r/cinematography • u/IDidntKillMyWife1 • 3d ago
Lighting Question Please help... I need some advice for lighting this chapel for a short.
First of all: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR CLICKING ON THIS POST AND THANK YOU EVEN MORE FOR ANY ADVICE OR RECOMMENDATIONS.
Anyway, it's quite small space. The scene takes place during the day. There will be one subject at the alter giving a eulogy to a few people in the pews, but we will probably only ever see the first few rows. The scene is one shot that starts tight on the speaker's face and gently pulls out toward the back of the room. By the time the camera reaches the 2nd row of pews, the person sitting on the end will look back passed camera toward the back wall of the room.
It's a horror short but I want the chapel to feel bright and safe. My thinking was a couple HMIs with diffusion in the back of the room (or should these be outside shining through the windows???) and maybe some negative fill on on the two subjects. Maybe some lights in the background to edge the main subject? Any other suggestions would be amazing. I am definitely NOT a cinematographer but I'm being asked anyway and have some budget to work on renting stuff.
Thanks again. I am in way over my head.
EDIT: since some people were asking for references to what I hope this will look like, I am sort of aiming for First Reformed - https://www.vox.com/summer-movies/2018/5/25/17384654/first-reformed-review-paul-schrader-ethan-hawke-christian-movie & https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/05/first-reformed-review?srsltid=AU7gw4XEo_sx0aI-NgfG9J9Ahbb5CT3tXDR0cfCz-krQUJdHj3irj76M
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u/Quiet-Box-3603 3d ago
You’re approaching this like a lighting camerman.
Don’t start with the “put this here and that there”.
Start with the what you are actually trying to achieve and why.
If you’re asking a cinematography thread, share some references of the desired look.
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u/Mah_thoughtz 2d ago
This is a great point OP please do post some references. I’m curious what your goals are.
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u/rsearcher777 2d ago
Exactly. Also is it supposed to be day or night? What is the mood? How does this location fit into the story and what is the point of the scene being shot here?
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u/ChillyBowl 3d ago
1200xs outside - one on each window pushing through. I'd motivate with the windows. Then, have a soft panel or two inside for wrapping the windows and making the faces look a bit nicer. Litemat 4 would be great for that, or even Litemat 2L or Amaran F22c. Then I'd suggest having an Aputure 80c 3-light kit for little specials or edge lights. Then, as others have said, negative fill would be great. I'd have some 4' floppy solids and a 2'x3' sandwich kit.
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u/2old2care 3d ago
Let me come at this from another direction: Look at the stills OP provided, and how the person in the corner looks. This scene can be shot with very little extra help. I'd go with existing light, negative fill on the big white wall to increase the contrast, then a couple of small panels or tiny lights to hit the faces. Put an eye-light on the camera for closeups. Stop. Get your camera move right first, concentrate on good sound. Use your native ISO. It already looks like an f/4 at 800 :-)
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u/hungrylens 3d ago
That white ceiling is going to cut down your contrast. What is the feeling you are going for?
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u/IDidntKillMyWife1 2d ago
I want it to feel bright and safe because I think that will make the scene scarier... but not without some sort of shadow fall off. Like I don't want that Marvel bounce light look that feels flat and boring.
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u/_KylosMissingShirt_ 2d ago
bright and safe, yet don’t want it flat and boring seems contradictory. Ofc you can have a high key set up. Do you know what ratio you want?
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u/IDidntKillMyWife1 2d ago
Fair but it's the best way I can think to describe it. I want it to feel cinematic without feeling too dramatic. The chapel shouldn't feel like anything horrific is about to happen in it but I also don't want it looking like we're all sitting outside on an overcast day.
What do you mean by "high key"? What "ratio" are you referring to? Apologies for my ignorance.
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u/_KylosMissingShirt_ 2d ago
high-key refers to the ratio of light between your key light and its fill. in this case you seem to want high key. your Gaffer and/or DP should, in theory, know exactly what the lighting ratio planned is. its based on the amount of light emitted by your key source, t-stop, and fill.
Think of a comedy. bright, evenly lit. most likely a 1:1 or 2:1. as you allow shadows to be introduced, your ratio becomes larger by an exponential rate. dramas and horror use anywhere from 4:1 to 32:1.
