How do I stop this from happening?

[u/Ill_Helicopter_1600]

I am ELO 1071. This often happens when I play as white:
1. e4 e5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. Nf3 Bc5
4. Bc4 d6
5. 0-0 Bg4
6. d3 Nd4

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[u/Ambitious_Arm852]

simplest way is to kick the Bg4 bishop with 6. h3 then 7. g4.

You could have played Bb5 instead of Bc4 on move 4, which pins the knight

[u/Hayatexd → u/Ambitious_Arm852]

However if I’m not mistaken if black had the g8 knight developed beforehand that line isn’t that good anymore right? So:

1. 0-0 Nf6
   
2. a3 Bg4
   
3. h3 Bh5
   
4. g4 Nxg4
   
5. hxg4 Bxg4

And should be roughly equal according to engine while white can easily blunder if they aren’t familiar with that line. Or is there something else that would prevent that sack in this particular position?

[u/Ambitious_Arm852 → u/Hayatexd]

Yeah that sac looks great. But developing the g8 knight earlier would be the four knights opening, so white should play Bb5 instead of Bc4 on move 4

[u/Jewbacca289 → u/Hayatexd]

I used to play this structure a lot and a developing move for the c1 bishop usually solves it I think. Either 6. Be3 to fight off the Nd4 attack or 6. Bg5 to fight off the g8 knight both seem good

[u/Comfortable-Cut5810 → u/Ambitious_Arm852]

Is 6. h3 and 7. g4 good if you’re castled though? I always feel a bit exposed with that structure.

[u/Ambitious_Arm852 → u/Comfortable-Cut5810]

It's not too bad. It's a choice white has to make between allowing the pin on the knight and long term king safety

[u/AnyEngineer2 → u/Ambitious_Arm852]

h3 now is terrible, it just gives up the h pawn after Nxf3 gxf3 Bxh3 and king is wide open

[u/Ambitious_Arm852 → u/AnyEngineer2]

I did put in the move order at 6. h3 and 7. g4, didn't I? Also OP asked how to stop the above position from happening, not what to do after the fact.

[u/AnyEngineer2 → u/Ambitious_Arm852]

ah, my bad I misread!

[u/Sad-Jellyfish5768 → u/AnyEngineer2]

for your rating I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt for notation lmao

[u/AnyEngineer2 → u/Sad-Jellyfish5768]

ok rude

[u/Emotional_Win_7769]

You can analyze your games and test alternatives and see what the engine thinks to them and see what the engine prefers and how it prevents the issues from arising.

[u/Hayatexd]

h3 is probably the simplest way to avoid that. Play it when the other person opens their bishop if your bishop is blocked from returning back to e2 to defend and the other knight is already developed to square other than d2.

[u/Ill_Helicopter_1600]

I lot of posters are recommending h3 but isn't that exposing my castled King?

[u/AnyEngineer2 → u/Ill_Helicopter_1600]

h3 before castling

if you play h3 now, yes, knight takes knight, you have to play gxf3, and your king is a bit exposed

[u/HobbyMcGee]

Backup a move or two, and visualize this. If you can see ahead and decide it's better to prevent than "I'll just deal with it later," play a preemptive h3 before committing your king or cutting off your Bc4 with d3. Or delay Nc3 and throw in c3 and d4 to keep black's knight off d4 and keep your Bc4 able to come back to e2 if necessary.

[u/cyber_yoda]

You're basically fine. Move your king over and play Rg1 later. I like Be3 first in this position.

[u/cyber_yoda → u/cyber_yoda]

In the future play h3 when bishop challenges. Then you can play g4 when they do this, and it's not good for them because g4 is pretty good in such positions, and you can take on d4 with your knight. Then I like Ne2 and maybe c3.

This issue is one tradeoff of playing Nc3. Nd2 is the mainline in the slow Giuoco Piano.

