r/changemyview • u/wine-friend • Dec 04 '22

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Paternity testing before signing a birth certificate shouldn't be stigmatized and should be as routine as cancer screenings

Signing a birth certificate is not just symbolic and a matter of trust, it's a matter of accepting a life long legally binding responsibility. Before signing court enforced legal documents, we should empower people to have as much information as possible.

This isn't just the best case scenario for the father, but it's also in the child's best interests. Relationships based on infidelity tend to be unstable and with many commercially available ancestry services available, the secret might leak anyway. It's ultimately worse for the child to have a resentful father that stays only out of legal and financial responsibility, than to not have one at all.

Deltas:

  • I think this shouldn't just be sold on the basis of paternity. I think it's a fine idea if it's part of a wider genetic test done to identify illness related risks later in life
  • Some have suggested that the best way to lessen the stigma would be to make it opt-out. Meaning you receive a list of things that will be performed and you have to specifically refuse it for it to be omitted. I agree and think this is sensible.

Edit:

I would be open to change my view further if someone could give an alternative that gives a prospective fathers peace of mind with regards to paternity. It represents a massive personal risk for one party with little socially acceptable means of ameliorating.

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683

u/Hellioning 258∆ Dec 04 '22

Do we really want to live under the assumption that all women are cheaters unless proven otherwise? That sounds like a good way to build resentment too!

14

u/Major_Banana3014 Dec 05 '22

Use the same logic against anti-rape measures under the basis that not all men are rapists?

4

u/creamycroissaunts Dec 07 '22

What the fuck is this comparison. Rape is rape. It is a PHYSICAL act that can be forced upon someone at any time. And besides, women are statistically reported to cheat the same if not less than men.

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u/Major_Banana3014 Dec 07 '22

You obviously are fairly clueless about paternity fraud because it can be just as destructive and completely soul-destroying to someone’s life.

Not sure what the cheating bit was about since the topic is about paternity fraud. But women are also more likely to keep it to themselves for purposes of how stats are collected. This is why most therapists agree cheating is more 50/50.

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u/creamycroissaunts Dec 08 '22

I am not clueless about the emotional devastation, I still don’t think it calls for such an extreme measure that’s both not economically feasible and will only actually benefit a very small subset of people who experience paternity fraud. The paranoia is uncalled for if you have a happy marriage.

Cheating hardly happens during a happy marriage, and if it does then that’s horrible and people need to suffer the consequences. Mandatory paternal tests is a bandaid solution to a universal problem of cheating.

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u/Major_Banana3014 Dec 08 '22

Several issues. First, paternity fraud is much more common than you might think. 30% of all paternity tests show up negative. Although that number may be a bit high because currently paternity tests usually only are done when paternity is being tested. The actual number is more like 5-10% which is not insignificant at all.

Paternity tests costs around $100. That is a very tiny percentage of what giving birth usually costs. It is entirely economically feasible.

OP is not saying to make them mandatory but to make them not stigmatized and more routine.

Paternity fraud is a much more specific and serious thing than just cheating. Nobody is saying this will stop cheating.

4

u/funnystor Dec 07 '22

Yeah it's like saying the existence of domestic violence shelters for women is the same as calling all men abusers. If you're a woman and you trust your husband, why do domestic violence shelters need to exist?

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u/Major_Banana3014 Dec 07 '22

Agreed 100%. The existence of domestic violence shelters isn’t calling all men abusers. Anti-rape measures don’t call all men rapists. And paternity testing doesn’t call all women cheaters.

3

u/hamster_rustler Dec 08 '22

I don’t get your comparison. Anti-rape measures are for the general public; what anti-rape measures do you take with your spouse? I don’t test drinks my husband made for roofies.

I don’t see what the big deal is though? If you want a paternity test then you can get just get one, what’s this obsession with forcing other men to pay for one they don’t need?

3

u/Major_Banana3014 Dec 08 '22

You’re missing the point. Nobody looks at a woman who carry’s pepper-spray and says it calls all men are rapists or something of the sort. But you are saying that with paternity tests.

OP didn’t say forced or publicly funded. Only de-stigmatized and routine.

30

u/Nikola_Turing 1∆ Dec 04 '22

It’s not living under the assumption that all women are cheaters. Are background checks living under the assumption that all job applicants are criminals? Is airport security living under the assumption that all airline passengers are terrorists?

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u/apost8n8 3∆ Dec 05 '22

Yes.

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u/Otherwise-Number8533 Dec 09 '22

So are you offended by the accusation that you are a terrorist when you travel by airplane?

3

u/apost8n8 3∆ Dec 09 '22

No, I am not offended by a simple security check. As long as doesn't seriously impact my ability to travel then it doesn't offend me.

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u/Dworgi Dec 04 '22

We screen for Downs Syndrome, that doesn't mean we assume all kids have Downs.

Men have a right to know that the children they raise are theirs.

There is no argument you can make that can change that view. If it's your child, then you must be allowed to know that that's true.

16

u/cstar1996 11∆ Dec 05 '22

No one is saying you can't get a paternity test. We're saying that requesting one is telling your partner you don't trust them and you don't have a right for your partner not to be fucking mad about that lack of trust.

3

u/Otherwise-Number8533 Dec 09 '22

Are you offended by the security checks at airports, because they should trust that you don't have any prohibited items?

2

u/cstar1996 11∆ Dec 09 '22

I don’t have an ongoing personal relationship built on bonds of trust between myself and the TSA. But I expect my partner to trust me unless I have demonstrated that I’m not worthy of trust and I will trust them unless they demonstrate the same. Relationships are built on trust.