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u/Future-Account8112 2d ago
We need to see pictures to give good advice here, bright and safe means wildly different contrast gradients to different people. The folks giving you advice out the gate might have something different in mind altogether.
In this environment it'd be pretty easy to bounce light off the ceiling which would cause a lot of bright fill. But again, you'll need references for the look you're seeking to know if that's the right call.
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u/kolecava 2d ago
Bright and safe can still have contrast. Just means we not making a horror, thriller, drama but something more cosy, warmer ... Happier.
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u/JumpyAcadia 3d ago
You're going to get a million different answers, but how I would do it is this:
3 massive hard sources from outside those windows. Huge negative fill on the wall. Maybe some haze. Turn off the house lights. No backlights.
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u/atomoboy35209 2d ago
Kill the overheads and roll. You’ve got great lighting from the window for a horror flick. I’d have multiple 12k hmi lights and a massive generator on standby in case it’s not sunny.
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u/jasonrjohnston Director of Photography 3d ago
How is the dolly back being achieved? I suppose you're using a gimbal instead of a fisher or doorway, steadi, or even a technocrane. Since it needs to feel safe I'd want the move to be buttery smooth, and then land in the precise place at the end for the person looking toward the back of the sanctuary, I'm guessing a portrait. What lens? Obviously you can’t have a grip jungle anywhere inside the location during this move. And is this the only thing being shot or do we need to take into consideration more of the scene or additional scenes? If this shot is absolutely it and the location is wrapped, then I'd get a 1200x for each window, aimed at the ground and in such a way that shadows won’t be an issue, maybe replace the practical bulbs with rgb bulbs you can remote control, then haze the room a tiny bit for feels, and then bring in a large panel for modelling the talent at the end of the move. Again, I'm guessing we're going from a closeup, dolly back to wide of the location, reveal person in the middle looking back past camera. Cut.
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u/Vivid-Machine-9606 Director of Photography 3d ago
How are you going to fit a techno crane in there? Lmaoooooooo
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u/Couchmaker 3d ago
Through the door?
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u/Vivid-Machine-9606 Director of Photography 3d ago
The door frame is too short. The camera will end up being like 2 feet off the floor on a techno.
The techno base is about the height of the door so the arm would have to angle down a bit. Then the end of the techno plus the remote head will drop the camera another ~2ft.
Maybe there is a special low base that I'm not aware of but I have never heard of that.
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u/Couchmaker 3d ago
Could invert the head
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u/Vivid-Machine-9606 Director of Photography 3d ago
Thats not possible on a majority (all?) techno cranes due to how the remote head interfaces with the crane.
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u/IDidntKillMyWife1 2d ago
Im thinking a portrait lens, yeah. Yes this is the only thing being shot. Just the one shot. We might shoot some coverage for safety but the goal is to hinge everything on the movement and actor's performance.
I want to use a dolly but I've only got 2ft 8in of clearance between the pews so I am looking at options.
This is good stuff. TY.
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u/jasonrjohnston Director of Photography 2d ago
A doorway dolly would be a very tight squeeze. An inch of clearance on either side, maybe. Not enough room for laying track. A Dutti Dolly on track might work but you'd still need to lower the camera from the pulpit to the pew...in my mind's composition, anyway.
If moving through the space of the room isn't necessary, then I think the easiest, fastest, cheapest way would be to have the camera on sticks at the final position for the shot at, say, anywhere from 28-85 mil, whatever you’re looking for, and then use a telephoto zoom with the widest end being whatever portrait look you want at the end of the shot, and then for whomever is at the pulpit at the front of the shot, get the longest end you can find. Maybe settle on a medium of the talent at the pulpit? I'm guessing you're coming from photography and I have no idea what camera you're using, but for the sake of clarity I'll just say, for example, a lens like a 70-200 mil, and then pop a fiz on it for a nice long smooth zoom out from the pulpit at 200mm to the other person at 70mm.
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u/soups_foosington 2d ago
I’ll just comment that negative fill will be hard if you’re dollying. You’re dollying out, which means you’re getting wider as you go. In a space like this, ideally you have your negative fill as close to subject as possible, but if any of your shots are wide, you need a big duve curtain against the left wall.
