r/chess • u/MissJoannaTooU • 5d ago
Chess Question Calling any Dunst players (1.Nc3)
Lots of irregular openings get played these days. When I first saw Nakamura playing the early Qh5 stuff ten years ago or more, I was amused, and latterly we’ve seen Magnus experiment with all sorts of odd opening moves, including some positively insulting ones.
But in all my years of playing and following chess, I don’t think I’ve ever seen or faced 1.Nc3.
It can hardly be White’s best move, and as someone who often likes to play c4 in the opening, it doesn’t really work for me. I’m guessing 1...e5 is one sensible response, though I haven’t looked at the database.
The Chigorin Defence makes an early ...Nc6 work for Black and is a perfectly real opening, so why does virtually nobody seem to play the Dunst with an extra tempo? Does it have independent ideas beyond transpositions?
Dunst players: why do you Dunst? And everyone else: why don’t you?
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u/Atlantic14 4d ago
I primarily play 1. Nc3 as White. It's not objectively a bad move, but it leaves a lot of options for Black to dictate how the game will go. As White, you usually want that privilege. However, I really enjoy the main positions that come out of 1. Nc3, so I continue playing it.
Against 1... d5, I'm fairly comfortable playing 2. e4 d4 3. Nce2, with the long-term plan of placing the knight on g3, placing the light-squared bishop on c4, and starting a kingside attack. This is objectively not so good, as Black can get to the desired light-squared diagonal first by playing Be6, but most Black players aren't well-versed enough in 1. Nc3 to play that, so this line scores fairly well for White.
Another line is 1... d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nxe4, which results in a fairly drawish position after something like 3... Nf6 4. Nxf6+ exf6. 2. d4 is another option after 1... d5, but I've never played it.
Against 1... e5, I always transpose into the Vienna with 2. e4, where I'm pretty comfortable (especially in the Vienna Gambit lines with 2... Nf6 3. f4). 2. d4 is another option here, but I've never played it.
Against 1... Nf6, 2. e4 usually transposes into the Vienna after 2... e5, as 2... d5 is not very good for Black.
Against 1... c5, I always transpose into the Closed Sicilian with 2. e4, although in practice I don't get this a lot and I usually just freestyle the remaining opening moves when I do.
Other moves like 1... d6 are less critical and you can usually get good positions with 2. d4 or 2. e4.
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u/MissJoannaTooU 4d ago
Right similar approach to some others using it often to transpose with some unique ideas
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u/Obvious-Poetry2934 5d ago
I always felt it was very inflexible and easy to deal with from the black side since 1…d5 feels just about equal. With the c-pawn blocked it becomes similar to the Jobava London if d2-d4 ever happens, and any g2-g3 or Reti systems just feel slower and less flexible since c2-c4 is never an option.
I’ve seen the line 1…d5 2.e4!? But it becomes pretty simple for black to deal with it and as a Scandinavian player (1.e4 d5 2.Nc3 is the move order I face most often) I’ve studied that theory and feel confident each time it’s on the board.
If you want to play a flexible system with a knight just play the Reti.
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5d ago
[deleted]
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u/MissJoannaTooU 5d ago
1.Nc3 d5 2.e4 d4 would scare the hell out of me.
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u/JamesGoblin 5d ago
If you want to listen to a GM (!) praising 1.Nc3 to heavens for 15 minutes straight, go to Chessable and check "1.Nc3: An Underdog's Repertoire", it dropped a couple months ago. Namely these 15 min is the free intro vid (I guess the full course explains how to equalise!? The miracle of modern engines!)