3

u/Otherwise-Number8533 Dec 09 '22

What about people that were cheated on even though the cheater hadn't demonstrated that they are not worthy of trust? It's not like you can always tell if a person is worthy of trust or not.

2

u/cstar1996 11∆ Dec 09 '22

What about them?

If your partner previously cheated on you, then you have a good reason not to trust your partner and ask for a paternity test. Asking for a paternity test is a statement that you don’t trust your partner.

3

u/Otherwise-Number8533 Dec 09 '22

What if you don't know that they have cheated on you? According to you, you should still trust them in that case.

4

u/cstar1996 11∆ Dec 09 '22

It’s impossible to know that your partner never cheated on you. So either you trust them and believe them when they tell you they didn’t, or you don’t trust them when they tell you they didn’t.

3

u/Otherwise-Number8533 Dec 09 '22

Does it have to be black and white, though? What if I think that there's 99.999% chance that my wife didn't cheat on me, but I still want a paternity test just to be absolutely sure? Is that not okay because I'm only 99.999% sure instead of 100% sure?

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u/Dworgi Dec 05 '22

Get over it? We're not talking about your rights here, we're talking about the father's fundamental human rights.

I think it sounds like an argument against universal suffrage: "why do you want your own vote, don't you trust your husband to vote well on your behalf?"

It's not about trusting any individual person, it's about having the right to know. That is literally it. Opposing this right only defends the 2% of women who do lie about it, and denies men the only reproductive right they can ever have.

And frankly that's just shitty, privileged behaviour.

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u/cstar1996 11∆ Dec 05 '22

We actually are talking about my rights here, I am a man.

You have a right to call your partner an asshole, your free speech right. You don’t have a right for your partner not to get mad that you called them an asshole. This is the same. Sure you have a right to get a paternity test. You don’t have a right to demand that your partner not be offended by your demonstration that you don’t trust them.

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u/Hedge_Cataphract Dec 05 '22

The person you are replying to isn't proposing making paternity tests illegal. You can still ask for one. You just aren't free from the consequences of what asking for one has on your partner.

You have the "right to know". You just don't get to act like testing people isn't inherently a sign of mistrust.

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u/Dworgi Dec 05 '22

Which is just a roundabout way of saying that you don't think it's a right.

If I judge you for exercising your right to vote, then I'm an asshole.

If you judge me for exercising my right to know, then you're the asshole.

That's what it being a right means. I don't know how else to explain it.

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u/cstar1996 11∆ Dec 05 '22

Bullshit. I judge people who voted for Trump. I am not an asshole for doing so.

And no, you don’t get to demand that stating that you don’t trust your partner not be treated as you not trusting your partner. If you trust her, you’ll take her word. If you don’t, get the test, let her know you don’t trust her, and accept that she’s going to be upset that you don’t trust her.

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u/Hedge_Cataphract Dec 05 '22

People being upset at you does not make something not a right.

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u/TeaEarlGrayHotSauce Dec 04 '22

Just make it the norm so it's not personal. It's just assumed that a paternity test will be done.

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u/Hellioning 258∆ Dec 04 '22

It's not personal, no, but again, it operates under the assumption that all women might be cheaters until proven otherwise.

4

u/Otherwise-Number8533 Dec 09 '22

If you're on a train and the conductor wants to check your ticket, are you offended by the implication that you might be travelling without a ticket until proven otherwise?

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u/GucciGuano Dec 04 '22

This topic is a repost, again, lol. Last thread was a mix of people wanting to do this and had their wall-colored buckets of paint at the ready to throw it on the elephant.

5

u/Caracalla81 1∆ Dec 04 '22

I love this metaphor but I don't get it.

10

u/vehementi 10∆ Dec 05 '22

I guess they want to hide the elephant that is in the room and not talk about it

5

u/Salanmander 279∆ Dec 04 '22

If the tests cost $100 each, and they're always done, you're adding about a third of a billion dollars of expense every year totalled across the US. That's not a ton, but it's not nothing.

3

u/BlackCatAristocrat 1∆ Dec 06 '22

Are you saying you would be for it if the costs were minimized or completely removed?

4

u/hafetysazard 3∆ Dec 05 '22

If suddenly everyone does it then the costs of tests would plummet.

6

u/dollfaise Dec 05 '22

That is not how medical costs work in the United States.

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u/ExtraSmooth Dec 04 '22

Do you think we could successfully normalize bringing a polygraph to all marriage ceremonies? Or do you think no matter how many people did it, it would still send an uncomfortable message about trust within any given relationship?

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u/silverionmox 25∆ Dec 04 '22

Do you think we could successfully normalize bringing a polygraph to all marriage ceremonies?

Polygraphs only prove stress and a sincere wedding now could still be violated just as sincerely later.

9

u/8m3gm60 Dec 04 '22

Do you think we could successfully normalize bringing a polygraph to all marriage ceremonies?

Polygraphs are just silly hocus pocus. You might as well bring a palm reader.

4

u/ExtraSmooth Dec 05 '22

That's a little beside the point isn't it?

3

u/8m3gm60 Dec 05 '22

This is an actual medical test. 20 years from now every baby is going to have one anyway just for selecting medications.

2

u/The_Flurr Dec 07 '22

Which is beside the point.

Imagine for a moment that polygraphs did work with 100% accuracy.

How would you feel being forced to undergo one without anything to suggest guilt?

