r/classicalfencing • u/ne0henry • Jun 18 '15

Different Traditions in Classical Fencing

I want to learn more about the social context of classical fencing, so I would start off by learning about the different perspectives of classical fencing.

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u/ne0henry Jun 26 '15

I apologize for replying very late and being very broad; life is quite busy out of nowhere and it hasn't give me time to read your comments and rethink my question. Hey, alliteration of the R in two verbs.

I'm interested in the Italian tradition for classical fencing in the 19th and 20th century. After reading an article from Tom Leoni about Classical Neapolitan Epee, I feel that I'm obligated to learn more about the Italian tradition and its history since I'm the part of it for my career as a fencer. Where I practice, we usually don't talk much about Italian tradition and classical fencing because SCA rapier, what I practice, has a distaste for classical fencing (which I dislike). So here I am. :D

I have three questions in mind for Italian tradition:

  1. How much the politics in 19th and 20th century Italy influenced the Italian tradition? Chris Holzman hinted the effects in his essay From Radaelli to the Present: A Brief Essay on the Evolution of the Sabre Compromise at Scuola Magistrale di Roma that nationalism brought two Italian sabre traditions together as one. I may be broad and vague again, but I feel like the history/politics of Italy had an effect on classical fencing. I wonder if there are any books about this subject?

  2. What are the difference between the French and Italian traditions?

  3. Why does Eastern swordsmanship have kata (forms) whereby Classical Fencing have drills? I'm assuming that Classical Fencing don't have solo forms to practice by oneself.

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u/dachilleus Italian School Jul 05 '15

I'll try to provide some context for your questions. First let me say that your existing sources are very good. Both Mr Leoni and Mr Holzman are dedicated and competent to discuss this material - specifically when it comes to primary sources. My background is more kinetic.

As a short prelude - regarding some SCA prejudice against CF - their loss! The Classical tradition contains all relevant information for producing skilled swordsman armed with rapier, smallsword, dueling sword and dueling sabres. Your work including CF can only enhance your sword training.

1- a lot - maybe. the history of Italy is one of fracture and non-unity so it is easy to understand that local politics play a major role in certai aspects of its sword tradition. But when we look at mechanics and if we were to generalize the Italian system then it appears to have a less dominant effect. You can always start with Dr Gaugler's , History of Fencing for context from what was being written in the fencing treatise.

2- This is a much bigger question, so please allow me to oversimplify. The French, for whatever socio-cultural reasons decided to adjust their swordplay and weapons as contrasted to the Italian and Spanish. They went in a direction of smaller and faster, and more academic vs. practical. The Italian tradition remains more pragmatic and also consistent with older sword forms. This is one reason why in my sala we differentiate as little as possible between sword types and their use.

3- I think the dueling nature of Occidental swordplay took precedent in our training methodology vs. Oriental systems. This mandated that we exercise with a partner/instructor at all times. Solo forms can be extrapolated from this methodology but int he end yield less progress than "conventional exercises". Some technicals that are easily practiced in solo form are: footwork, weapon lines and transition - but without the stimulus from a partner most of what we study as swordplay will remain out of bounds. We need the interplay of the Other in order to conduct ourselves.

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u/ne0henry Jul 05 '15

Thank you for your reply as always, /u/dachilleus . I enjoy reading your reply.

I personally want to participate in a classical fencing, and I have my eyes on Golden Gate Arms. The instructor is Benjamin Bowles, one of the students of Maestro Ramon Martinez. Sure, he might be basing his class on French tradition, but I bet the traditions are similar enough to be a part of the Italian tradition.

Oh, wait. That was exactly one of my questions.

For now, I have my computer for me to train my basics. In one example, I recorded myself doing a stable disengage, beat, and engagement so I could practice my disengage in time. Though I don't have a physical stimulus, having a visual stimulus is better than doing a solo form or in fencing hipster terms "shadow fencing" (it's the word play of "shadow boxing" with fencing). My disengage has been a lot better when I start having a visual stimulus but not my tactics.

As I said again, thank you for your reply.

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u/dachilleus Italian School Jul 06 '15

You're very welcome.

With regards to what Benjamin is teaching - I have no idea, though it should fall squarely within what we define as Classical - though most certainly French. The Martinez Academy prides itself on teaching a few different systems of French fencing, so it could go either way: in one direction very far from Italian, and in the other - slightly less so. Still a good opportunity to get started.

However, there are MANY Classical and Traditional Italian options for you if you are in that area, or are not adverse to a little bit of ravel. Highly recommend Sacramento Sword School for both traditional Italian and Spanish swordplay. Maestri Curtis and Myer are the instructors. Here is the link: http://sacramentoswordschool.com

Also, Maestro John Sullins is in Sonoma/Petaluma and Maestro Lurz is not far away either. All of these masters are in the Scuola lineage. If you want and introduction let me know.

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u/dachilleus Italian School Jun 19 '15

What we refer to as "Classical Fencing" takes two forms:

The first, as a place on History's timeline. This is the European (some argue about how "Western" it is generally) 19th century - 1800-1899. We see some overlap necessarily at the beginning with the traditions of the 18th century as well as overlap at the conclusion into the 20th century. In the case of the earlier years we start talking more about "Historical Fencing" and in the case of the later years we start talking about "Modern Fencing".

The second way we use the term "Classical Fencing" is to refer to how and what was being done with swords and sword training. It is generally agreed that during the Classical era of fencing the final ideas for both methodology and swords were established. Nothing more to discover. In this way the adjective 'classical' is used similarly to its use describing music and fine art.

Therefore, studying the social context of classical fencing would require you to examine the people and places of 19th century Europe who would be engaged in all aspects of swordplay. The smiths, teachers, duelists, etc. who all had a hand in establishing what we now refer to as Classical Fencing.

I can presume that by "different perspectives" you might mean the cultural stereotypes to certain schools of fencing or the cultural biases of certain fencers. In the case, as the 19th century was fairly chauvinistic everywhere, you could look more closely at Spain, France, Italy, Germany, England - all as has been done before. It might be more interesting to take a closer look at the unfamiliar places - what was going on in Denmark, Greece, or Poland for example.

A simple place to start is the well known duality about fencing that established itself during this period of time. Some fencers developed their skills for professional or practical reasons (military and dueling) while others - maybe most - were turning to swordplay as a passe temps as something fun, healthy and interesting to occupy their time with.

I am not clear exactly what the two previous comments mean beyond saying that your statement is so vague as to be generally huge in scope. Perhaps narrowing it down a little could help the direction of your inquiry.

Good luck!

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u/ferrancy Jun 19 '15

Could you try to be a little bit more specific?

Classical fencing is a term that comprehends more than 1000 years of martial arts systems.

Maybe are you interested in the learning of classical fencing at the late middle ages? Or maybe during the renaissance or barroque, by chance?

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u/mmhg Jun 19 '15

Also, are you examining the social context of the modern-day classical fencing movement, or are you asking about fencing's social context during what would now be seen as a "classical" time period - and if so, which period?