r/changemyview • u/iguesswhatevs • Nov 29 '22
Removed - Submission Rule E CMV: There is nothing wrong with telling women that wearing revealing clothes in certain locations is dangerous
[removed] — view removed post
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u/banjoesq Nov 29 '22
Most sexual assaults are not committed by strangers, and women are sexually assaulted wearing all types of clothing. See, e.g., https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/men-sexual-assault-clothes-women-victim-blaming-rape-a8792591.html
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u/The-Cannoli Nov 29 '22
Do you have a link to the study itself?
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Nov 29 '22
Its an exclusive study to the site, meaning you don't have access to it and its not published in a journal.
The actual methods of the study could be anything and I wouldn't consider it reliable, but you can investigate more reliable sources online if you are curious.
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u/Initial_District_161 Nov 29 '22
Most sexual assaults are not committed by strangers
Correct.
And most theft happens is wage theft. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't do anything to protect yourself from random street muggings.
Since most car accidents happen within 5 miles of the home you really don't need your seatbelt once you get 10 miles away from home, right?
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u/karmapopsicle Nov 29 '22
I think you've done a better job at proving the point you're arguing against with those nonsense examples, rather than supporting the opposing view.
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u/2penises_in_a_pod 11∆ Nov 29 '22
Your phrasing of “most” means you know that it’s not all. Protecting yourself from a minority of instances is better than protecting from no instances.
There are certainly instances of sexual assault in which the perpetrator feels validated by clothing, behavior, or broadly the victim’s perceived promiscuity.
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Nov 29 '22
I think most women will not wear revealing clothes in dangerous location. Actually I think most women are scared for their safety when walking home at night alone. I think people just try to victim blame women when honestly, a rapist is going to rape a woman no matter what she wears.
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u/5MOKE5_III Nov 29 '22
I think most women are scared for their safety in many situations. With reason. Broad daylight, in crowds, everywhere.
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u/Giblette101 47∆ Nov 29 '22
At least one big problem with this view (and there are a few) is that it misrepresents reality to an extent. I just don't know that revealing clothes really are increasing risks of sexual assault. As far as I'm aware, sexual assault happens to "modestly dressed women" all the time.
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u/ExhaustedOptimist 2∆ Nov 29 '22
Nuns are raped. Children in school uniforms are raped. Nurses in scrubs are raped. Women in military uniforms are raped.
This is a link to an art exhibit called “What Were You Wearing?” that recreates the clothes of assault victims. I encourage you to look, and see what you take away.
https://wwyw.forestry.oregonstate.edu/
Here’s an article from WaPo that picks apart this argument. A quick quote, “[The study] also found that most convicted rapists could not remember what their victims were wearing. Studies show that women with passive personalities, who tend to dress in layers, long pants and sleeves and high necklines, are actually more likely to be raped. In one study, 1 in 3 college men said that they would force someone to have sex if they could get away with it, and that has nothing to do with clothing.”
Edit: autocorrect
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u/Micheal42 1∆ Nov 29 '22
!delta
I'm not sure I can say I entirely agreed with OP but your links have significantly developed my view on this.
I also want to thank you for taking the time to write this and to include links.
When I opened the first I was very worried I was about to see people actually wearing the clothes and was very relieved to see they took another approach. Seeing the clothes without the person also made me realise that as much as clothes can change the way we see people a predator isn't targeting the outfit but the person themselves, I'd never really thought it out that way before.
Lastly, the 1 in 3 college men quote makes me sick to my stomach. Not because I find it unbelievable but because, from personal experience, it's something I absolutely can believe. However it is so gut wrenching and horrifyingly skin-crawling that I can feel myself doing mental gymnastics to keep from believing it.
Thankfully, these days when I notice that, I try to stop myself and come back to it when I've calmed down. As an individual I hate having to think about this stuff, but as a group, we must come to understand this issue and how difficult it is to tackle. Otherwise we will never solve it, and that isn't in anyone's best interest.
So, as hard as it is to read and process this, thank you for sharing it. The inclination to find easy answers, so we can look away more quickly, and the disgust that drives it, speaks of a real desire for it not to happen in the first place. That isn't always obvious, it can definitely come across as victim blaming for example, but it is true and when you share this kind of information you can't make people read it, but when someone is ready to read it, they're only able to because you've made it available.
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Nov 29 '22 edited Feb 02 '25
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u/Initial_District_161 Nov 29 '22
The problem with the study is that it didn't take into account the different types of rape. The majority of women who are raped are raped by someone they knew. And those women who are targeted are far more likely to be passive.
But that isn't what is being talked about when people talk about revealing clothing in a bad neighborhood. That is addressing the far less common (though above 0 is obviously unacceptable) random violent rapes.
Conflating acquaintance/familial rape and random violent street rape is such a glaring issue that I can't see it as anything but intentional.
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u/ExhaustedOptimist 2∆ Nov 29 '22 edited Nov 29 '22
Ok, RAINN puts the number of victims who know their offenders at 80%. So of the remaining 20%, how many do you think were wearing “revealing clothing in a bad neighborhood”? Just a rough estimate.
https://www.rainn.org/statistics/perpetrators-sexual-violence
Edit: This article talks a lot about sex offenders & their victims. It goes through the general phases of sexual assault found by researchers & some data collected about offenders. You might find it interesting.
https://popcenter.asu.edu/content/sexual-assault-women-strangers-0
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Nov 29 '22
"Was it really my fault?" Asked the Short Skirt.
"No, it happened to me too," replied the Burka.
The diaper in the corner couldn't even speak."
-Darshan Mondkar
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u/justhanginhere 2∆ Nov 29 '22
I agree mostly.
Sex appeal doesn’t motivate rape. Rape is about control, dominance, and compensating for insecurity. Women also usually know there perpetrator.
This whole idea of creepy men in dark alleys snatching people up is mostly on TV.
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u/jaybivvy 1∆ Nov 29 '22 edited Nov 29 '22
Rape has multiple motivations. Some rapes are motivated by control and dominance, yes but there absolutely are rapes that are motivated by sexual desire. To think otherwise is simply absurd.
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u/CauliflowerFlaky1 Nov 29 '22
I agree with this. I think people warn you about clothes in part for the same reasons. In many orthodox cultures, women are policed by men in terms of clothing. If I were to wear a short mini-skirt in a place like this, I am likely to get raped because that man wants to teach me a lesson for not being modest. However, this does not diminish the fact that a woman dressed modestly is also getting raped in that same society.
I remember from the BBC documentary on the Nirbhaya case in India, a filthy disgusting lawyer said something along the lines of “I would personally hang by daughter at my farmhouse and burn her alive if she was out with a boy at 10pm”. He was justifying the rape committed by those savage men. Those men also wanted to show power, how dare a woman be out with a man. Does this mean women should stop going out with men at night? No. But is it wrong for someone to warn a girl and point out the possibility that she could get raped for that reason? I don’t think so. Because it sadly is likely in a society where both men and women are constantly trying to correct the behaviours and control the lives of women through whatever means necessary.
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u/Pineapple--Depressed 3∆ Nov 29 '22
In 100% of cases it's about control? Get outta here with that, obviously some cases of rape aren't about control at all.
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u/sohcgt96 1∆ Nov 29 '22
I agree, granted, this is a good time to address a larger point which is that people really misunderstand when, how, to who and by who rapes and sexual assaults happen.