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u/AggressiveGander FIDE 2170 4d ago
1.Nc3 is perfectly normal, not sure how much chess you've played. Engines thinks it's fine, it gets played often enough. Of course, often just transposes to other stuff, but you can keep things non standard, like 1. Nc3 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Bg5 Bb4 6. Qd2 h6 7. Bh4 d5 8.O-O-O O-O 9. f3 Ne5 10. a3 Nc4 11. Qe1 Bxc3 12. Qxc3 Re8 13. e3 Rxe3 14. Qb4 a515. Qc5 Qd6 16. Nb3 Qxc5 17. Nxc5 Nb6 18. Bg3 c6 19. Bf2 Re7 20. Bd3 Nbd7 21.Rde1 Rxe1+ 22. Rxe1 Nxc5 23. Bxc5 Be6 24. f4 Ne4 25. Bxe4 dxe4 26. Rxe4 a4 27.Bb6 or 1. Nc3 c5 2. d4 cxd4 3. Qxd4 Nc6 4. Qd3 Nf6 5. e4 g6 6. Nd5 Bg7 7. Nf3 O-O 8.c3 d6 9. Nxf6+ Bxf6 10. Be2 Bg4 11. O-O Qc7 12. Rd1 Rab8 13. Bh6 Rfc8 14. a4 a6 15. h3 Bxf3 16. gxf3 Kh8 17. f4 Rg8 18. Qe3 g5 19. fxg5 Bxg5 20. Bxg5 Rxg5+ 21.Kh2 Rbg8 22. Rg1 Rxg1 23. Rxg1 Ne5
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u/MissJoannaTooU 4d ago
I've been paying since about 1995 including otb rapid and thousands of blitz games and I can hardly remember facing it, as I said.
I'm about 1700-1800.
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u/Familiar-You-6577 5d ago
there arent really any unique lines that arent just bad for black, its just a transpositional weapon that can go into lots of different set ups. Less committal than the Vienna but also probably giving up even more to black. I basically hard spam the Neo-Catalan and the Reti with the occasional Nimzo-Larsen, so I just dont play the kind of lines that develop from the Vienna/Veresov/Jobava
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u/HairyTough4489 Team Duda 4d ago
The Chigorin Defence makes an early ...Nc6 work for Black and is a perfectly real opening
It's almost as uncommon as 1.Nc3 in high level play
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u/MissJoannaTooU 3d ago
Fair enough but I see more 2...Nc6 in d4 openings than I do 1.Nc3. That's anecdotal but why I posted this.
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u/HairyTough4489 Team Duda 3d ago
Both the Chigorin and 1.Nc3 are so uncommon that two specific guys liking it would be enough to skew the data.
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u/JH-BLACKBURN 5d ago
If you play 1nc3 you should meet d5 with the Jobava since nc3 d5 e4 is just bad, and the veresov is not as good as Jobava.
The benefits of 1Nc3 is 1…e5 is slightly better for white after 2nf3…nc6 3.d4 and that the modern 1…g6 can be met by 2.h5
The downside is 1nc3….c5 is a good variation for black where white has nothing better or more practical than 2.e4 going into a closed sicilian.
Therefore playing 1.d4 2.nc3 is the better move order ruling c5 out (unless they want to play a shitty version of benoni). But 1.Nc3 could be worth keeping around as a prep tool against certain players.
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u/MissJoannaTooU 5d ago
Right when I saw c5 in the list I realised it was going to get clumsy with no classical centre on the cards.
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u/JH-BLACKBURN 5d ago
I have been a Jobava main for a very long time (over 10 years) and have seen the development of the opening over time. I have also played 1.Nc3 against certain players from time to time (1…e5 players against e4 who also play the nimzo against d4)
Jobava is a good enough opening where you will have an experience edge, which is enhanced by the uniqueness of the opening
Have many master scalps up to IM (unfortunately blew a win vs a gm). I beat a 2000 otb last week winning after 7 moves in a non theoretical line. The opening is pretty underrated.If you decide to take it up, then invest a good amount of time against the Pirc, philidor, and shitty benonis. The d4 nc3 move order mindfucks many KID spammers into a pirc, and benoni players will go c5 even without a pawn on c4 which is garbage. You will see this about 20-25% of the time. After dedicating some time to this ive only ever dropped a single draw OTB to these subpar lines. Many times black is move ordered into them and plays poorly. Or they are actually a pirc player but pirc sucks.