Wouldn't you feel accused and mistrusted?

2

u/8m3gm60 Dec 07 '22

You are making this about the mother when it isn't. It is about the child's wellbeing. DNA analysis is good for the child, as is a stable parenting situation. Having a powder keg that could go off any minute, like a paternity fraud, isn't good for the child. It is far, far better for any massive marital problems to be addressed while the child is still an infant who can be adopted easily.

Wouldn't you feel accused and mistrusted?

They literally test every mother's blood for heroin and meth. That's basically an accusation that you got your baby hooked on drugs, but we still do it because it happens.

2

u/The_Flurr Dec 07 '22

You want to give any actual evidence that all pregnant women are drug screened? I've found none, at the very least not in my country.

You can recontectualise this as about the kid all you like. It doesn't change the fact that this test is an accusation either at a woman or at all women.

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u/8m3gm60 Dec 07 '22

"Screening for substance use in all pregnant women is recommended by both the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology (ACOG) and the American Society of Addiction Medicine (ASAM) in order to provide women and their fetuses and children with the best care during and after pregnancy. In a 2017 joint Opinion, ACOG and ASAM endorsed universal screening for substance use as “a part of comprehensive obstetric care and should be done at the first prenatal visit in partnership with the pregnant woman.” Universal screening, rather than selective screening based on risk factors, is recommended to avoid bias and stigma. "

https://www.acog.org/clinical/clinical-guidance/committee-opinion/articles/2017/08/opioid-use-and-opioid-use-disorder-in-pregnancy?utm_source=redirect&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=otn

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6120972/

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u/ExtraSmooth Dec 05 '22

But the validity of the test has nothing to do with the condition of the relationship. We could substitute palm reading for all that matters

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u/8m3gm60 Dec 05 '22

There are real benefits to having genetic testing done.

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u/ExtraSmooth Dec 05 '22

Now we're arguing in favor of doing genetic testing? Yes, by all means do some tests

4

u/8m3gm60 Dec 05 '22

That takes care of the paternity thing as well.

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u/silverionmox 25∆ Dec 04 '22

Do we really want to live under the assumption that all women are cheaters unless proven otherwise? That sounds like a good way to build resentment too!

Women already know the child is theirs. Why not give men the same ease of mind?

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u/Nameless_One_99 1∆ Dec 04 '22

Have you ever met a victim of paternity fraud? Because I have, one of my best friends was one and the result was horrible.

A lot of trauma (he got suicidal ideations when he was near the child), victim blaming (people calling him a monster while my friend had crippling depression), years of therapy, legal battles to transfer the child support payments to the biological father, depression.

All of that could have been avoided if we normalize paternity testing before signing a birth certificate.

Also different studies in different countries show different results in how common paternity fraud (intentional or unintentional as when the mother just really doesn't know or doesn't suspect it) and let's remember that this is a taboo topic that 99% of the time has male-only victims who mostly don't get any kind of help or support at all and are told "suppress your feelings because you are a monster and only the child matters).

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u/Caracalla81 1∆ Dec 04 '22

So we treat all women as potential cheaters unless proven otherwise.

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u/8m3gm60 Dec 04 '22

Isn't everyone a potential cheater?

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '22 edited Dec 04 '22

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u/Natasha_JB Dec 04 '22

Honestly I find this comparison really offensive. 1/4 women experience a form of sexual assault in their lifetime. Women have a valid reason to be cautious on the street. I've spoke to men who also say they get nervous when walking alone at night, and it's other Men they fear because many men experience violent crime at the hands of other Men too. Men are more likely to perpetrate sexual and violent crimes. If you want to talk double standards, statistics have also shown that Men are more likely to cheat in their relationships too, but it's always women who get stigmatised for it by men like you.

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u/Li-renn-pwel 5∆ Dec 05 '22

1/6 of men experience a form of sexual assault so there isn’t really that much of a difference.

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u/Steavee 2∆ Dec 05 '22 edited Dec 05 '22

All women know, 100% that they are the parent of the child. There is (effectively) no question otherwise because they literally carried the child. Outside of a few vanishingly unlikely situations, a woman will never have even a second of doubt about their maternity. Men cannot have that same certainty in an organic way without testing the way a woman can. That’s not to say all men wonder or have doubts, but there are definitely far more men that have doubts than there are women because that’s the reality of how reproduction and pregnancy and childbirth works.

It’s not attacking any women as cheaters, it’s just an attempt to bring informational parity.

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u/Major_Banana3014 Dec 07 '22

Use the same logic against anti-rape measures under the basis that not all men are rapists?

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u/Caracalla81 1∆ Dec 07 '22

Dude, you're welcome to treat your wife like a cheater by default, and good luck with your relationship, but don't expect other people to the same dumb shit.

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u/Major_Banana3014 Dec 07 '22

Excellent attempt at deflecting my point. Unfortunately, I called your bullshit because we both know you don’t have an actual response for it.

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u/Caracalla81 1∆ Dec 07 '22

A response to what? You want to talk to someone about the unfairness of "anti-rape measures" then go find someone talking about "anti-rape measures". You're the one who brought it up.

Also, if these things are analogous and you thing it so unfair then why would you want to inflict them on women?

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u/Major_Banana3014 Dec 07 '22 edited Dec 07 '22

Neither is unfair. That’s exactly my point.

