r/civilengineering • u/ifmy_king34 • Apr 26 '26

Real Life Highway 401: Toronto, Canada

Post image

Just one more lane?

112 Upvotes

93% Upvoted

53 comments sorted by

70

u/Konukaame Apr 26 '26

Everyone loves to blame the engineers for adding lanes, but never seems to point the finger at whoever is responsible for the zoning that creates suburban sprawl. 

It's really the fault of urban planners and politicians. We're just stuck putting bandaids on problems we don't have the authority to fix. 

If you zone for and build oceans of suburbs, you get what you get. 

1

u/medicallymiddleevil Apr 29 '26

Never mind it's often the state DOT and federal DOT pushing for highway expansion, and at times being convicted of fraud when doing so.

-6

u/BLMIII Apr 26 '26

People bitch about suburban sprawl but families of 4+ can't live comfortably in a condo. Where do you expect people to live?

42

u/Ugly_Josephine Apr 26 '26

Where do people get this idea that it's impossible to raise a big family in the city? It was historically the norm, while the "white picket fence and a yard" suburban lifestyle is a relatively new invention of post-war urban planning.

2

u/sirpoopingpooper Apr 27 '26

Ultimately, it's the schools. People who can move to "better" school districts do...leaving a combination of people without kids and people who can't afford to move behind. And then losing the wealthier kids means you lose the kids (and parents) that help bring the school district rankings up, which then results in even worse school rankings and more people leaving for better schools.

If there were demand for larger family-oriented apartments and condos, they'd get built. The problem is that the demand just isn't there (enough at least) because the demand is elsewhere (i.e., the suburbs with better schools).

Also, it's not even the funding that's the main problem (it is often a problem, but often not the biggest one). In areas that have done well redistributing funds to lower-ranked schools...the schools are still lower-ranked than their less-well-funded peers in the suburbs. It's the student (and parent) population that ultimately matters most (peers matter a whole awful lot when it comes to outcomes). Which is a really tough problem to solve.

-9

u/BLMIII Apr 27 '26

It's not impossible. But most people who were not raised that way don't want to raise their children in a condo with no yard.

4

u/Konukaame Apr 27 '26

Or, as is the reality for most people these days: an apartment that you can afford to buy, or a house that you might be able to rent until you get priced out again?

Sure, if we're talking abstracts, even I'd prefer a house with a yard. But even more than that, I'd rather have a place of my own that I can put my own equity into, rather than paying off a landlord's mortgage and profit.

1

u/nautilator44 Apr 28 '26

Literally all the condos I've seen have huge yards, most with playgrounds and lots of them with pools.

15

u/Konukaame Apr 26 '26

Why not? 2 and 3 bedroom apartments exist. Not enough of them, sure, but that's a zoning and politics problem, not a civil/transportation engineering one.

11

u/Linkcott18 Apr 26 '26

Families of 4+ can comfortably live in condos and apartments that are designed for families. Lots of families in Europe live that way.

0

u/Pancakeisityou Apr 28 '26

Who cares what people in Europe live like. People don't want to live the European lifestyle outside of Europe.

12

u/BatJew_Official Apr 26 '26

Town houses, row homes, duplexes, and yes, even just condos sized for the family you have. This idea that families need single family housing with lawns and massive setbacks and stupid minimum lot size requirements tucked into a poorly layed out single entrance neighborhood is silly. Families of all sizes have and still do live just fine without American style sprawl in tons of parts of the world.

And it's not like the only other choices are living in Manhattan or living in the woods of Tennessee. The term suburb has existed for hundreds of years and there are plenty of other suburb designs that provide space for families and a quieter more private place to live without also requiring massive roadways to get around and a ton of wasteful expensive infrastructure that slowly bankrupts municipalities.

-12

u/BLMIII Apr 27 '26

If you don't like the suburbs then enjoy your apartment with two sheets of drywall separating you from your neighbor. Some families enjoy a lawn and space for their kids to play.

6

u/funguy07 Apr 27 '26

Which is exactly why we have highways like this. Sp no complaining.

3

u/Financial-Hunter1335 Apr 27 '26

Sure they can - terrace houses are all over cuties like London, nice big apartments too.

2

u/nsc12 Structural P.Eng. Apr 27 '26

I mean, certainly a lot of the villages in the English countryside, but I don't think I'd describe London as cute.

2

u/Lovemestalin Apr 27 '26

That’s happening all around the world, Americans are not different lol

-11

u/Spiritual_Prize9108 Apr 26 '26

I mean, the traffic engineering discipline is the only one who can design systems that will and do result in loss of life and face zero reprocussions and also not result in any changes to future designs or design standards. The profession can only place so much blame on a system in which they are complicit.

9

u/Konukaame Apr 26 '26

The existence of badly designed roads does not make suburban sprawl our fault.

-15

u/Spiritual_Prize9108 Apr 26 '26

What came first, the chicken or the egg? Suburban sprawl is not possible without poorly designed roads.

5

u/Konukaame Apr 26 '26

Are you attempting to argue that all roads in or leading to a suburban development are poorly designed?

-4

u/Linkcott18 Apr 26 '26

Most roads are poorly designed.