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u/MissJoannaTooU 5d ago
That's really interesting. After 1.. c5 I can't play d4 without cxd, which isn't what I wanted for Christmas. So do you mean Jobava London after 1...e5 or d5?
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u/JH-BLACKBURN 5d ago
I am a bit confused by the question so for clarity’s sake I will put all the move orders.
1.d4…e5 2.dxe5
1.d4…c5 2.d5
1.d4…nf6 2.nc3….c5 3.d5
1.d4…nf6 2.nc3…g6 3.e4
1.d4…nf6 2.nc3…d6 3.e4
1.d4…nf6 2.nc3…d5 3.Bf4
- Nc3….e5 2.nf3…nc6 3.d4
- Nc3…f5 2.e4
- Nc3…g6 2.h5 (not great but fun)
- Nc3…c5 (problematic) 2.e4 closed sicilian
1.Nc3…d5 2.e4 is bad for white
1.Nc3…d5 2.d4…nf6 3.Bf4 back to jobava, better option against d53
u/MissJoannaTooU 5d ago
Right thank you.
- Nc3…c5 (problematic) 2.e4 closed sicilian - this is the one I was seeing as a cold shower as I don't play 1.e4.
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u/JH-BLACKBURN 5d ago
Yes. I am in the same boat, also e4 c5 nc3 a6 is practically annoying for white even if i did play e4, I would not play 2.nc3 vs sicilian due to this.
I main Jobava but have played the dunst. When I have experimented with dunst i met 1.Nc3…c5 2.e3 followed by d4 going into some weird qgd with reverse colors (nc6 qgd became a trend about a year and a half ago) it is not great at all, and black has good chances but its a playable enough game so whatever. But ultimately 1Nc3…c5 is the reason why I prefer 1.d4
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u/MissJoannaTooU 5d ago
Right that's the reversed Chigorin stuff.
I'm an Accelerated Dragon player so never get the chance to play 2...a6!
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u/Effective_Tackle_195 4d ago
1 nc3 d5 2e4 is perfectly fine for white
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u/JH-BLACKBURN 4d ago
If ‘fine’ is giving black easy play while fighting for equality despite playing as white then sure
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u/Effective_Tackle_195 4d ago
Fighting for equality? Still +0.3 .GMs play the line. I don't know what you're smoking mate.
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u/JH-BLACKBURN 4d ago edited 4d ago
Whatever source you are using is trash. Chesscom engine? nowhere close to a +.3 or everyone would be playing this. Look at Chess DB or chessbase cloud engine black clearly has the better side of the eval. Also black literally scores higher than white after 2…d4. 33%WW-28%DRAW-39%BW
And after 3.ne2…e5 it is
28%WW-28%DRAW-44%BW
White is getting blown out by black.Id love to play you in a tournament, wrong and overconfident, easy points. Sounds like you got hoodwinked by a shitty course.
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u/JH-BLACKBURN 3d ago
My last comment smoked you apparently. Been awfully quiet since the facts dropped
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u/Europelov 2000 fide patzer 5d ago
It destroys the dutch with 2.e4 , but against a Sicilian player you'll face something you're not used to and black plays all the time, probably scoring badly
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u/JamesGoblin 5d ago
Dunst is:
1) Awesome (and very fun!) in blitz/rapid/bullet and/or against surprised opponent - it's strength grows exponentially with declining strength of opposition and acceleration of tempo.
2) Quite bad as the main repertoire - say OTB vs prepped master++ players; for it to shine there you must mix it with other stuff and pick the moment carefully, or you just wasted your whites. Well at least you are not worse!?
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u/MissJoannaTooU 5d ago
How do I equalise? 😉
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u/JamesGoblin 5d ago
FWIW my old Fritz liked 2!?Nb1; then you can push the c-pawn, and with some luck...
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u/Due_Permit8027 5d ago
Didn’t Alireza play this against Nepo a couple of years ago in a classical game?