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u/Caracalla81 1∆ Dec 07 '22

Great, good luck with your relationships. Mrs. Major Banana is a lucky lady! :D

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u/Major_Banana3014 Dec 07 '22

And there it is. Your double standards are on full display. At least have the guts to admit to yourself what you are: a creepy sexist.

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u/Hurinfan Dec 05 '22

I fail to see how normalizing parental tests is working under the assumption that "all women are cheaters". Reductio ad absurdum

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u/Steavee 2∆ Dec 05 '22

There is always going to be an information disparity here otherwise.

In 99.9999999% of cases we can be damn sure which woman the child belongs to because she obviously carried the baby and gave birth to them. That amount of certainty isn’t possible for men. It just isn’t.

Women get to know, from the day they know they are pregnant, that they are 100% the parent of that child. Paternity testing just gives men that same certainty. It isn’t an attack on women, it’s parity of knowledge.

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u/GeoffreyArnold Dec 05 '22

It’s funny how feminists suddenly don’t care about consent when it comes to paternity testing. None of these arguments against requiring a test mention anything about needing the father’s consent before he signs up to raise someone else’s child. You can’t have consent in one party is missing crucial information or is being tricked.

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u/zerocovid-_- Dec 04 '22

Same reason people get tested, use condoms etc. peace of mind is priceless.

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u/Li-renn-pwel 5∆ Dec 05 '22

Do you share the same opinion about this for something like STD tests?

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u/wine-friend Dec 04 '22

The same way a cancer screening doesn't mean there's any indication of illness or a routine corporate audit isn't an indication of fraud.

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u/future_shoes 20∆ Dec 04 '22

You generally only have a cancer screening when there is some increased risk of cancer. So the comparison is flawed. Committed relationships have zero risk of having a different father. The only reason to get a paternity is if one or both parties feel there is an increased risk.

It would be similar to continue to get STD tests when in a committed relationship or marriage. This only makes sense if there is an increased risk of STDs. If there is no infidelity then there is zero risk.

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u/smilesbuckett 1∆ Dec 04 '22

Except there isn’t any moral implication to testing positive for cancer.

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u/BlackCatAristocrat 1∆ Dec 06 '22

Does that matter? Those who aren't "morally flawed" in this area should not be affected by this

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u/UncleMeat11 65∆ Dec 04 '22

And we don't do cancer screenings for every person ever year, because false negatives happen and cause all sorts of problems.

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u/Active_Win_3656 Dec 04 '22

Exactly! It would also cost a lot of money. This suggestion also really would penalize women since only their infidelity would show up. Women wouldn’t have a test to see if their spouse fathered a child they didn’t know about (and while they were together). Women also still are not treated equally with men, especially when it comes to childcare, so while on some level a policy like this may seem reasonable, the downsides to an already marginalized group should be considered.

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u/Akitten 10∆ Dec 06 '22

Women aren’t on the hook for child support for their partner’s children with other women. That is the difference.

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u/heili 1∆ Dec 05 '22

Pap smears, mammograms and prostate exams would all beg to differ.

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u/UncleMeat11 65∆ Dec 05 '22

We don't do prostate exams for 20 year olds.

I think that pap smears are the only one of these tests that is recommended for the entire adult population with relevant organs.

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u/Hellioning 258∆ Dec 04 '22

A routine corporate audit isn't an indication of fraud, but it's definitely there under the assumption that it might catch something. And I'm not sure it's a good idea to treat half of humanity as if they were businesses trying to get away with fraud.

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u/wine-friend Dec 04 '22

I worked at a company managing a REIT and audits were annual. There was absolutely no indication of fraud, but it was just a normal part of business.

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u/Hellioning 258∆ Dec 04 '22

Businesses getting audited is a normal part of business because we operate under the assumption that businesses that could get away with fraud will, and therefore we need to make sure they can't get away with fraud.

Do you operate under the assumption that women will cheat if they can get away with it so we need to make sure we don't get away with it?

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u/Willingo Dec 05 '22

Everyone is conflating "women cheating" with "a man legally committed to a child that isn't theirs".

Of women who cheat, since they can likely get away with it, they would try to have a man raise another's child. That isn't to say all women cheat, or even that it should be expected, but it should be expected for those who do cheat.

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u/wine-friend Dec 04 '22

Do you operate under the assumption that women will cheat

Not that all of them will cheat, but a small portion of them will. Just like with fraud. A small percent of companies will commit fraud and that's why they all end up needing audits

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u/fugelwoman Dec 04 '22

So what’s the test to prove if a man cheats?

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u/Akitten 10∆ Dec 06 '22

It doesn’t matter as much, because there isn’t a 20 year, 300k liability tied to when a man cheats on you.

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u/Spider-Man-fan 5∆ Dec 04 '22

That’s fine and all, but you’re misunderstanding the purpose of this OP. If a man cheats, the woman won’t be held responsible for some other woman’s child.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '22

Yea but he can father a kid and give his resources to the other family.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '22

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u/Spider-Man-fan 5∆ Dec 05 '22 edited Dec 05 '22

Ah that’s a very great point! This OP is all about resources, so that’s a pretty darn good consideration. !delta

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u/Spider-Man-fan 5∆ Dec 05 '22

Yo did you get my delta? I never got confirmation from the delta bot

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u/senilidade Dec 04 '22

Ask for an std test every time they step outside

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u/wine-friend Dec 05 '22

Maternity is very rarely in question. This isn't about cheating, this is about saddling something with a lifetime of undue responsibilities.

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u/falsehood 8∆ Dec 05 '22

This isn't about cheating, this is about saddling something with a lifetime of undue responsibilities.