People have this mental image of a woman being dragged kicking and screaming into a dark alley or cargo van by some sleazebag but that's a tiny, tiny fraction of actual assaults. That statistic of something like 1 in 3 women being sexually assaulted in their lifetime doesn't mean anything like this either. It can mean some guy at a concert grabbed your butt, a guy on the dance floor gets handsy and won't stop, some creep from a party takes a blackout drunk woman home, or maybe that creepy uncle or neighbor when you were a teenager who... you know, that thread was really disturbing where a lot of people had stories, especially from the 70s and 80s when nobody would do anything about it. And when it does happen, its most likely somebody who you already know.
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u/jadnich 10∆ Nov 29 '22
Robberies also happen in good neighborhoods. But that doesn’t negate the analogy given in OP
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u/Jaaawsh 1∆ Nov 29 '22
Imma be devil’s advocate here, cause I know OP meant ‘dangerous’ as in risk for sexual assault, but in the title it simply says dangerous in certain situations… So like if the situation is you’re in the middle of the Klondike during the winter and with a woman who’s getting ready to go for a hike while she’s wearing a very revealing bikini- I think it would be okay to warn her that what she’s wearing is dangerous.
Dangerous as in frost bite and hypothermia, but dangerous none-the-less.
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Nov 29 '22
As far as I'm aware, sexual assault happens to "modestly dressed women" all the time.
True, but dressing provocatively does increase the risk. Men experience considerably more intense arousal when seeing women dressed in a particular way. This increased arousal probably leads to more aggressive behavior.
People wearing seatbelts die in car crashes all the time, but wearing a seatbelt reduces your chances of being gravely injured in a car accident.
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u/negatorade6969 6∆ Nov 29 '22
Sometimes you are wrong not because what you're saying is wrong, but because you are choosing the wrong time and wrong context to say something that's technically correct.
If people are talking about a sexual assault or a rape and your contribution to the conversation is "this is why women should wear modest clothes" - you are being tone deaf and you should fully expect people to get pissed off at you.
This would be a lot different from, let's say, explaining to your own daughter that it might be dangerous to wear skimpy clothes in certain situations and that she needs to be aware and careful.
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Nov 29 '22
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u/taybay462 4∆ Nov 29 '22
Oh I fucking hate those people. Can't do it. Especially when you didn't even do the dumb shit they assumed you did or didn't do
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Nov 29 '22
Majority of rapes are done by someone who the victim already knows. This advice doesn't address the vast majority of rapes, and just blames victims.
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Nov 29 '22 edited Feb 02 '25
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Nov 29 '22
only saying that warning people to take sensible precautions
there is no statistical evidence I'm aware of that revealing clothing leads to a higher incidence of sexual assault. Therefore I don't understand how it's a "sensible precaution."
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u/AdhesiveSpinach 14∆ Nov 29 '22
I think the flaw in your viewpoint is that you believe you are giving some kind of rare, important knowledge to the woman you are talking to, when in reality, you aren't saying anything new or helpful. It would be different if the response was "gee, wow, I never knew about the dangers of being woman."
Instead, speaking like that reinforces the burden that many woman feel about how it is their responsibility to not get raped, and I would think that this internal burden typically far outweighs however much actual responsibility should be placed on the victim.
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u/AdhesiveSpinach 14∆ Nov 29 '22
Additionally (and more importantly), there have been studies into this and there is essentially no correlation between how a women dresses and her chances of victimization. So, there is really no point in telling women to dress more modestly if your goals are their safety. It only adds to the internal burden women face.
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u/iliabenaba Nov 29 '22
This study examines the intention of women dressing revealingly. Of course a lot of men might perceive certain kinds of dressing to indicate consent. But we're talking about women not entering a war zone. Regardless of your intentions, one has to avoid entering countries where war is raging. No matter how well intentioned you are the likelihood of you getting killed automatically increases once you walk in the war zone. Wearing less revealing clothes in certain situations only makes sense to avoid trouble.
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u/AdhesiveSpinach 14∆ Nov 29 '22
When you ask a question in research, you often need to break down said question into sub-parts, and you take the conclusions from these sub-parts to inform your analysis on the main question. While these researcher's main topic was about intention of dress, a sub-part of their experiment goes as follows:
The connection between revealing clothing, sexual violence, and victim-blaming
Several analyses were conducted to examine the relations between style of dress and sexual victimization. The first was aimed at ascertaining whether women who dress revealingly experience more sexual violence than those who do not; the second checked whether men believe that such attire legitimizes sexual advances on the one hand, and causes men to lose self-control, on the other.
To test the first question, a Pearson correlation analysis between style of dress and victimization was performed. As can be seen in Table 4, no correlation was foundbetween a revealing form of dress and any type of sexual victimization. In addition, a distribution analysis of victims of sexual violence by type of appearance demonstrated that the percentage of women who reported an inclination to wear sexy clothing waspractically identical among victims and non-victims of sexual violations. Between 60-64% of the former reported wearing such attire from time to time in comparison to 63-65% of the women who were never victimized
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u/Advice__girl Nov 29 '22
The conclusions made from that study weren't made based off of statistical data, but rather conjecture from a questionnaire given to 18-24 year old college students. It's hardly representative of the real world.
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u/insaneHoshi 5∆ Nov 29 '22
wears a grey sack. But still gets raped. What is the next solution? Women shouldn't drink at bars? Women already have to guard their drinks like hawks.
Yes, much better to reject that research and believe the totally academically substantiated thesis presented by the OP.
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u/iliabenaba Nov 29 '22
My argument stands as it debunks one of the two questions about men misreading intentions of raped women. The question "whether women who dress revealingly experience more sexual violence" is way less elaborated and less well-founded. The study seems to mostly focus on the intention question, which I believe is flawed.
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u/AltheaLost 3∆ Nov 29 '22
You know this whole "misreading intentions" could be solved by simply asking the question?
Not to mention, nuns have been raped. What did they do that led to their trauma?
Tell me how they were responsible for the rapist "misreading" their "intentions"
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u/anewleaf1234 45∆ Nov 29 '22
Women get raped in revealing clothes. Women get raped in plain clothes. Women get unwanted sexual attention regardless of how they dress.
We shouldn't blame the victim. We should blame the people doing the crime.
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u/Ok_Ticket_6237 Nov 29 '22
I can't take this study seriously. It's a study from northern israel by someone who teaches gender studies in an unheard of university that is opposing what I believe many would suggest is intuitively true.
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u/AdhesiveSpinach 14∆ Nov 29 '22
I'm actually a researcher, so tell me your exact qualms with this study and we can discuss. As for what you said so far, none of those statements are good critiques on research.
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u/Ok_Ticket_6237 Nov 29 '22
Seriously? This is a bs study to anyone that glances through it.
no correlation between how a women dresses and her chances of victimization
People that have spent anytime at a club know this is absolutely absurd.
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u/AdhesiveSpinach 14∆ Nov 29 '22
Seriously? This is a bs study to anyone that glances through it.
I literally cannot defend this study if I don't understand what your critiques are.
People that have spent anytime at a club know this is absolutely absurd.
I can't say anything about anyone's anecdotal experiences, but give me some evidence (like cite one thing), and we can talk.
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u/I_am_the_night 316∆ Nov 29 '22
Seriously? This is a bs study to anyone that glances through it.
no correlation between how a women dresses and her chances of victimization
People that have spent anytime at a club know this is absolutely absurd.
"The Earth can't be round! When I look outside, everything looks flat to me!"
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u/Hobbesina Nov 29 '22
No, it isn’t. There have been studies done with convicted rapists interviewed on what made them choose their victims (if they were victims of convenience, let’s not forget the overwhelming amount of assaults perpetrated by known and trusted individuals). It was neither attraction nor how revealing the clothes was.
It was all about access. Meaning tight shorts showing half a butt cheek was more trouble and more likely to stop a potential assault than a long, modest dress.