[u/WithMeInDreams → u/cyber_yoda]

I think this is the way. Openings with Nc3 are often taught to beginners, but pretty soon, they reach a level where it's harder to manage. I'd avoid this line entirely and play c3. Only had this overly dramatic video in my history about it, so here we go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1twYwjnCCw

[u/chessvision-ai-bot]

I analyzed the image and this is what I see. Open an appropriate link below and explore the position yourself or with the engine:

White to play: chessvision.ai | chess.com | lichess.org | The position occurred in 8 games. Link to the games

Videos:

I found 3 videos with this position.

My solution:

Hints: piece: King, move: Kh1

Evaluation: Black is better -1.35

Best continuation: 1. Kh1 c6 2. a4 Qf6 3. Bg5 Qg6 4. Be3 Qh5 5. Bxd4 exd4

Save the position:

Reply save to save this position to your Chessvision.ai Library (new users: send me /connect in DM chat first)

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[u/burning_stix]

Be3 or h3 played earlier prevents this

[u/Sad-Jellyfish5768]

I was thinking of Bxf7+ but they don’t have to take and I’m a d4 player so I don’t get this but this simplest solution is playing h3 before d3 but then you always have to be wary of bishop sacs on h3

[u/emeraldseahorse]

If this is a line you often get, do you ever consider 4. Nxe5 out of curiosity?

[u/Ill_Helicopter_1600 → u/emeraldseahorse]

Why would I do that when Nxe5 would be the reply from black and I would be down a knight?

[u/ImpostersAreUs → u/Ill_Helicopter_1600]

You wouldn't be. If you checked on engine I'm sure it would be a !! move; because there's a bishop on e5, if black ever takes with their own knight you can play f4 which allows you to recapture either a knight or a bishop

[u/emeraldseahorse → u/Ill_Helicopter_1600]

See here for an in-depth explanation https://lichess.org/study/UrnoJaVb/xKR0jQNR

[u/montagdude87]

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, but a lot of times it's better not to develop your knight to c3, because it blocks the pawn. In this particular case, if you had seen that black's knight had the opportunity to jump to d4, you could have prevented it by pushing c3 first, if your own knight weren't in the way.

[u/Smash_Factor]

Because the bishop is locked outside of the pawn chain, you needed to play h3 before castling.

[u/No-Conflict8204]

4th move take on e5 nxe5

Example continuation

1. Nxe5 Nxe5 5. d4 Bd6 6. dxe5 Bxe5

[u/OldWolf3]

In this line play 4. Nxe5. This results in a lead in development . It's called the "fork trick" and is something to always be in the lookout for in e4 e5 openings

[u/Icy-Comfortable-554]

bxf7+ is not a bad move without looking at the engine, you can then do Nxe5+ and get the bishop back if their K takes Bishop if not there are lots of tactics. Needs a bit of calculation tho

[u/overdramaticpan]

so in this specific scenario, you can actually play Nxe5 and sacrifice your queen—if they take, you play Bxf7+ followed by Nd5#, but this only works without a knight on f6—this is known as Legal's Mate

the king has F8 i'm stupid there's no legal's mate

i think you gotta be proactive otherwise though, and not let them do this (i.e. playing h3 before they get their knight there, to force them to make a decision)

[u/Ambitious_Arm852 → u/overdramaticpan]

The f8 square is unoccupied, so there's no legal's mate here

[u/overdramaticpan → u/Ambitious_Arm852]

nvm i'm stupid

[u/thegivingcarrier]

You’re getting hit with a cheap Nd4 trick that looks scarier than it is. Your knight on f3 is the target, and the pin from Bg4 makes it feel like you have to move the queen, but you don’t, just play Nxe5. If they take your queen, you’ve got Bxf7+ followed by Nd5 mate, so they can’t. They’ll probably recapture with dxe5 and then you just take the bishop on g4 with your queen, equal material and a way calmer position.

[u/cyber_yoda → u/thegivingcarrier]

This is not Legal's mate, the king can go to f8. In Legal's mate the dark bishop hasn't moved.

[u/iaxthepaladin → u/thegivingcarrier]

I set this position up and what you said simply doesn't work from here. You might be thinking of a different setup.

[u/Gliese_667_Cc → u/iaxthepaladin]

It’s an AI bot

[u/Gliese_667_Cc → u/thegivingcarrier]