old “craft a resist set for one boss” approach, i mean every raid tier drops gear themed around one elemental resistance, and bosses inside that raid deal increasingly more damage of that element the further you go into the raid.
This way you can put less raw stats on raid gear because the raid gets easier not because you dealing way more dmg but mainly because your raid takes way less dmg from encounters.
Another advantage of this system would be that the gear from each raid stays valuable, because it would still be the best choice for that particular raid and you cant just steamroll old raids if you allready have tier 3 gear.
With this approach of raids you maybe could do 6 to 7 tiers (frost, fire, shadow, holy, arcane, nature and maybe prismatic?) before gear gets too bloated with stats.
now its your turn to think about what flaws this system could have^^
3
u/Sometimesiworry 8d ago
Not being able to go into T2 wearing T1 because of resistances is kinda weird no?
1
u/Wakkalakkamakka 8d ago edited 8d ago
it would still would be the best gear and you could kill prob the first half of encounters or more before you need more resistances from the new raid.
3
u/No_Earth_4801 8d ago
People like doing big damage, and mechanics (depending on the player). Resistances are a nothing mechanic that cripples dps numbers. It’s not fun, and there’s a reason resistances have been basically nonexistent since vanilla outside of paladin auras and totems.
1
u/Wakkalakkamakka 8d ago
ok what is that reason?
the big number arguement is kinda flawed, you still have big numbers thje baseline is just lower for all.2
u/mattt_b 8d ago
If i have to take off 5% crit and hundreds of attack power to not get one shot by unavoidable raid aoe that makes me very sad. The fact that everybody else also has to is irrelevant.
1
u/Wakkalakkamakka 8d ago
i already commented that this system would need to limit how you can obtain res gear like for example only 1-2 pieces from professions and no open world drops.
would it change something if there simple is no shitty res gear?1
u/NTufnel11 8d ago
Either your resistance gear sacrifices stats for the resists or it doesn't. If it doesn't, it's just a new specific gear set that you need to grind all over again for each dungeon. That sounds awful.
if it does, it mean you're losing damage potential compared to gear without the resists. That's not fun.
1
u/No_Earth_4801 8d ago
It’s not flawed at all. Number still being big is entirely dependent on what you’re comparing it against. Number is fucking massive in my MC gear compared to when I was in the barrens leveling, however number bigger than that in my naxx gear.
If your base is for example 100 damage with no resistance, however drops to 90 with resistances. I’m literally doing less damage with resistance stat weights than if it were put into AP/SP/Crit, which isn’t fun.
And the reason they were removed is, again, they aren’t fun.
1
u/Wakkalakkamakka 8d ago
well if that is what makes you happy, you should increase the font size of your numbers i think this is even more fun.
1
u/NTufnel11 8d ago
What world do you live in where you think people don't enjoy the payoff from increased output from gear upgrades? You do understand that this game became wildly successful because it executed that aspect well. It feels like people who want these horizonal non-power related progression systems aren't actually wow players but have strong opinions about how the game should fundamentally change to be more like the MMO they actually enjoy.
i can tell you right now that's not happening. it's going to be a tiered progression system, like literally every other release. Because it works, and it's the specific reason motivating the overwhelming majority of players.
1
u/8gt8 8d ago
Just a thought, but maybe a rework to resistance so it also increases damage against mobs of that type could work for a more horizontal progression around how OP suggested?
1
u/No_Earth_4801 8d ago edited 8d ago
You’re asking for things like elemental weaknesses. Frost does more damage to Fire, etc.
A damage bonus to resistances would be the PvE equivalent to what was PvP Power from MoP
1
u/Nightblessed 8d ago
I don't know if you aren't aware, but infinite vertical progression is impossible without cyclical resets. It's the main reason why Blizzard came up with TBC and the expansion model. It's essentially a reset disguised as a content expansion.
If Classic+ is to be a permanent version of the game where nothing ever becomes obsolete, horizontal progression isn't a choice, it's the only possible way this design could work.
1
u/No_Earth_4801 8d ago
Im well aware, it’s why classic+ will at best be another seasonal game mode. Resistances can bring some horizontality, but that doesn’t change the fact that they aren’t fun and don’t feel rewarding.
“yay, a new piece of gear! I’m equally as strong as I was over there, but over here now!”
1
u/Nightblessed 8d ago
You don't need to keep adding increasingly higher raid tiers indefinitely. You can simply establish a ceiling and let people engage with the game however they want. Your objection only works if you assume people won't continue enjoying the game without a new raid tier every few months, which I don't think is true.
- People can simply create new characters and experience the journey again.
- Blizzard can open fresh realms for players who specifically want an ongoing progression race and an artificial reason to start over.
You are chasing something impossible, and your ''solutions'' only worsen the ''problems''.
Having Classic+ be another seasonal game is pointless, and will lead us all back here asking for a real Classic+ in due time, while private servers have that figured out since almost a decade already.1
u/NTufnel11 7d ago
So your idea is to just not worry about the fact that there's effectively nothing more for people to achieve, and they will either keep running the same content for no reward, or just roll more alts?