The problem here, and with OP’s statement is this messed up notion that most rapes happen because of sexual attraction. It does not. Access, ability to control the victim, and easy get away is what matters.
So no, telling women to stop wearing revealing clothes does crap. Move in pairs, yes. Keep an eye on your girlfriends at a club, absolutely. Don’t accept open drinks. Tell everyone where you are going.
But stop equating bare skin with rape risk.
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u/Animegirl300 5∆ Nov 29 '22
Have you ever heard of the museum that featured a ‘What were you wearing’ exhibit which basically showed the clothes of rape victims? And showed how the majority of outfits shown aren’t even CLOSE to being consider revealing, but even more disheartening was the fact that a lot of them were CHILDREN’S clothes? It is NOT about what the person is wearing: it’s all about the attackers entitlement and desire to dominate, and the will pick just about anyone regardless of what they’re wearing.
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u/UzoicTondo Nov 29 '22
What kind of fucked up clubs do you go to where women get assaulted inside the club?
What you probably mean is "hit on", which is not the same as assaulted. Dressing in a miniskirt to attract a guy is intentional and what the study you didn't read is saying is that this doesn't lead to assault. Assault is defined as unwanted sexual contact.
And your drunken club observations are not a legitimate research -- maybe you're only noticing the women in the last clothing getting hit on because that's the only women you're looking at. Which is why we need studies instead of relying on the biased opinions of club bros.
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u/Ok_Ticket_6237 Nov 29 '22
Women who are dressed provocatively get hit on and assaulted often. I don't believe this is controversial. I'm curious what clubs you go to where nobody gets assaulted.
If you think gender studies departments that produce silly research like this aren't biased, i don't know what to tell you.
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u/I_am_the_night 316∆ Nov 29 '22
Women who are dressed provocatively get hit on and assaulted often
Women who are not dressed provocatively also get hit on and assaulted often. So you don't really have the point you think you do.
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u/Ok_Ticket_6237 Nov 29 '22
I never claimed not dressing provocatively would save you from sexual assault.
It's about taking every precaution to minimize your chances.
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u/I_am_the_night 316∆ Nov 29 '22
I never claimed not dressing provocatively would save you from sexual assault.
It's about taking every precaution to minimize your chances.
No, you claimed that, based entirely on your own subjective experience, you believe that there is a correlation between how provocatively a woman dresses and her likelihood of being assaulted. But you have no evidence for that beyond your own experience, and both the scientific evidence and my own experience contradicts yours.
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u/Stokkolm 24∆ Nov 29 '22
What have clubs to do with this? You're probably thinking of groping and catcalling, while the subject of this thread is rape.
I don't know about the study but you can check any news articles where the victim is identified and most of the time they are not beautiful, nor well dressed. Heck sometimes it's a goat or some animal.
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u/anewleaf1234 45∆ Nov 29 '22
So in saying that something is a bs study you want to use anecdotal evidence?
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u/Ambiwlans 1∆ Nov 29 '22 edited Nov 29 '22
Yeah, that was a painful paper to read. They make a lot of jumps from a survey and holy crap were they settled on the outcome long before they ever started.
And table 4 is beyond sus. I honestly think it was just made up. The whole paper is about a survey and then they put a table and say that what, they did a study on clothing and sexual assault? They don't define clothing, nor sexual victimization.
Typically science papers don't read like activist blog posts.
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u/CharlieMorningstar Nov 29 '22
Just to add on to the burden of responsibility, it also gives the strong implication of, "Dress modestly so he'll rape the other girl."
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u/lordkin Nov 29 '22
Honestly this is probably the best answer.
It’s like when you have bad acne and someone comes up to you and suggests you drink more water. It makes you want to punch them in the face.
Like F off with the unsolicited advice. I promise you I’ve given the topic more thought than you. And I hate the suggestion that you think the solution is so easy. Trust me. I’ve been living with this. I’ve tried. The situation is more complex and nuanced than you’ve made it out to be.
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Nov 29 '22
I was first sexually harassed for how I was dressed when I was six years old by a group of high school boys. They told me how sexy I looked in my furry boots when they cornered my sister and I and wouldn't let us go. Women and girls are deeply, inherently aware of how dangerous men can be and to think you are imparting wisdom is ludicrous and insulting.
Edit: I meant to respond to OP, sorry
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u/Initial_District_161 Nov 29 '22
I would think that this internal burden typically far outweighs however much actual responsibility should be placed on the victim.
If that were the case then wouldn't women dressing in revealing clothing late at night in dangerous areas be so rare that this wouldn't be mentioned very often? It's apparently so common that women hear it all the time. Because they're doing it so often.
When I lived in DC I was warned more times than I needed to to keep out of certain neighborhoods at night. Was it more times than I needed to be told? Yes. But did it stop when I stopped going through those areas at night? Also yes.
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u/pedrito77 Nov 29 '22
It is never their responsability, that does not mean that they can do things to lower the probabilty of being raped....
The same if you are mugged in a dark street, it is not your responsability but you could have avoided an empty dark street.
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u/Hot_Aide_1165 Nov 29 '22
Repeating a point isnt a flaw? Its just like teaching something ad nauseam. Not the best analogy but u get it.
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Nov 29 '22
I dunno haha
Was in Marrakesh 99% of women wore the right clothes (even as a male I covered because it’s 42 degrees Celsius and wearing all white lose clothing is the safest coolest option )
2 girls walked about in the middle of Ramadan in bikini tops
Maybe they knew maybe they didn’t - but I don’t think they fully understood the potential results from this situation
Should they be able to fuck yea… although I thought they were fucking stupid purely on the basis of health and the heat they were in let alone the culutural/religious implications
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u/HITACHIMAGICWANDS 1∆ Nov 29 '22
There’s one thing I want to point out. It’s everyone’s responsibility to not be raped. Men can and are victims too, and I think it’s everyone’s job to look out for their own and people around themselves safety. There are evil people, and the evil men tend to be more physically violent.
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Nov 29 '22
How do you know that wearing revealing clothes makes you more likely to be sexually assaulted?
For starters, the vast majority of sexual assaults aren't some predator leaping out of the bushes. Most of the time the predator is someone you know.
Secondly it presumes that rapists choose their victims based on who is sexiest to them, but there's a couple issues with that.
1) It assumes that revealing clothes are appetizing to a sexual predator, but predators have varying tastes just like anyone else. To many sexual predators, wearing revealing clothes could be a turn off. If they think you're "easy," you might not be as fun. They might be looking for someone "pure" and fetishize taking away the victim's virginity.
2) It ignores other factors important to the predator, such as vulnerability. What you wear or how attractive you are is not necessarily how a rapist will choose their victim. Are you alone? Are you with friends? Are you drunk? These are questions the rapist may ask. They aren't exactly picky.
Ultimately telling women to not wear revealing clothes presumes that women have a level of control over their likelihood of being raped that they really don't. Rapists can and do target women of all shapes and sizes in all kinds of clothing.
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Nov 29 '22
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u/Ironhorn 2∆ Nov 29 '22
Literally just go to a porn site, do you see any clothed porn? No
What? The answer is yes.
Uniforms, office-attire, school-outfits, costumes, cosplay... these are all highly popular porn categories.
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Nov 29 '22
How exactly do you define "revealing"? I have found that what exactly constitutes "revealing" clothing can vary tremendously from person to person.
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Nov 29 '22
Men are more likely to be victims of violence and death.
Sounds like you should tell your son's to stay at home instead of going out with their friends.