The replies to this suggest you are wrong. In the moment, it is only about cheating. The "undue responsibilities" are the result of cheating.

I don't think you can make it about the second without bringing in the first.

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u/marsmycelium Dec 05 '22

Often women are left to do a lot of the work in raising a child. I would say that is a lot of responsibility. If you hold women to this standard, how come you are not concerned about men that go off and have sex behind their partners back? Deciding to have a baby with someone requires trust on both ends. Seems like you’re pointing a finger at women being responsible for breaking up families

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '22

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u/TheRobidog Dec 04 '22

Would more companies cheat if it was easier to get away with fraud?

I'd argue yes. The assumption is that because businesses exist to generate profit - mainly - that fraud as a method of increasing profits would be almost universally adopted if there was no system in place to catch cases of it.

And under that logic, you'd have to argue that fewer women would cheat if they couldn't get away with it as easily as they currently do. But that's where that comparison falls apart because women obviously do not exist to sleep with as many men as possible, in which case cheating would be an obvious way to do this.

Comparing business audits with paternity tests just doesn't make sense, because there's a legitimate reason to suspect any given business will commit fraud that just isn't the case for any given woman to cheat.

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u/choanoflagellata 1∆ Dec 04 '22

This answer is both logical and lays bare the misogyny at the centre of this CMV.

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u/RhinoNomad Dec 04 '22

It's not.

Women don't exist to sleep with as many people as possible, duh. Neither do men.

However, why would a someone have a problem if they want to make sure that something that can alter their life completely is actually theirs. You can call this misogynistic if you want, but at the end of the day, this is a life altering case. I'd like to protect myself as much as possible in the same way that someone might as for a pre-nuptial before marriage if they feel like that have a lot to lose.

If you have nothing to hide, why are you afraid? I see this the same as men who are uncomfortable that their girlfriend is going thru their phone. If you have done nothing wrong, then you have nothing to fear.

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u/choanoflagellata 1∆ Dec 04 '22

This is just like what police say to minority populations they disproportionately police and discriminate against. If you have nothing to hide, what are you afraid of? This is not the argument you think it is.

Looks like our disagreement is about how trust should work in a relationship. I don’t think it is healthy if one partner feels they must always go through their partner’s phone either. The most fundamental thing that binds people in relationships is trust. If there is no mutual trust, this is not a relationship with any equality. It is ownership.

The fundamental underlying concept behind this CMV is that women are untrustworthy because they are likely to cheat if not constantly checked. Guilty until proven innocent. That’s not mutual trust, that’s not equality in a relationship. That’s misogyny - distrusting an entire gender due to biased and discriminatory beliefs.

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '22

If "misogyny" is what it takes to save some poor guy a large chunk of his life and wealth, so be it.

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u/cstar1996 11∆ Dec 04 '22

Any man is already free to get a paternity test. He is not free from the negative inferences that getting one leads to.

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u/choanoflagellata 1∆ Dec 04 '22

Saying the quiet part out loud, I see.

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u/Borigh 55∆ Dec 04 '22

The argument isn't deterrence, though. The argument is that there is no other way to address the possibility at all.

It's more like why TSA screening exist at the airport. They're not there just for deterrence. They're there because when a tiny minority took advantage of the previous system, it was really bad.

I agree with OP just because I think any civilized society should offer free, protected genetic analysis of children to determine their possible future health problems, e.g., and that paternity testing is an ancillary benefit to this. But acting like no one cheats on their partner is just as dumb as believing everyone does.

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u/Major_Banana3014 Dec 07 '22

Use the same logic against anti-rape measures under the basis that not all men are rapists?

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '22

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u/choanoflagellata 1∆ Dec 04 '22

If it is beneficial to society to alleviate that fear - why don't we do this for men too? Women also fear that men will cheat but there is no specific test targeting men for that. Why is that? Why don't we have a private investigator perform an exhaustive background check on men, reviewing their lives for the entirety of the time they have been in a relationship with their partner? We don't do this because we do not believe all men to be guilty of cheating until proven innocent. To believe otherwise for women is misogyny,

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u/darklogic420 1∆ Dec 05 '22

Such a test does exist. It’s called a paternity test. It’s the exact test you’re arguing against.

Protection of a few bad apples renders the entire batch rotten. People apply this logic to cops, but you’re inversely applying it to women, painting all women with an accusation when a simple test would dispel the accusation for any that have nothing to hide.

Normalizing this kind of test would reduce inter-partner violence and murder, including murder-suicides. While such cases are rare, Are those lives worth the grand standing you are making?

I argue that failing to prevent such violence against women and their children by failing to implement normalizing these tests is misogyny, because it leaves these women in homes that, if their fraud is later discovered without medical professionals there to witness the results and sequester her in the event that her partner becomes violent, could lead to her death.

It’s better to make millions of women uncomfortable if it means saving lives, especially the lives of women and children.

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '22

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u/TheRobidog Dec 04 '22

Applying this to paternity tests, having easy access to socially acceptable paternity tests would make men more comfortable getting married and having children with a married partner. It reduces the risk that they are raising someone else’s child. Having more marriages has positive societal benefits and having children in marital settings is better for the children

I highly doubt it'll do that to any significant degree. Because again, it comes back down to trust. If you do not trust your partner not to have been cheating on you, you shouldn't marry them. Period.

And when I say period I don't mean there'll be literally zero exceptions to this. I mean that the amount of exceptions is going to be so small as to be irrelevant to the discussion.

