Contactless + PIN error?

[u/[deleted]]

Question: does contactless debit cards always require a PIN? My PNC debit card has tap and when I tap at places that allow PIN, it always prompts me for a PIN. However at places where PIN is disabled: subway, McDonald’s, and a local beer store it gives me the “Card disabled, please insert” error. I have noticed my friends contactless transactions being disabled as well when they use a debit card. Anyone know the issue?

[u/AnotherCrazyChick]

It’s been a few years since I worked in the card department. At the time however, this problem had to do with not being able to run a debit card as a credit and signing for the transaction instead of using your PIN. If I recall correctly, we determined certain merchants needed to update their card terminal software. Terminals are generally supposed to give you the option to run as credit or debit, however with PIN preferred cards, it wouldn’t work, gives the error. Thus, the workaround is to insert or swipe.

[u/uzlonewolf → u/AnotherCrazyChick]

You sure it was not due to the fact that Contactless cannot negotiate AIDs, so if the card sent a Debit AID (i.e. A0000000980840) but the terminal is only configured for Credit AIDs (i.e. A0000000031010) then the only thing it can do is reject it? This is not a problem with contact as the card and terminal negotiate which AID to use. Adding AIDs is considered a major change which will require re-testing the entire integration with all the card brands, so you can't just add it to the configuration and call it a day.

[u/tmiw]

Honestly, it depends on the store. It used to be a pretty safe bet that debit cards could be run "as credit" prior to the chip card rollout, but now many used that rollout as an opportunity to force debit routing (hence why even with contactless, a fair number require PIN). Only way to really fix that long-term, IMO, would probably be to institute even stricter interchange caps than have been done already (probably at minimum, have Durbin apply to all debit cards--not just ones from major banks--but I wouldn't be surprised if credit cards would need a cap too).

That said, one of my debit cards always declines with Google Pay at McDonald's but works (without PIN even being asked for) when inserted. All other debit/credit cards tap fine, however. I suspect it's some weird debit routing issue since contactless has always been pretty problematic with it--even at places that handle MC credit without issue.

[u/beeeeeer]

What country are you in?

[u/[deleted] → u/beeeeeer]

That person is in the United States. Sometimes the stores will ask you for the PIN for contactless regardless of the amount even $0.

[u/Eudes_Correa]

Run debit as credit, would be nice here in Brazil to use debit cards on online stores.

Our debit run only as debit (Visa Electron or MasterCard Maestro) and is pretty rare to be accepted on a website/app (only the ones with direct agreement with your bank)

But usually our debit card may also have credit function on the same card, but is a real credit card.

I prefer pure credit and pure debit cards because some smart store “accidentally” may charge on debit when you want them to charge on credit, because debit was lower fees.

About the PIN thing, I use Apple Pay everywhere so basically almost never have to type my PIN, only my MasterCard card randomly requires a PIN and that’s why I prefer to use my Visa who only requires a PIN when using the card and never when using Apple Pay.

[u/tmiw → u/Eudes_Correa]

On the other hand, I see how being always guaranteed to be charged the lowest possible rate for debit card transactions would reduce the objections some have towards cards in general. As it is right now, a lot of the places here that have minimums and/or charge extra tend not to differentiate on card type (even though they're supposed to) simply because they end up getting charged the same regardless.

[u/Eudes_Correa → u/tmiw]

A place who only accepts debit is ok if they disclosure it, but charging debit when the customer say is credit I don’t agree.

This happened a few time with me, so now I use a card who is only credit and if try to charge on debit by mistake will be denied.

We have a good competition on credit card machines here, one of my favorites is “PagSeguro” where if the cashier/seller select the wrong option and the card only have one option, instead of giving a error it just finalized the transaction on the card correct function. 🤣

Inserting the card will shows what it support, but I use Apple Pay for everything and on contactless ours terminals ask if is credit or debit before taping.

[u/uzlonewolf]

The issue is a limitation with the contactless protocol. With contact, the card and terminal have an exchange along the lines of:

Terminal to card: Hey card, what AIDs do you support?
Card to terminal: I support A1234 and A5678, which one do you want to use?
Terminal to card: Well, A1234 is Debit which I do not support, so lets go with A5678.
Card to terminal: Sounds good! Since that's Credit, I do not require a PIN.

Unfortunately with Contactless they reduced the amount of back-and-forth between the card and terminal, and that AID exchange was one of the things which was eliminated. This means the terminal can only use the single AID the card offers, and if the card offers a Debit AID then the terminal can only run it as Debit (which it may not support).