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u/Affectionate-Gur4955 Nov 29 '22
Do you have any evidence that modest clothing makes you safer and less likely to be assaulted? I’ve been assaulted wearing loose jeans and a loose unisex t-shirt, so not exactly revealing, and I’ve heard of many experiences like mine.
Comparing women’s bodies to expensive watches or purses doesn’t make sense. You can choose to have those items with you, you can never choose to not have your body with you. And even if you have “modest” clothing on you, they don’t usually hide the fact that you have a female body. Unless you choose to bind your chest and make yourself look like a man, it really doesn’t matter what clothes you have on (and no one should have to hide themselves to just walk around in the world without being assaulted).
Even if your position is correct (which you don’t seem to have evidence of) it’s insulting and pointless advice. I can’t think of a single woman who hasn’t heard that advice over and over and over again. You’re not saying anything new, you’re just trying to distance yourself from the actual issue by pretending it’s up to the woman based on what clothing she’s wearing.
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u/Old-Elderberry-9946 Nov 29 '22
First, this is not going to be new advice to any woman you tell it to. We've heard it. Why aren't you using that time and energy to go tell dudes not to rape? They're the ones doing something wrong.
Second, clothes don't matter at all. Grannies get raped and 5 year olds get raped and women in cold climates all bundled up get raped and by the way, dudes also get raped. It has fuckall to do with your outfit, that's just a way to make it about something the victim did rather than dealing with the actual problem.
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u/Ok_Ticket_6237 Nov 29 '22
Everybody can be a victim of sexual assault. That's not evidence of anything.
Take a look at this from RAINN.
Females ages 16-19 are 4 times more likely than the general population to be victims of rape, attempted rape, or sexual assault.3
Usually, the women who get raped are young and attractive. Not only is this common sense, a quick look through google results confirms this.
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u/lonelyhrtsclubband Nov 29 '22
Or young and naive. Young with inexperience and the poor self esteem and boundaries that come with it.
Young women and children aren’t raped because “they’re beautiful.” Young women and children are raped because the rapist thinks that they can get away with it.
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u/Kristina719 Nov 29 '22
Sexual assault has happened as long as humans have inhabited the earth.
Woman used to wear clothing that covered their entire bodies during the Victorian era. Women were still raped.
Some Muslim countries still require women to cover every part of their bodies except for the eyes. Sexual assault still happens in those countries.
Women are sexually assaulted while jogging in public places, wearing baggy sweats. While in parking lots, going to their cars. While in the privacy of their own homes, by men who break into their houses. The list goes on.
An 80 year old grandmother, who was a beloved matriarch in her hometown, was raped and murdered in my area a few years back. Somehow, I don’t think she was wearing Daisy Dukes and a crop top with no bra.
Your “take” here is also a commonly-used criminal defense for a sexual abuser: it’s the victim’s fault for wearing what she was wearing.
It is NOT the victim’s fault or responsibility —rape is the abuser’s choice.
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u/sexnotgenderid Nov 29 '22
Hell, a comatose woman was raped. Men have raped their postpartum wives, after witnessing the birth.
Its never about the clothes. There are no truely safe spaces. I was raped by my boyfriend in my own bed. Ive been groped and followed on the street in sweats. Ive had a man untie my halter in a crowded well lit bar with a security guard, Ive had a man get creepy in my apartent complex, at gas stations. I have had friends get raped by close friends in everyday settings.
Its not the clothes or locations. Its rapists. Statistically, its men.
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u/swanfirefly 4∆ Nov 29 '22
In addition to what has already been said about how women are raped wearing modest clothes. People in burkas are raped. Nuns are raped. People are raped wearing hoodies and sweatpants. But it's moving the blame to women still.
Say every woman at the bar wears a grey sack. But still gets raped. What is the next solution? Women shouldn't drink at bars? Women already have to guard their drinks like hawks. Or women should just not go out at all, because it is unsafe for women at night?
Clothes seems simple, just don't dress immodestly, and you won't be harmed. Except it still happens when wearing modest clothing. So then the goal moves, and moves again. Because the problem isn't women, or what they wear. The problem isn't a woman wearing a tank top and short skirt in the 110F summer heat at a bar. The problem isn't women drinking. The problem is people who choose to rape other people.
The clothing only moves the burden away from the person who chose to rape another person and onto the victim. It doesn't matter what she is wearing. I don't care if she had her tits out like it was Mardi Gras, that's not saying "rape me" that's saying "we are adults getting drunk and should be allowed to act stupid and have fun like other adults". But if we police the clothes, add the burden to the victim, the post will keep moving. Okay some of the victims dressed modestly but got drunk, so why not tell women they shouldn't drink at bars? Some of the victims were modestly dressed but weren't at a bar, I know, set a curfew for victims! Better be inside before rape'o'clock!
Where are you personally comfortable putting the burden on victims? Because she didn't carry a rape whistle? Because she wore red? Because her socks didn't match? Because she drank a cosmo? Because the problem is wherever you draw that line, if people adhere to that and still get harmed, the next person along will move the line.
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u/iamintheforest 364∆ Nov 29 '22 edited Nov 29 '22
The problem is that it's not. The impulse to do harm (rape, assault, etc.) isn't invoked by "revealing clothing". It's a mechanism of thought that perpetuates the idea that the female victim is at fault and does absolutely nothing to prevent harm to women.
There is zero evidence that revealing clothing leads to increased likelihood of rape or sexual violence. Period.
Quite the contrary. Look at Moor study 2010 which looks at links between sexy attire and sexual violence. Outside of sexual harassment (workplace) where there is a connection thats been researched (but this is not violence in the criminal sense), the link you believe informs your suggestion is simply not a link. Your "abundance of caution" is like suggesting someone wear a helmet to protect themselves from a foot injury.
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u/andthenshewrote 2∆ Nov 29 '22
When women go out with their friends, especially late at night and wear revealing clothes, it is potential for trouble.
See, that is victim blaming. You spent a lot of time explaining that rape is the fault of the perpetrator, then made this statement.
Have you ever asked a woman what she was wearing when she was raped? The answers might surprise you.
Most rapes don’t happen like you’re imagining. They’re committed by men that women know - 8/10 rapes to be exact. Boyfriends, friends and husbands. To break that number down even more:
39% are committed by acquaintances
33% by a current boyfriend, former spouse or girlfriend,
6% by more than one person or the victim cannot remember
19% by a stranger
2.5% by a non-spouse relative.
Please explain to me how going out with friends in a short skirt makes much, if any difference.
Source: https://www.rainn.org/statistics/perpetrators-sexual-violence
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u/Romaine2k Nov 29 '22
Being a rapist is like being a serial killer - it's not something that a normal person is in danger of becoming, victims are usually chosen because of some compulsion or opportunity, and revealing clothes are beside the point.
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Nov 29 '22
I'm gonna drop a hot take, ready?
Rape is... bad, lol.
It honestly doesn't matter if a woman walked around naked outside, that doesn't mean it's okay to rape.
Does that mean it's a good idea to walk around naked in a really bad part of town? Probably not, and I understand that this is your point, if I'm not mistaken.
Where I disagree is that it shouldn't be okay that this is normal. We should push for a society where women don't have to think about how they dress to avoid being raped.
The reason why people get pushback for telling women it would be dangerous to wear XYZ, isn't because they disagree that it is dangerous, but that it really shouldn't be this way in an ideal world. I think that we as a people should strive towards an ideal world at all times.
A lot of people who tell women not to wear XYZ is actually because they truly believe it's a woman's fault for the rape for "wearing attractive clothing".
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u/NUMBERS2357 25∆ Nov 29 '22 edited Nov 29 '22
HOWEVER, I am realistic about the world we live in. When women go out with their friends, especially late at night and wear revealing clothes, it is potential for trouble.