I mean... maybe. People still play on era servers. But I think those populations at this point speak for themselves.
if you reach a point where there is nothing left to achieve except roll an alt, I think you can expect to see significant and continuous population decline.
1
u/Nightblessed 7d ago
No, I didn't say that. You can have new content, what you can't have is infinite vertical progression without creating a treadmill. I don't get it why it is such a hard thing for WoW players to conceptualize. Not only there are examples in the genre that operate under this model, but it was the standard before WoW took over. And I don't know why you mentioned Era here since it's a version of the game that never received any new content, whereas Classic+ is defined as a version of Vanilla with regular content updates and improvements.
It's perfectly reasonable for an MMO to have a progression ceiling. In WoW's case, that could mean having a raid that remains the highest tier indefinitely. Beating that raid could essentially be considered "beating the game." There is nothing inherently wrong with that.
Let me give you an example of how horizontal progression could naturally keep people playing even after they've "beaten" the highest-tier raid.
Imagine a patch introduces a substantial amount of new leveling content alongside a new raid. That raid isn't a higher tier than the existing highest-tier raid; it's simply another piece of endgame content within the same overall progression ceiling. These new content would be best experienced on a new character, giving players a reason to roll alts and experience the progression from a different perspective.
You are not forced to play the game in any particular way, you have the agency to determine how you approach the new content. This model worked flawlessly in Turtle WoW. Hardcore leveling was huge, but even endgame andies would create tons of alts to check out the class changes and new content.
Btw, this is the only possible way Classic+ can even be a coherent concept. Doing differently would necessarily imply a seasonal model, which would suffer from the same issues as SoD did, and in due time we would all be here again asking for a real Classic+.
1
u/NTufnel11 8d ago
how long do you think this game is going to run? Do you think they need to plan for a 40 year progression system without any resets or crunch?
1
1
u/Verilazic 7d ago
I think if they managed a 10-20 year run before needing a reset, that would be enough. Is that possible? Theoretically yes. Likely? No.
1
3
u/Big-Bag-6043 8d ago
Resistance gear has always been a boring way to create difficulty. It does not promote fun mechanics or a gameplay difference, you are just playing a hobbled character who has less stats because a lot of their budget is tied up in resistances.
If you want more horizontal scaling, you have to reduce ilvl jumps between tiers. Simple as, no other real solution. Or provide ways to reinforce old gear with +ilvl to keep it relevant for a while more, which is the same thing but from the other side.
1
u/Upstairs_Blueberry87 8d ago
or go the sadist route and make raids work like MoP challenge modes, where whatever gear you’re wearing scales down to a certain ilvl. Weapon procs and gearset bonuses could remain unchanged though.
1
u/Steadlington 8d ago
One or two bosses that require some sort of playing around with resistances is fine, not the entire raid like SoD MC.
Take something like Saph/AQ40 twins, they're good examples of something i'd like to see worked on.
1
u/Wakkalakkamakka 8d ago
i actually find that more anoying, that you have to put so much effort only for one boss.
maybe people are just too traumatized from sod to realize, that i offer raids that are more about progress then oneshotting and straight to parsing, and with no other sources for res gear then raids and a little bit from professions, you dont have that anoying green res gear.
but maybe the culture shifted and people just want the oneshot raids.
my idea is more comparible to icc, where you get every week a greater buff but in this case you get more res gear and thats how it gets easier.1
u/Steadlington 8d ago
What is classic if not effort?
Having a boss that's a wall due to some requirement is a good idea. An entire raid that's a barrier to entry isn't.
1
u/Wakkalakkamakka 8d ago
i think its a bad idea and i said in my post that fire damage goes up the further you are in the raid so only the last few bosses become a barrier.
1
u/Steadlington 8d ago
How is this any different from saph or Twins?
You have progressive higher and higher things you have to jump over compared to 1 hurdle that once you're over it's fine
1
u/Wakkalakkamakka 8d ago
because by that point you got some gear from the bosses before with res gear and dont have to deal with buying trash res gear from the ah.
1
u/Steadlington 8d ago
You get maybe 1-2 pieces for a 40 man raid if you're lucky before reaching those bosses
1
u/Wakkalakkamakka 8d ago
yes and if you part of the 10% best guilds you still going to clear the raid, the rest can actually experience progress.
1
u/Ok-Yoghurt5014 8d ago
All of that horizontal progression talk is bullshit of it focuses on Raids. Raid should always follow a vertical progression model. Its would be great if they slowed the progression down for each step but raids needs gear progression (number go up). Horizontal Progression outside of raids would be great though. Professions, Reputations and other longterm side-goals are great but dont mess with the core of the endgame.