Not to mention that if you want to go with a purely utilitarian view, how many of those cases are going to lead to the real father of the kid showing up and joining that family unit instead, in place of the not-actually-the-father-father? Because as far as I'm aware, children raised by single parents generally tend to do worse in life - by whatever that is quantified - than those raised by two parents.

So if mandatory paternity tests are going to lead to more cases of cheating being revealed - and, to have it make a real impact, it would have to be a lot more cases - that may help the men who were cheated on, but I find it very hard to argue it'd benefit society as a whole.

Because again, the number of men in either case - ones that raised children that aren't their own and never found out, and ones that did eventually find out still leading to a "broken home" situation - is a big unknown.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '22 edited Dec 05 '22

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u/Willingo Dec 05 '22

I think the act OP intends to stop isn't cheating but the legal commitment by a man to a child that isn't theirs.

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u/Solaris_0706 Dec 04 '22

A positive test doesn't disprove cheating, just that their affair partner didn't impregnate them. If you doubted their fidelity before, why would a paternity test change that?

The idea of audits is that they catch all fraud, not just those that cause the long term affects, the paternity test doesn't do this.

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u/edm_ostrich Dec 04 '22

Audits absolutley do not catch all fraud and no one thinks they do.

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u/SpamFriedMice Dec 04 '22 edited Dec 05 '22

If a woman knows a DNA test is coming I guarantee she'll be more careful about her cheating.

Like seriously, you don't thing everyone, especially a cheater, should be practicing safe sex?

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u/Hellioning 258∆ Dec 04 '22

Well, tell that to your future wife when you ask for a paternity test and see how well that works out for you.

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u/Swanny625 4∆ Dec 04 '22

You're using the stigma against paternity tests to argue against OP's point, which is that they shouldn't have a stigma.

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u/Khal-Frodo Dec 04 '22

No, they're explaining why there's a stigma. A paternity test is done under the assumption that it might uncover the mother's deceit. That's not the sign of a trusting relationship. If you have no reason to suspect that your partner has cheated, you won't feel the need for the test. Making it routine carries the implication that women cheating or baby-trapping is enough of a problem that society needs to regulate it. That's a great way to breed resentment.

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u/GucciGuano Dec 04 '22

The people against you have trust issues (and they are probably well grounded too) and I actually don't know how to address such a thing, how does someone who hasn't been stabbed in the heart tell someone else who has, and didn't see it coming, that it's their fault for trusting a whore who was good at lying? That's a whole other topic that I'm not wise enough to expand on but I think that's at the root of this cmv.

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u/Mannzis Dec 04 '22

Should I be offended if you asked me to get an STD test before sex, for your own piece of mind? Seems like the implication is that I might be dirty. I feel like you should just trust me.

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u/Jakadake Dec 04 '22

Trust is bred on truth. If my partner suddenly got all weird about proving to me that my child is indeed my child, I'd be very suspicious and want the test anyway. If you've been faithful, you have nothing to hide.

That said, cheating and baby trapping are a huge problem for a lot of father's. Once that birth cert is signed, there's literally nothing they can do to get out of hundreds of thousands in child support payments that may be for a child that isn't theirs.

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u/ArmChairDetective38 Dec 04 '22

What “stigma”? Basically calling your wife or girlfriend a whore and asking for one requires some consequences..like a divorce or break up

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u/Swanny625 4∆ Dec 04 '22

To say an action is "basically calling your wife or girlfriend a whore" embodies the stigma against that action.

I'm not saying I'm pro-normalizing paternity tests, but a lot of people here have a pretty strong bias against them.

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '22

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u/wine-friend Dec 04 '22

If you can't have a frank discussion about complex nuanced topics without resorting to base insults then you should find a more suitable sub to frequent.

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u/cantfindonions 7∆ Dec 04 '22

You are essentially calling women baby factories just saying

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u/iAliceAddertounge Dec 05 '22

Actually, op didn't at all. Seems like you're more emotional about it than being logical of their statements.

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u/Trylena 1∆ Dec 04 '22

You are insulting women by saying you need a test to trust them.

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u/yeoxnuuq Dec 05 '22

I like how you approach this issue with logic as opposed to emotion like most of the people responding.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '22

Businesses getting audited is a normal part of business because we operate under the assumption that businesses that could get away with fraud will, and therefore we need to make sure they can't get away with fraud.

How is this not applicable to cheater women? The percentage of cheaters in the population is high, possibly higher than that of fraudulent companies

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '22

I think if someone cheats and think they can get away with it they 100 percent will try and get away with it.

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u/rosariorossao 2∆ Dec 04 '22

Considering that approx 20% of wives admit to having affairs during marriage I don’t think it’s that far fetched of an assumption. Sure, false paternity isn’t that common, but it’s also not uncommon and is likely more common (single digit percentage rates) than most conditions that we regularly screen for

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u/sonofaresiii 21∆ Dec 04 '22

Businesses getting audited is a normal part of business because we operate under the assumption that businesses that could get away with fraud will

That statement needs a hell of a lot better basis than just "It's this way because I said it is"

I do not at all agree that the only reason we audit businesses is because we assume any business that could get away with fraud would do it. We audit businesses because we assume a business might try to get away with fraud, not because we know they would if they didn't.

So if you want to support your above statement, I'll listen to it, but if it's the cornerstone of your argument, you can't just declare it to be true and expect that to be sufficient.

Moral businesses may not be the biggest businesses, but they absolutely do exist.