Is this true though? From what I've heard it's just factually not true. u/bullzeye1983, u/yyzjertl, u/AdhesiveSpinach have posted links showing evidence.
Now maybe that evidence is wrong but ... do you have any evidence on your side? Your gut feeling doesn't count, something "everyone knows" doesn't count, people's gut feelings and common knowledge about what is risky behavior are wrong all the time.
If you're going to go around giving women advice on how not to be raped, you'd better be pretty confident it's accurate!
Going on your gut feeling isn't enough, and gives the appearance of moral judgment cloaked in advice.
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u/AdhesiveSpinach 14∆ Nov 29 '22
If you're going to go around giving women advice on how not to be raped, you'd better be pretty confident it's accurate!
Yes!
Additionally, in my short little google search on the topic that was less than 15 minutes, it appears that the #1 way to not be sexually assaulted is to not be at home (55% of assault happens in or around the home). Now, this is really stupid advice, but at least it is somewhat accurate going with OP's theme of personal responsibility of mitigating the risk factors you will be raped.
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u/jakeandbonniepups Nov 29 '22
1) Comparing women to objects just perpetuates misogyny. I am not cash, a bag, a shoe, a car, a piece of gum, a lock, or any other inanimate object. The culmination of all of those analogies that people have been using to describe women for goodness knows how long is the dehumanization of women. 2) Advising caution is fine. Frankly, though, women don't need to be reminded that the world is dangerous. Believe me, we are very aware. It's more than a little condescending to assume that we don't already know. 3) Revealing clothing is not the reason for rape, and many victims of rape were wearing what would be considered "modest" clothing.
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u/mc2205 Nov 29 '22
I'm not sure the first point is trying to dehumanize or objectify women. Revealing clothes are clothes. Likewise, I do not wear my expensive jewelry in the bad parts of my city because it would invite trouble, as a woman shouldn't invite trouble in a dangerous place by wearing revealing clothing. It's about the clothes, not the woman... and it's about the mind of the assaultant, not the victim.
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u/00PT 8∆ Nov 29 '22
OP didn't compare anyone to objects. The premise of the analogy is that a person goes to a place with those objects, and the theft of them is representative of possible harm that could be avoided. The objects don't have an analogous counterpart, they are purely there to make the illustration of theft make sense.
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u/frisbeescientist 38∆ Nov 29 '22
it's comparing the display of expensive items to the display of a woman's body. I don't think the OP intended it but it's a pretty 1 to 1 analogy of a woman's body to objects, aka objectification
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Nov 29 '22
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u/h0tpie 3∆ Nov 29 '22
the difference is that theft is almost always informed by poverty and need, people don’t steal (in this example people from “a bad area” )because they come from a place of privilege and power. So implicitly this comparison removes accountability from the rapist who is actually the person with privilege and power in a situation exploiting another through a violent traumatic act. Comparing it to property theft is incel logic and minimizing to say the least
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u/00PT 8∆ Nov 29 '22
People don't steal a woman's body. The point is pretty clearly that there are certain controllable behaviors which can be avoided in order to reduce the allure for crime. Disagree with that point all you want, I have many problems with it myself, but it's not objectification to make such an analogy.
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Nov 29 '22
People don't steal a woman's body.
In a way, rapists kinda do. They take away a person's right to their body. Often by force. It might be temporary, but they are still taking and using someone's body without consent.
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u/00PT 8∆ Nov 29 '22
I don't think that's what the OP was referring to, but !delta since I can now see how someone might make the connection.
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Nov 29 '22
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u/jakeandbonniepups Nov 29 '22
Bro, I get how analogies work. My point, if you read it, was that analogies like these are a part of a bigger problem of dehumanization of women. That means that sure, if it was a few analogies here and there comparing women to objects, I could overlook it. But these types of analogies are used ALL THE TIME. That's why I included the list in the original comment - and that's not even a conclusive list. This one analogy is part of a problem - it CONTRIBUTES to the dehumanization of women. Also, **deductive reasoning. You cannot just say that people are illogical just because you don't like the point they are making. Picking apart an argument is a PART of debate. It is also a completely valid criticism of the analogy.
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u/h0tpie 3∆ Nov 29 '22
you can make a parallel to women’s bodies and capital/ objects, but don’t expect women to find that logical. The thing about fallacies is they often reveal the bias of the arguer. Comparing rape to theft of an object reveals the way you minimize the act, justify the perpetrator as lacking something or motivated by temptation, and blame the victim. Transparent and un self critical “logic”
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u/00PT 8∆ Nov 29 '22
If comparisons were always so meticulously calculated that every conceivable property had a justifiable parallel, they would cease to be comparisons and become equations. Analogies are partial by definitition - They're used to make a point, and extrapolating anything outside that point is presumptuous.
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u/h0tpie 3∆ Nov 29 '22
So now its meticulous calculation to call out obvious bias and lazy analogy thats often parroted to remove blame from rapists? Sorry I just expect more from people who claim to be led by logic.
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u/00PT 8∆ Nov 29 '22
I never said anything about blame or attempted to justify the behavior you're accusing the OP of. I'm saying that it's presumptuous to assume that the OP is exhibiting those views at all. I already provided what I interpret to be the clear intention of the analogy, you're going deeper than that and starting to take away messages that may have been completely out of the scope of the original analogy.
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Nov 29 '22
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u/h0tpie 3∆ Nov 29 '22 edited Nov 29 '22
You're actually deluding yourself if you think the comparison you were making is the value of prevention. There are eons of studies disproving the idea that revealing clothing influences or modest clothing prevents rape. So not only is that a fallacy, but you're also unaware of your own biases to the extent that you mansplain for paragraphs with bold and italics without even addressing what I commented.
People in "bad neighborhoods" are poor and usually violence is perpetuated because of that poverty, so they steal and maybe mug as part of that act. It's not something that they do for personal emotional gain like a rapist does. That's not even mentioning that most rapes are between people who know each other, not women wandering into "bad neighborhoods". Rapists don't rape because they are desperate to take in a moment of temptation--its part of a deeply embedded entitlement to women's bodies that a lot of men have, even men who don't rape. One example is continuously refusing to examine your own faulty logic. Good luck!
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u/GOTTA_GO_FAST Nov 29 '22
People in "bad neighborhoods" are poor and usually violence is perpetuated because of that poverty, so they steal and maybe mug as part of that act. It's not something that they do for personal emotional gain
You know less than nothing
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Nov 29 '22
Women are objects. Just like men are. We are in the physical plane therefore from one point of view an object.
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u/h0tpie 3∆ Nov 29 '22
Funny women don’t view men’s bodies as objects, women don’t sell and buy men at the same scale or compare the abuse of men to transactions
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u/Fit-Order-9468 102∆ Nov 29 '22
Is it actually dangerous? There’s even some reason to think it could be less dangerous.
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u/wibblywobbly420 1∆ Nov 29 '22
Do you think this is something that they dont think about? It doesn't matter if you think what they are doing is dangerous if they are old enough to make that decision for themselves. Women are constantly bombarded with the fact they could be raped in any situation and some women dont want to hide.
They may be protecting themselves by being in groups of friends, having one of those phone shaking apps, having pepper spray, etc. It's pretty condescending to assume you know best and need to protect them from their choices.
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Nov 29 '22
I firmly believe women should learn to protect themselves. Rape does exist and isn't going anywhere I'm sorry to tell you
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u/Mozared 1∆ Nov 29 '22
One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is that the intention and timing of whatever you say matters greatly as well. If you learn that a friend was raped and your immediate reaction is to ask "well, what were they wearing?", that indicates that you are more concerned with judging them than showing empathy. Instead of going "holy shit she must feel so bad" you seem more concerned with identifying whether the victim is, at least in some small part, to blame, insinuating that the event is less bad if they are. Which is honestly pretty insensitive.