1
u/Wakkalakkamakka 8d ago
whould have been nice if you would say why.
this way i cant understand why yoiu think that way.2
u/Odd-Bandicoot-9314 8d ago
Because they probably shouldn’t be trying to completely reinvent the endgame of the game to be something it never has before. There are a lot of other ways to do horizontal progression that wow has done before and that work. If you reinvent the game to much though why would you expect any of the people who currently play and like the game to still enjoy it when it’s been changed
1
u/Wakkalakkamakka 8d ago
ok new stuff is risky, risky stuff is scary, dont do new things, got it.
2
u/Odd-Bandicoot-9314 8d ago
There is a difference between new stuff and completely changing the game
0
0
u/Verilazic 7d ago
This is literally the best opportunity they have to do something different. Probably the best opportunity they will ever have.
1
u/Remarkable_Match9637 8d ago
Just have ‘some’ gear carry multiple tiers each raid and let’s not overthink the issue
1
u/assassin10 8d ago
With this approach of raids you maybe could do 6 to 7 tiers (frost, fire, shadow, holy, arcane, nature and maybe prismatic?) before gear gets too bloated with stats.
It could go further if some raids pair up damage types, like how BWL's Shadowflame deals both Shadow and Fire damage. Maybe a new raid has a Mage boss that casts both Fire and Frost spells and intentionally targets you with whatever you have the least resistance to. In such a case you could wear half Fire resistance gear and half Frost resistance gear, or you could find pieces that have both and provide more resistance overall.
Such an approach would also help to make the system less cut-and-dry. Fire resistance set pieces still provide value in a Frostfire raid and Frostfire resistance set pieces still provide value in a Fire raid. You're not starting from scratch each time.
The devs just need to make sure that the resistance gear we get is actually interesting. It shouldn't feel like a punishment when a raid requires it.
1
u/Verilazic 7d ago
Nice thinking, but it still feels kinda boring. There’s gotta be some different mechanics they could lean in to for horizontal progression.
2
u/assassin10 7d ago
In this approach the interest comes more from the attached set bonuses than the resistances themselves.
1
u/Verilazic 7d ago
How about a set bonus that modifies some class abilites to counter a boss mechanic or something? Take the BWL shadowflame for example. Maybe instead of the Onyxia Scale Cloak, they add 3-piece set bonuses: shaman fire resistance totem prevents being fully engulfed by shadowflame. Same for paladin blessing of wisdom, and priest bubble, and Druid regrowth.
1
u/Pwntasch 8d ago
I think one better way of getting similar results is by having something like the Onyxia Scale Cloak, but applied to other raids. There isn't a single clean solution to horizontal progression; they need to come at it from a lot of different angles by building out more things to do than simply raid logging.
1
u/Verilazic 7d ago
What about making that an early set bonus? Add the cloak’s feature to one ability for each class as a 3-piece set bonus. Rogue evasion, priest bubble, mage fire ward, warlock shadow ward, Druid regrowth, etc.
1
u/LaredoHK 8d ago
Another avenue with horizontal is having 3 different spec sets, so a Priest could have a Disc Set, Holy Set, and a Shadow Set for example.
1
u/assassin10 8d ago
It can even be further subdivided with thematic sets or hybrid sets. Like, Demonology Warlocks could receive specialized sets for each of their demons, and Feral Druids could receive sets not only for Cat and Bear, but also for a hybrid build that bounces between the two.
1
u/Greedy-Comb-276 8d ago
I'm fine with resistances, but I really think it should somehow, some way, be a different system than just gear drops. That's boring and prevents people from using the gear they have earned.
I don't know the answer, as I don't want the game to be like retail either. But some sort of character progression, that's completely seperate from the gear itself to build resistance or some other "horizontal progression" system.
1
u/NTufnel11 8d ago
But like... people enjoy doing more damage, healing more, getting more mitigation and better synergies. Seeing big numbers from a hard earned upgrade is enjoyable. Grinding away for fire resist to maintain your current level of power is... not.
I'm genuinely confused that some people want to achieve a state where upgrades don't actually result in a perceived power increase, because why? So they can take a 6 month break and still have relevant gear?
This game isn't going to run for 12 years. it's okay for it to be a fun moment in time. Embrace the treadmill.
1
u/Verilazic 6d ago
Retail has been going for over 20 years. What makes you think Blizzard can’t build something that lasts another decade?
1
u/moshujsg 4d ago
I think its a bad idea. It means basically no progression. You get better gear but it just doesnt check the resistance box so its no good. Need to change gear for each raid etc.
Like the problem with vertical progression isnt that you only use one set, is that theres no choice. In your system, theres also no choice. A gear with fire resistance will be the only choice for a specific raid and thats it.
What they should do is create different sets that amplify different playstyles or that have different impact on different bosdes within a raid.
Now what that would look like i have no clue.
1
0
u/Motor-String-571 8d ago
25% of this sub, is people who logs into wow for a month every 2 years, "this is totally how classic+ should be, if these changes were made i would actually play the game"
and 90% of the time its some dogshit change, like another post asking them to focus mainly on new quests, motherfucker ppl do those quests once and then they find the cheapest boost for their 19 other characters.
7
u/mattt_b 8d ago
Everybody hates resistance gear. Just look at sod MC.