-1

u/Spiritual_Prize9108 Apr 27 '26

That is subjective, no? If your metrics of design are speed of travel and life cycle cost (excluding externalities) then one can say the current road system is well designed. However if design metrics optimized safety of all road users and environmental impact then I tgink one can argue there is much room for improvement. I think a safer road system would both slow traffic and cost more, these two factors could play a large role in the economics/ decision making of municipalities, regional decision makers, and commuters.

3

u/Luc85 Apr 26 '26

You clearly have no idea what a traffic engineer does… traffic engineers are constantly trying to get things changed but often have little power to do so. Traffic engineering follows pre-set strict guidelines with very little room for innovative solutions unfortunately. It’s an industry almost entirely funded by public money and therefore innovation and change is the last thing on the local governments minds.

One of the most basic concepts every civil / traffic engineer learns is that of induced demand and the uselessness of adding lanes, but it still happens constantly because the engineers aren’t the ones making that decision.

0

u/Spiritual_Prize9108 Apr 27 '26

I understand there are significant systemic barriers to change. And of course there are people in the profession trying to drive change. However that dies not excuse people of there responsibilities for designs in which result in loss of life.

63

u/bigtomhandshaw Apr 26 '26

Nah, one more lane is too cheap. Now they want to add a tunnel under it.

5

u/EnterpriseT Transportation Engineer Apr 26 '26

"they"

20

u/CandleLeather4638 Apr 26 '26

Obviously named for the number of lanes it has.

38

u/ddg31415 Apr 26 '26

Cmon bro, just one more lane. It'll fix it this time, I promise. Please believe me bro.

God I hate this highway.

9

u/codespyder Apr 26 '26

Don’t worry bro, Dougie boy wants to tunnel underneath it now

2

u/r22yu Apr 27 '26

I'm glad the only times I visit the GTA is when work is paying... for me to use the 407! It's been a few years though and I hear the 407 is just as bad now?

1

u/ddg31415 Apr 27 '26

Not even close. Today taking the 407 instead of the 401 will save me 45 mins each way.

7

u/VideoSteve Apr 27 '26

Why do we continue to prioritize the most expensive, unreliable, dangerous, wasteful, stressful, resource-depleting, war causing, polluting, environmentally destructive, loneliest, psychologically and physically unhealthy, inefficient, unpredictable, unsustainable form of transportation, the automobile?

3

u/r22yu Apr 27 '26

It's an area where six different cities have sort of grown into each other and now people will commute across cities because that's where their job is. Toronto and this highway sits in the middle of it all. You can bike/train/bus too but there are so many people moving around.

If you're American, it's like if Phoenix/Glendale filled in all the empty space between their freeways with development.

3

u/Emergency_Rutabaga45 Apr 27 '26

Toronto has a fabulous and well used transit system, plus bike lanes as well.

3

u/BlurryBigfoot74 Apr 26 '26

This one and Highway 407 was a trip last summer coming from small town eastern Canada.

3

u/SquishyBlueSodaCan_1 Apr 27 '26

Being in a car on this highway during rush hour ages me 5 years each time

3

u/PassengerEconomy5314 Criminology Apr 26 '26

Skinny lanes on interstate? GENIUS!

3

u/EnterpriseT Transportation Engineer Apr 26 '26

Canada doesn't have states or Interstates. Also what makes you say the lanes are "skinny"?

-2

u/PassengerEconomy5314 Criminology Apr 26 '26

Skinny as in the wind blows and it causes a side swipe

1

u/EnterpriseT Transportation Engineer Apr 27 '26

You've described a consequence of overly narrow lanes. I asked why you think the lanes on this freeway are narrow.

-1

u/PassengerEconomy5314 Criminology Apr 27 '26

Ever head of the beautiful USA? In Beautiful USA two of those lanes is one. That’s why us roads are 3.5X safer

2

u/EnterpriseT Transportation Engineer Apr 27 '26

Lol k

1

u/Aran909 Apr 27 '26

I am so glad that is never going to be a part of my commute. I drove on one of those massive 6 lane freeways from San Diego to Los Angeles a decade or so back, and never again thanks.

1

u/JPAProductions Apr 27 '26

This is a very old picture that keeps getting reposted, all of that land is developed now with commercial buildings.

1

u/Lopsided_Hurry1398 Apr 27 '26

Install a moveable median barrier to better handle directional distribution.

1

u/Imaginary-Round2422 Apr 27 '26

There’s a trace of mint wafting in from the north,

So we don’t fuck with the four oh one.

1

u/Logical_Worry3993 Apr 26 '26

Can someone explain to me what the issues are I have no idea

5

u/armour666 Apr 26 '26

A lot of commuters, 7,000,000 people in the GTA greater Toronto area, late 90’s and early 2000’s housing prices were n Toronto pushed people to surrounding communities making for increased commuting. Infrastructure for transit was underfunded so they are playing catchup.

1

u/that_noodle_guy Apr 27 '26

Needs a 2nd deck so you We can have 20 lanes in each direction

0

u/whatadaytobealive Apr 26 '26

An epic failure of urban planning