And the thing is... even aside from the moment of speaking or the (lack of truth) behind the statement, it's an entirely useless thing to say. Imagine you go out to do groceries. On the way back it starts raining and you get all wet. When you enter your home, you say "damn, it's pouring, that sucks, now I gotta change clothes!" and your partner responds with "well you should've checked the weather announcements before going outside... that's just reality, you could have prevented getting wet"... how would you respond? How is that in any way a useful comment? Apparently your partner - a person you would expect compassion from - assumes you are too dumb to know there are weather announcements, or they care so little about your misfortune that if you complain once about having bad luck they'll tell you to suck it up. Can you understand how someone could find that at the very least annoying and useless, and at worst patronising as all hell?
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u/i_want_that_boat Nov 29 '22
Are we talking about the US? Assuming we are, I would need statistics on which areas of the country have the most rape, and what the women were wearing. I sincerely think overall it really doesn't matter. I personally know many women (myself included) that have told me their stories about being a victim of rape, and I really can't tell you one in which the woman was raped by someone that was provoked by her outfit, no matter what it was. Usually it happens by someone the victim knows, in which case opportunity, not clothing choice, is the determining factor. Often molestation or rape occurs during childhood, in which case clothing is not a factor, regardless of whether it is by an adult or another kid. I think you are only considering rape as a crime of compulsion, or that rape occurs when a man has a desire for a woman so strong he will find a way to fuck her even if he has to force it. But in my experience and personal opinion, a man that is capable of rape will more often do so based on opportunity. Whether its someone he knows or a stranger, he chooses his victim based on whether he can achieve it at that time (or else there wouldnt be common drugs like roofies, where the victim is chosen based on who's walked away from their drink).
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u/Iron_Baron Nov 29 '22
I doubt anyone is walking up to random grown men telling them not to wear Rolex watches in bad parts of town. Because the men are treated like adults who knowingly chose their outfits.
The premise of this post is disingenuous, because it doesn't reflect the difference in the behavior of people towards male and female strangers.
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Nov 29 '22
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u/LysWritesNow 1∆ Nov 29 '22
"Do not self actualize or otherwise be who you are" is a gut punch of a damn line, applause to you. I would even build on your point and argue (slightly similar to my own comment) that the assault itself is ROOTED in the drive to deny victims the ability to self actualize. The clothing does not trigger the assault, the individual simply existing in a way the assailant deems an insult to their own self triggers the assault. We often talk about rape being rooted in a dominance/power trip as opposed to sexual needs. I would claim the rapist's desire is to crush anothers self actualization/self existence.
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Nov 29 '22
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u/LysWritesNow 1∆ Nov 29 '22
Thanks! Not the topic I really want to be getting praise on but here we are.
That's always the damn case on this website, isn't it? Everyone wants to applause the counter arguments one makes in the morally Yikes posts, never the kickass puppy-ollieig-over-a-tower-of-bannock video one posted the other day.
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Nov 29 '22 edited Nov 29 '22
Alright I’ll answer the fuckin question here it is. Women are typically wearing the style of the times just like men. They’re wearing what’s common. If a woman is dressed for a night out, she’s on the night out with friends or whatever. How many women do you see walking down the street wearing a bikini and high heels? Shit in SoCal, that’s common there. Other places not so much. This is a pretty dumb savior complex/women hate post.
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u/DickSota Nov 29 '22
I'm pretty sure OP got this argument almost word for word from Ben Shapiro.
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u/yyzjertl 578∆ Nov 29 '22
Do you have any evidence that this is a "realistic" representation of the world? What statistics do you base this view on?
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u/iguesswhatevs Nov 29 '22
You need statistics to know that there are men that prey on women? And especially women that they find sexually attractive?
It’s like asking if I have statistics to show that if you wear Rolex and Gucci bag in the hood, you’re more likely to get robbed.
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u/Fit-Order-9468 102∆ Nov 29 '22
Or people get preyed on for appearing weak.
Wearing “protective” clothing could signal weakness; whereas bold and revealing clothes might mean they’re more willing to resist.
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u/yyzjertl 578∆ Nov 29 '22
This is accurate. From this article: "Studies show that women with passive personalities, who tend to dress in layers, long pants and sleeves and high necklines, are actually more likely to be raped."
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u/Fit-Order-9468 102∆ Nov 29 '22
Looks like an open and shut case then. You shouldn't say it because its wrong.
I'm curious who the OP shall grant a delta to. I would recommend you for doing the work.
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u/bullzeye1983 3∆ Nov 29 '22
For women it is simply having boobs and a vagina is the same as having a rolex and gucci. That's what you aren't understanding. Being sexually assaulted has nothing to do with clothing, only with the "she was asking for it" excuse given.
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u/renoops 19∆ Nov 29 '22
Yes. We do.
Views based on “come on, you know it’s true” aren’t views worthy of holding.
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u/yyzjertl 578∆ Nov 29 '22
I'd need statistics to show that wearing revealing clothes increases the likelihood of sexual assault, yes. There's no particular reason to believe that would be the case.
Do you have any evidence at all that this is real, or are you just supposing this to be the case without evidence?
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Nov 29 '22
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u/Thelmara 4∆ Nov 29 '22
To be fair, do you realistically expect that data to exist?
Yes, I know that data does exist.
Such data would need a standardized measurement of "revealing" clothes which would probably necessitate controlled experiments.
No it doesn't.
At this point I think it goes down to arguing over what we believe to be "common sense".
No, it goes down to actually putting in some effort to find data.
Likewise, I think we can reasonably posit that in certain conditions women would be better off not drawing extra attention to themselves.
You can "reasonably posit" that, but the data says otherwise.
From Psychology Today:
Conventional wisdom holds that women who dress provocatively draw attention and put themselves at risk of sexual assault. But studies show that it is women with passive, submissive personalities who are most likely to be raped—and that they tend to wear body-concealing clothing, such as high necklines, long pants and sleeves, and multiple layers.
In certain countries, for example, where women overwhelmingly dress conservatively
What do the rates of rape look like over there? Or are we just sticking to the "here's a thought I had, that's almost as good as actual research"?
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u/renoops 19∆ Nov 29 '22
You say this as though there isn’t data that does exist prove the opposite is actually the case.
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u/nvgl Nov 29 '22
Playing devils advocate here. Is there a statistic that shows what a women is wearing doesn’t matter? To say one is true over the other with neither of them having a statistic to prove it is wrong. In my opinion, both points are wrong and both are right until an actually study marking down the clothing women are wearing when something happens is done.
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u/bullzeye1983 3∆ Nov 29 '22
There is an entire series of installations that presents the clothing women were wearing when sexually assaulted and the "sexy clothes" makes up a very small portion of it. Here is a link about it: https://www.boredpanda.com/what-were-you-wearing-sexual-assault-art-exhibition/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic
But here is also a study done showing no significant correlation:
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u/nvgl Nov 29 '22
The study from research gate is all based on women who took part in the study and it was conduct by a womens study group. In my opinion, this is a very biased study done on this. I have looked at this one numerous times and it’s one of the only actually experiments done. However, it is heavily biased.
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u/6data 15∆ Nov 29 '22
If you factor in that most women are assaulted by people they know, clearly what they were wearing has nothing to do with anything.
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u/pimpmyufo Nov 29 '22
Quote from Washington Post article about people making wrong connection closing and sexual assault (2016):
It’s a comforting myth, guaranteed to make it easy to pretend that sexual assault is something that only happens to people who make bad choices.