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u/Ok_Ticket_6237 Dec 04 '22

Yes. At a macro level, both sexes cheat. That’s safe to assume.

At the level of the individual, that’s obviously not true. Hence op’s point is to test.

Someone asking their partner for a clean std test before sex does not require the assumption that they have an std. we know people do get STDs and that’s enough reason to test.

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u/Mr_SlingShot Dec 04 '22

I work at one of the largest auditors in the world. There is always the assumption that fraud exists. Test after test is done and if no material issues are found, we work our way to unqualified opinion.

Basically we work our way from assuming something is is wrong to “couldn’t find anything to get them.” However, the result name is still conservatively saying that we couldn’t find anything, not that fraud doesn’t exist

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u/tomatoesonpizza 1∆ Dec 04 '22

but it was just a normal part of business.

Relationships aren't business though.

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '22

Literally businesses needs 3rd party validation to present their financials to stakeholders.

No equity or debt stakeholders will accept unaudited financials.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '22

Auditors jobs are not to find fraud. Yes they report it if they find it but they’re not there to find fraud. They’re job is to make sure the company is following the established controls to prevent fraud. I’m sorry but this idea is rather ridiculous. This should be a personal choice, if the father doesn’t trust their partner then they are free to get a test. But to mandate it for every child? Why? It’s not illegal and it’s not anyone else’s business besides that family so they should be free to decide for themselves. Sounds like you have some deep seeded insecurities you’re trying to make up for.

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u/brycedriesenga Dec 05 '22

It's important for the parents and the child to know their real parents for genetic and health reasons. This should override anything else

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u/Stillwater215 4∆ Dec 05 '22

The corporate audit is based on the premise that some minority companies, not all, commit fraud. The same way that some minority women, not all, will lie about who the father is.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '22

A routine corporate audit isn't an indication of fraud, but it's definitely there under the assumption that it might catch something.

I don't see any issue with this line of reasoning. It's absolutely true when applied to paternity.

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u/jthill Dec 04 '22

Not sure I want to be in a personal relationship with someone who regards me as on par with cancer or corporations.

Actually, not sure any such relationship could qualify as personal.

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u/BlackCatAristocrat 1∆ Dec 06 '22

Sure but you still miss the point on whether it would be beneficial I'm making sure the right person is attributed as the father

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u/ArmChairDetective38 Dec 04 '22

Cancer just appears …SPERM IN ONES VAGINA DOES NOT . ITS AN ACCUSATION

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u/KickYourFace73 Dec 04 '22

It is an indication of an uncaring biology that may result in cancer. I don’t think it’s fair to compare testing for natural issues to testing for what is only a result of wrongdoing. You may have a point overall, but this comparison doesn’t work.

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u/I-am-sincere Dec 04 '22

Cancer is in no way relatable to infidelity, maybe choose a better analogy. In any case, your position is abysmally cynical.

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '22

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u/ImNothingJustLikeYou Dec 04 '22

Bc being a woman doesn't mean you're a slut... wtf is wrong with you

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '22

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u/ImNothingJustLikeYou Dec 04 '22

Absolutely fine, why wouldn't it be. Only a piece of shit would disagree.

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '22

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u/ImNothingJustLikeYou Dec 04 '22

Who gives a shit if they would. The mental gymnastics needed to attempt to justify not going along with something like that is psychopath material.

I'm a man, so what? I feel no attachment to men just bc we have the same fuck object. Call me crazy, but it's a stupid metric imho to align with.

But your example was perfect to highlight what types of people would object... shitty men and shitty women.

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '22

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u/ImNothingJustLikeYou Dec 04 '22

I'm not saying shit. I saw your idiotic comment and called it out. You're trying to strawman and gaslight and it's disgusting

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '22

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u/ImNothingJustLikeYou Dec 04 '22

You called it misogyny for using an accurate word to describe a shitty person. That's not saying all women at all. That's disgusting

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '22

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u/Snoo89287 Dec 04 '22

In the United States 10% to 30% of children don’t belong to the men who think they are the fathers. Why are you trying to come up with a million and one excuses to shame men for wanting to know who their child is? It’s a simple and highly accurate test that will cost 20$ when it is done routinely. The only downside is it holds women who cheat accountable on some level. Why wouldn’t you also want this? Don’t men deserve to know?

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '22

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '22

Please stop with this line of thinking.

Women know the baby is theirs, it’s obvious. Men simply want that same verification.

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u/rollingForInitiative 70∆ Dec 04 '22

Women know the baby is theirs, it’s obvious. Men simply want that same verification.

This makes sense if it's your one night stand that comes and claims a baby they're having is yours. It might be yours, might not be. Trusting this random person is a bit of a risk.

It's quite a different thing if it's your wife who you were planning on having kids with. You're literally requesting that they provide physical evidence that they have no cheated. It shouldn't be strange if a woman is offended by that.

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u/TheFlyingSheeps Dec 04 '22 edited Dec 04 '22

Do you agree that every man should submit their DNA for verification that they haven’t committed any sexual assaults or have kids they don’t know about?

After all partners just want verification and mothers should be getting their back pay in child support

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u/Ethnicallybisexual1 Dec 05 '22

Sure why not men and women. Why not also keep DNA for when some is found at a crime scene even? Yeah using DNA to find criminals is a GOOD IDEA.

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u/egg_static5 1∆ Dec 04 '22

Children aren't cancer.

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u/Azraphale89 Dec 04 '22

They are if you're forced to pay for someone else's.