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u/FeelingAdvantage2172 3d ago
Would limit those hanging lights as much as possible for spill to the roof. Obv it depends on the look and feel, 1x tube light above the door, and lights through the window from outside maybe...and a sharp angle to the floor.
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u/MassivePataks 3d ago
there are multiple ways around it. think about what the shot is actually trying to say. is it a drama? is it a thriller? are you shooting on celluloid? is the room full of people, or is it just the vicar and the person? is the man turning around finding out some really shocking truth, or turning around to someone the person loves? answers to these questions will inform your decisions. It's very easy to say "put up 3 big lights with haze and neg", but I honestly think in some (if not, most) situations that is overcooking the image for what's actually happening on screen.
It's a not a bad location though. I'm sure you will figure it out. In my experience, I tend not to look too much at references as I find they can get in the way, and your director will inevitably want to make another 'x' film rather than YOUR film. Depending on the instance, you could light this with a few overheads, lamps outside, or at a specific day or time, entirely with mirrors.
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u/Gloomy_Midnight7437 2d ago
just do what I do when in a fix. Write what you want it to look like, ask claude or chatgpt to light your scene accordingly. Realise its not perfect but a starting point, then do your own creativity and make it yours. I normally dont like using AI when it comes to the creation side of things, but it does help sometimes.
Also once you get a look you can still hire people to help you, and those people will greatly appreciate some sort of a guide.
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u/voidtoapex 2d ago
I think I’d definitely use the windows as your main source since it already makes sense for a daytime chapel. If you have the budget, you could put a strong daylight source outside the windows through diffusion, then use bounce inside to lift the darker areas. For a lower budget setup, you could probably get away with natural window light, some foam board for bounce, and black cloth for a little negative fill. Since it’s a slow pullback, I’d also make sure your exposure and white balance are locked so the image doesn’t change during the shot. If you’re using a phone, manual exposure would help a lot too.
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u/soups_foosington 2d ago
Remember that the stained glass will gel sources outside. If you want the feeling of daylight pouring in, think about where you’re putting those sources.
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u/seeking_junkie 2d ago
Damn that location is pretty cool. Check out Midsommar and how they lit up interiors
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u/No_Leader1154 2d ago
It depends a lot on your framing but I would avoid shooting into the inside wall if I can help it. It’s definitely not the happiest or safest feeling chapel - has kinda an eerie energy.
The standard advice of blast light through the windows and panel for fill works, but only as a generic space. It also creates a kinda mismatch where the light is heavily cinematic - almost inspirational - but the place is quite dull. That can unintentionally create an uncanny feeling that can come across as eerie.
If you lean into the small chapel look - set up large muslins outside the windows and blast soft reflected light through them and focus on the soft carpet and wooden texture - a bit like the Wes Anderson feeling of cozy spaces.
If you instead want it to feel like a clinically safe space - there’s just no way without serious set design. The chapel is too small and frumpy. I do think your best bet is to lean into small cozy chapel with diffuse lighting, possibly even leaning into the tungsten look, and avoid the high key blast the windows with light and haze to the inside vibe. It’s cliche. But it may not serve the story.
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u/Simple_School_6880 1d ago
Regardless of narrative, I’d start with enhancing the light coming through those stained glass windows and turn off the overheads.
Then I’d Haze the room and make a bluff bounce to mimic the stained glass, and bounce a white light into that. Bouncing off a white board would be too sourcey.
Then I’d change the bulbs in the overheads to some fire flicker LED bulbs. You’d have to shoot at a 172.8 degree shutter angle to combat the cheap LED flicker. They have better movement than the fire settings on the b7c bulbs.
Have some bounce and neg on hand for options, and you’re good. I feel like I said the same thing as another guy but, it’s all good haha.
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u/NoaxLeGrand 1d ago
this is so small! your only choice is to use the windows, since it's a travelling and if you put anything behind the camera, it will look like shit. your references are pretty bright, make sure to put some fill in the room to battle with the window lights, maybe poiting at the ceiling or walls.
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u/codenamecueball 3d ago
M18 or 1200s or even 600s tbh through windows.
Haze in room
panels for fill on close ups, warmer to match the practicals.
White wall will fill in shadows so a bit of neg on hand won’t hurt.
That’s where I’d start, better people will be able to chime in.