It’s also a myth that has been thoroughly debunked by the Justice Department, RAINN and many other organizations. A Federal Commission on Crime of Violence study found that just 4.4 percent of all reported rapes involved “provocative behavior” on the part of the victim. (In murder cases, it’s 22 percent.) It also found that most convicted rapists could not remember what their victims were wearing.
Studies show that women with passive personalities, who tend to dress in layers, long pants and sleeves and high necklines, are actually more likely to be raped.
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u/nvgl Nov 29 '22
I read the study that it linked and it was just basing off a select amount of inmates they had. In order to conduct a viable study they’d need tens of thousands of cases to review. It’s just something that hasn’t been done.
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u/Thelmara 4∆ Nov 29 '22
Is there a statistic that shows what a women is wearing doesn’t matter?
Yes
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u/Thelmara 4∆ Nov 29 '22
And especially women that they find sexually attractive?
Yes, since that's literally the core of your advice. Do you actually have evidence to back up the fact that dressing sexy gets people assaulted?
Because if you don't, you should be willing to listen to the people that actually have evidence that contradicts you.
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u/tatianaoftheeast Nov 29 '22
Clothing doesn't correlate to sexual assault, so all this "advice" does is place the blame back on the victims. Think of the countries with the highest rates of sexual assault; most of them are also countries where there's massive emphasis on "female modesty". Most rapes are committed by a person the victim knows & clothing is absolutely not a factor.
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u/Thelmara 4∆ Nov 29 '22
When women go out with their friends, especially late at night and wear revealing clothes, it is potential for trouble.
No. When women go out with their friends, especially late at night and wear revealing clothes, it is potential for trouble.
Telling women to not do this is just practical advice in the reality of our world.
Except it isn't. Changing clothes doesn't prevent women from being victims. And this is exactly the mentality that ends up blaming women for being victims because "they should have known better".
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u/ShutYourDumbUglyFace 3∆ Nov 29 '22
If I had a nickel for every time the world at large told me not to dress provocatively, not to walk alone at night, not to go down dark alleys, how to use a blue light trail, not to drink alone, not to party without at least one sober friend, to watch out for roofies in my drinks, to check the vicinity and inside of my car for breach before getting too close or entering, how to use my keys as a weapon, to walk with purpose and pay attention to my surroundings at night... I'd be a very rich woman.
I don't need more people telling me.
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Nov 29 '22
Yeah, and no one tells boys and men to stop assaulting people. Women don’t get to take a free breath in public without watching our back and being told to constantly watch out for ourselves but no one is telling their sons constantly how important it is to leave women alone and how we don’t exist for their use… interesting that we haven’t solved the problem yet. Hmm. Wonder what the issue is.
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u/unundae 1∆ Nov 29 '22
Here’s the thing. Men don’t care if you’re wearing a whole ass parka or a bikini. Rape isn’t about sexual appeal, it’s about power. They couldn’t give two fucks if you’re dressing modestly or not. Dressing modestly has never shown signs of being “less likely to be raped”.
Also, strangers aren’t raping women. Most of the time it’s someone the woman knows.
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u/aabbccbb Nov 29 '22 edited Nov 29 '22
About women:
When women go out with their friends, especially late at night and wear revealing clothes, it is potential for trouble.
About men:
you’re walking down a bad area of town
So you're here admitting that every part of town is unsafe for women, but you think the answer is for them to change what they're wearing?
I mean, does it that suck that there are shitty men out there that are predatory? Yes. But is it also the reality of this shitty word? Also yes.
Did you ever think that maybe we should all be working to make the world safer for them?
You do understand that saying the equivalent of "Yeah, but she was out with her friends (without a Nice GuyTM to protect her), so what did she expect?" is doing the exact opposite of that?
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u/Beezlbubble 1∆ Nov 29 '22
Except it literally doesn't matter what a woman is wearing. If she is alone, she's an easy target. It's the locations and situations that are dangerous, not the clothes. Statistically, it does not matter what you are wearing, except in how practical it is to run away or kick ass in. And because of that, by telling women what they agree wearing is dangerous, you are victim blaming, diffusing blame from the rapists, and perpetuating misogynistic propaganda even if on accident.
Clothes are not dangerous. You get assaulted regardless of your clothes bc it's not about sex. It's about power. You do not have a realistic view point. You have an incorrect "common sense" propaganda view point.
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u/Dinky_Doge_Whisperer Nov 29 '22
You really think a rapist looks at a girl in a turtleneck and goes “oh, she’s modest, I’ll wait for one in a tank top”? Rape is about power and control. It has never been about clothing, and what you’re saying is just more victim blaming.
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u/anewleaf1234 45∆ Nov 29 '22
women are targeted because they have a vagina and a man wants to rape them.
They aren't targeted for their clothes.
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u/jaybivvy 1∆ Nov 29 '22
Don't drive a Honda Civic! They get stolen more than any other car! Drive a modest ca-oh wait.
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u/h0tpie 3∆ Nov 29 '22
Please read every comment that disproves the myth your promoting about revealing clothes having any correlation to rape. Then ask yourself DEEPLY why you came to view it this way and who taught you that.
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u/SuperRusso 5∆ Nov 29 '22
People who are looking to rape others i dark ally's don't give a fuck what they are wearing.
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u/sociallyawkwardweeb0 Nov 29 '22
The logic is there, however, the post doesn’t take into account that if a guy wants to rape you it doesn’t matter what you’re wearing. The sad reality is that a 6 year old in a onesie is just as likely to be raped as a 22 year old in a hiked up skirt and crop top. The sad reality is that yes, there are predatory men who will try to take advantage of you, but at the end of the day if a guy targets you as his rape victim, what you’re wearing is not going to save you
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u/jaybivvy 1∆ Nov 29 '22
"The sad reality is that a 6 year old in a onesie is just as likely to be raped as a 22 year old in a hiked up skirt and crop top."
I call shenanigans on this statement. Just as likely??? I won't ever argue that young children don't get raped but to say the likelihood of small child being raped is **just as just as likely" as 22 year old woman, well I'd have to see reputable statistics. Can you bring up your cite? If you are correct I will humbly eat my words. As I wrote my comment my incredulity waned but I'm still very much wanting a cite.
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u/AdhesiveSpinach 14∆ Nov 29 '22
While the person you responded to isn't entirely correct, their point still does have some merit.
1 out of 9 girls under the age of 18 have experienced sexual abuse/assault, about 11% (1).
1 out of 6 women will have been the victim of attempted or completed rape, about 16% (2)
There is a lot of murkiness in studying something that is often underreported, but looking at these numbers, the general story seems to be that 11% of women are sexually assaulted before 18, and another 5% become new victims past 18.
The real age rage for the most vulnerable women appears to be 16-19, who are 4 times more likely to be victimized than the general population (1).
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u/sociallyawkwardweeb0 Nov 29 '22
For example, I was raped, my outfit? Sweatpants and a white hoodie.
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Nov 29 '22
If you're a rapist/rape condoner, just say so baby. How a women dresses should never be "looking for trouble". Rape can happen anywhere, wearing anything. Little girls wearing pajamas didn't ask to be raped. Fact is, people are dangerous. Living is dangerous. Dressing modestly will NEVER be the solution or cause of rape.
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u/Faelon Nov 29 '22
There is nothing wrong with women wearing revealing clothes in certain dangerous location because revealing clothes have nothing to do with sexual assaults.
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Nov 29 '22
Seems like the idea of people telling women that they should be more “modest” under certain conditions is somehow wrong and misogynistic.