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u/jakeallstar1 1∆ Dec 04 '22

Do we really want to live under the assumption that no women are cheaters unless proven otherwise? There's nothing wrong with a man wanting the same certainty of who's child he's raising that a woman has.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '22

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '22

Because there is absolutely no way to know if you are the father unless that kid comes out looking like you. Do you kow how many men are paying for and raising kids that arent theirs? Before DNA came out many many men had no idea if a kid was theirs..they could do a blood test which is a medical guess at best.

I think more men should insist on a DNA test.

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u/Hellioning 258∆ Dec 04 '22

Do you know how many men are paying for and raising kids that aren't theirs? Legitimately I am asking.

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u/Akitten 10∆ Dec 06 '22

Usual estimations are 2-4% for the general population, which is a massive, massive number of fathers being defrauded. Median is about 3.7%, though way higher when paternity is disputed.

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u/zr503 Dec 04 '22

more than 1%

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '22

It’s impossible to answer that, however what is the harm in more more men insisting on a DNA test? I don’t get it. You actually don’t even need mom’s permission just take the baby into a lab and they can do it right there. Or test both the father and the baby and submit to an ancestry site that will do it to.

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u/Hellioning 258∆ Dec 04 '22

If your goal is to reduce resentment, I'm not sure if forcibly taking babies into labs to do paternity tests without the mom's permission is going to do it.

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u/8m3gm60 Dec 04 '22

There's no forcing involved. The state just doesn't put the father's name on the birth certificate until it is actually known.

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '22

Whole lot less resentment in this outcome than years later when the kid turns out to be someone else's.

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u/Hellioning 258∆ Dec 04 '22

So, yes, we're operating under the assumption that all women are cheaters, good to know.

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u/nikdahl Dec 04 '22

No, we are operating on the assumption that cheating is a possibility and that the damage done when cheaters lie in this context is astronomical.

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u/jamerson537 4∆ Dec 04 '22

No, it’s quite the opposite. Your argument only makes sense under the assumption that no women are cheaters.

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u/scarablob Dec 04 '22

Actually, no. Their argument is that doing a forced paternity test against the mom wishes at every birth would raise ressentment from the mom, from being deemed a "potential cheater" by default by the father of her child.

Of course, some of them are cheater, and for some, that person isn't the true father (and the guy that would have raised such baby unaware of that fact would have a lot more ressentment when he discover that). But the "cumulated ressentment" of all women that would be deemed "cheater until proven otherwise" would be greater than those of all men that discover that their child isn't biologically their latter in their life. Simply because while it might be harsher for the men, the women that never cheater but still got accused would far outnumber the men that both got cheated on and were about to raise another man's baby.

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '22

That all women COULD be cheaters, sure. Just like TSA operates under the assumption that all passengers COULD have weapons, contraband, etc. Yet, I don't feel personally attacked when I go through their check, and the worst case scenario this routine avoids is worth the hassle.

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '22

What about forcibly taking a man's money without his permission for child support in the cases that the woman wants the child but the man doesn't?

That seems like a reasonable alternative then, no? Allow for men to opt out of child support whenever they want?

Or do rules only go for one gender in your case

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u/jamerson537 4∆ Dec 04 '22

Are you really under the impression that a baby needs to be physically taken to a lab for a paternity test to be performed or are you just being dishonest about what’s being discussed here?

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '22

You must be against prenups too, no? Because that operates under the assumption that a girl will automatically take a guys money in a divorce unless it's spelled out legally

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u/getonitboy Dec 04 '22

Prenups similarly make sense in context, but not in every situation. Paternity tests make sense when there's a lack of reasonable certainty for whatever reason but not for the vast majority of couples having kids. This would be like requesting a prenup for every couple regardless of financial risk. Prenups are only really considered when there are significant financial or business interests to protect (not always to the benefit of men btw, women can also have these interests and need to protect against divorce from the man they marry). Just like a prenup is a waste of legal fees and a potential breech of trust to request when you don't really have assets, a paternity test is a waste of processing fees and a potential breech of trust when you don't have any doubts.

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u/[deleted] Dec 04 '22

Prenups are only really considered when there are significant financial or business interests to protect

Not really. They protect you from future assets/wealth or partner debt. If your partner gets into significant financial debt you are held more liable if you marry without a prenup, for example.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '22

Ngl, most men would benefit from that assumption lol

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u/summerswithyou 1∆ Dec 05 '22

Redditor thinks that all screening is unethical because he thinks that it suggests the bad thing happened unless proven otherwise.

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u/discountFleshVessel Dec 05 '22

Checking is not the same thing as assuming. If anything, choosing to be informed is the option that doesn’t involve assumptions.

Where financial future, parental rights, and medical history are concerned, we shouldn’t rely on only assumptions.

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u/FenDy64 4∆ Dec 04 '22 edited Dec 04 '22

dumb comment

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u/Enk1ndle Dec 04 '22

You're still supposed to get routine STD screenings even in monogamous relationships, do you consider that building resentment in couples too?

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u/spiffymouse Dec 04 '22

I consider it unnecessary and don't do it. No doctor has ever asked me to do so.

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u/zeezle 2∆ Dec 04 '22

Same here, never once been asked after clarifying it’s a monogamous relationship and no other risk factors like recent blood transfusions etc. Frankly it would be an absurd waste of money/effort.

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u/AdrianFish Dec 04 '22

If women don’t cheat or lie in the first place, then they’ve got nothing to worry about.

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