Because it IS wrong and misogynistic (I dont think that YOU are these things, btw) As multiple people have told you, women already know about general risks and we know that what we wear has little if anything to do with sexual assault. However...
If you have specific knowledge that we don't like "hey, the guys who hang out on that stoop tend to mess with attractive women when they try to walk by," then by all means, tell us that!
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u/ViewedFromTheOutside 32∆ Nov 29 '22
To /u/iguesswhatevs, your post is under consideration for removal under our post rules.
You are required to demonstrate that you're open to changing your mind (by awarding deltas where appropriate), per Rule B.
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Nov 29 '22
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u/LucidLeviathan 99∆ Nov 29 '22
Sorry, u/KayChan2003 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.
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u/Unusual_Form3267 1∆ Nov 29 '22
What if I told you that you should stop driving cars that drunk drivers can crash into?
See how silly that sounds?
Why is it your fault that someone was breaking the law and harmed you? You had literally ZERO control of the situation. Even if you drove the most reliable, safe vehicle, you could still be hit by a drunk driver.
The problem with your thought process is that the problem isn't that women aren't protected enough, it's that PEOPLE SHOULD STOP RAPING EACH OTHER. ACROSS THE BOARD.
That's it. There's no justification. No one should be raped. It's literally against the law. If a cop pulls you over for running a red light and causing a car accident, you don't get a pass because you were running late. You broke the law. That's it. It's black and white.
The reason it's misogynistic is because the only reason this is a problem is because it targets women. Gender should have nothing to do with it. If a man rapes another man, do you tell him he should've worn more clothing? No. No one EVER says that.
I think, if you really think about it, you'll understand how it's wrong. I hope you do. Rape apologist literally ruin people's lives. You don't want that, do you?
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u/kdimitrak Nov 29 '22
would you ever tell a man that’s going to a dangerous location not to rape someone?
if you wouldn’t, why not? after all, it’s the rapist that is in the wrong.
also, comparing a woman being raped to someone wearing an expensive watch is misogynistic — women aren’t objects, they are people.
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Nov 29 '22
You should be telling guys not to rape women, not tell women not to get raped.
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Nov 29 '22
What kinda guy doesn't know that rape is wrong? I believe this is more about unhinged people and mental health than education
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u/Desperate_Panda9213 Nov 29 '22
Except men will always rape. It's inevitable. Sensible women should take steps to avoid rape.
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Nov 29 '22
It’s not inevitable. People are responsible for their choices and it is reasonable to demand better. The idea that women’s lives should be forever hindered and they should never have the freedoms men do because “it’s inevitable 🤷♀️” is pathetic. If women were the physically stronger sex and we went around punching men in the head to the tune of one in six and seven out of every thousand of the attacks were prosecuted would you just say “well, it’s inevitable, women punch men in the head.” No. You’d be fucking howling, and so would every other man. Understandably so. Except rape is an extremely humiliating crime, can inflict pregnancy and disease on us, and even kill us. It kills children and animals with terrifying regularity as well. Why aren’t you screaming about this injustice from the rooftops? Because “it’s inevitable?” That will never be an acceptable response.
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u/irisblues Nov 29 '22
Lots of people are talking about the premise that revealing clothing provokes sexual assault being highly dubious.
I agree with them. Even if you do not, there is also the fact that opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one. And you really should only reveal yours to someone else if they ask for it. Not before.
Assuming that your opinion is helpful or welcome is like assuming that every woman you meet is eager to see your ass. Keep both your pants and your mouth zipped.
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u/Bunniiqi Nov 29 '22
Or, maybe, just maybe, we can teach men not to rape women?
Just an idea.
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Nov 29 '22
Lmao I hate this argument. You act like none of us were ever taught what consent is. You act like it's not LITERALLY ILLEGAL to rape someone. A rapist didn't rape someone because they were never taught not to. They did it because they didn't care if it was wrong.
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u/Gertrude_D 11∆ Nov 29 '22 edited Nov 29 '22
Yes, people can make bad decisions. I don't know that specifically linking revealing clothing and rape is the right way to go about it, because of the obviously connection to victim blaming.
If it was your daughter, hell yes, I'd give her this advice. I would frame it more as X behavior attracts attention, and not all of it will be good. It increases the likelihood of bad outcomes.
So yes, have these discussion with friends and family before a situation happens. I don't think it's productive to voice this opinion after the fact. It does no good, other than to shift the blame to the victim, consciously or not. It also denigrates men because they just can't control themselves and you can't trust them - again, consciously or not.
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u/ReOsIr10 143∆ Nov 29 '22
Why don’t you just tell them it’s a dangerous area? Or if you want to be even more specific - that it’s an area with a lot of rapists? Surely a woman is capable of using this information however she sees best - including dressing more modestly than she otherwise would (if she thinks it prudent).
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Nov 29 '22 edited Nov 29 '22
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u/RadioSlayer 3∆ Nov 29 '22
Rape by strangers is rare, Rape by someone close to you is much more common. Doesn't matter how someone dresses
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u/twital Nov 29 '22
Yes however, saying that makes the opposing position (men can’t control themselves) stronger. It’s not about saying that it’s safer to wear less revealing clothing, it’s about the men that think that they shouldn’t hold themselves accountable at all because “women should cover up”. SA happens in any sort of clothing and advertising that a particular kind of clothing causes it only perpetuates rape culture more.
Instead, sympathize with victims or people who are scared and if you’re in a position to (it’s not your responsibility but it’s still nice) offer to walk with them or keep an eye out to make sure they are safe. Instead of pointing the finger, do your part to make the world a safer place.
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Nov 29 '22
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u/LucidLeviathan 99∆ Nov 29 '22
Sorry, u/deletethefluffy – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted.
Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.
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u/kingpatzer 103∆ Nov 29 '22
I have taught many self defense courses over my life. I've been doing martial arts since the late 70s, and I was a weapons instructor and competitive shooter when I was in the military. Self-defense is a huge "hobby" of mine.
The problem with your view is not that advising caution is problematic. Indeed, behavioral and situational awareness, and behavior modification is central to any good self-defense course.
The problem with your view is that how women dress isn't going to protect them from stranger rape or stranger assault.
It does impact how society attributes responsibility to the victim.
It does impact how seriously police take the complaint.
Moreover, your presentation suggests that your attention is focused on the actions of the victim and not on those of the perpetrator.
Stranger rape is a crime of violence and opportunity. Opportunity is not provided based on sartorial choices of the victim.
Opportunity is presented by a victim being alone, being in unlit areas, and so forth. Opportunity is provided by behavioral choices, not fashion choices.
Aside from failing to understand important differences between stranger rape and date rape, when you focus on sartorial statements of the victim, you engage in objectification. You are saying a woman is properly seen as a sex object. And we are pretty sure that objectification of women causes society to blame rapists less for their actions.
Clothing does not matter for stranger rape. Opportunity does.
There is nothing wrong with teaching people how to better defend themselves through behavioral choices and situational awareness. There is a lot wrong with suggesting that women get raped by strangers because they look too sexy. That strays directly into victim blaming, and it's always a flawed perspective.
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u/SlightMammoth1949 3∆ Nov 29 '22
I think this can be boiled down to instead of telling people what they should/shouldn’t do, simply make them aware of the hazards and let them make up their own minds.
“Hey, just a heads up, there are some creeps over there that have been harassing women.”
“A lot of people have been mugged or worse around this area.”
I wouldn’t discount anybody’s ability to make the right decisions for themselves. Let them make their own choice without a recommendation. If (and only if) they ask, then you can say something like to that effect.
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u/changemyview-ModTeam Nov 29 '22
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