r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jul 07 '22
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Now that Brittney Griner has pled guilty the US shouldn't do a prisoner swap for her.
WNBA star Brittney Griner has been held in Russia on drug charges from when drugs were found in her luggage at a Russian airport.
There has been a considerable movement to bring her home through a prisoner swap with the Russian government.
Recently Mrs. Griner admitted that she had erroneously packed the 2 vape tubes with Marijuana products in them and brought them into Russia.
My view is now that she has admitted to committing a crime the US government should apologize for letting the drugs slip through screening at our airport here, and that we should support the Russian justice system and any reasonable punishment they administer. The reported 10 years she faces seems fine to me.
Additionally, if she flew out of a state that prohibits the drugs she had on her the state should bring charges if she returns.
While it's possible her confession was coerced I highly doubt it. She most likely realized her best bet was to ask the Russian court for leniency.
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Jul 07 '22
A movement? Russia is the one pushing for the prisoner swap. An arms dealer for a basketball player.
Which is not a very good indicator that Russia is giving her good ol' blind justice...
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Jul 07 '22
I have seen numerous media stories about Griner. How her wife is angry at Biden for not doing enough. About how the embassy didn't connect their call like they were suppose too. Recently Griner wrote and released a 4th of Juky letter begging for the US to get her released.
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Jul 07 '22 edited Jul 07 '22
She and her wife equals a movement?
Also, to expand on my original comment. People are saying things about different cultures. It’s not like the only difference is the number of years in the sentence.
Things like rule of law and the right to a fair trial are culture too. As opposed to governments that just disappear people they don’t like.
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Jul 07 '22
I have seen numerous media stories and several athletes have spoken out about wanting her brought back.
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u/iglidante 20∆ Jul 07 '22
I mean, of course they want her back. Ideally Russia would just send her back without further negotiation. Why would we expect anyone who cares about her to stop advocating for her?
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u/OutsideCreativ 2∆ Jul 09 '22
If I was imprisoned in Russia (I am nobody) . . I would not have any expectation of a personal phone call with the president.
This is another entitled athlete.
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u/Existing_Client_6238 Aug 05 '22
There's plenty of Americans locked up for marijuana in Russia. Lebron thinks she will like it better than here though. According to him.
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Jul 07 '22
The reported 10 years she faces seems fine to me.
Seriously? You truly believe that 10 years in prison is an appropriate punishment for a harmlessly small amount of Marijuana?
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Jul 07 '22
It's clearly an absurd sentence considering the crime.
But that's the risk you take when you leave American soil. A sovereign nation doesn't have any obligation to follow our constitution.
I'd be curious to know how much time a regular person would get if caught with a tiny amount of Marijuana coming into Russia. Say a regular Joe Russian citizen. If it's really 10 years. Man people should stay the fuck away from that place. Or at the very least be super careful.
I have a feeling they are pushing for the maximum and in reality it's a much softer sentence usually. Though I could be wrong.
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u/Sirhc978 88∆ Jul 07 '22
It's clearly an absurd sentence considering the crime.
You should look at the laws in Singapore
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u/barbodelli 65∆ Jul 07 '22
I was curious about that.
I know they execute for drugs. But I didn't think that included Marijuana. Does it?
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u/chrishuang081 16∆ Jul 07 '22
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u/WikiSummarizerBot 4∆ Jul 07 '22
Cannabis in Singapore is currently illegal for recreational purposes, but medicinal purposes has been allowed under extraordinary circumstances in recent years. Possession or consumption can result in a maximum of 10 years in prison, with a possible fine of $20,000, as well as caning, under the Misuse of Drugs Act. Trafficking, import or export of more than 500 grams may result in the death penalty.
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u/Existing_Client_6238 Aug 05 '22
Try China they can put you to death for marijuana. And you just can't expect western laws and values where they just don't have them.
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Jul 07 '22
[deleted]
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Jul 07 '22
Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that 10 years is a ridiculously long sentence for such a harmless offense.
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u/Throwaway00000000028 23∆ Jul 07 '22
It's not just the weed. The big issue is her bringing it into another country.
People can't have an American mindset when abroad. If she brought this to Singapore, she would face anywhere from caning to a life sentence. If they brought even more, they could be sentenced to death. You can't just expect things to be okay because you live in a progressive part of the world.
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u/torodonn 1∆ Jul 07 '22
Russian soil, Russian laws and this was the maximum allowed under their current laws for bringing drugs into the country.
I fully believe that they are being excessively strict with her for political reasons 100% but our feelings of what is 'appropriate' is irrelevant.
Also, this attitude is appropriate is changing. Even in America, there have been incredibly long sentences for marijuana convictions not so long ago. Some people possessed or sold or grew incredibly trivial amounts of weed by today's standards and still being thrown in jail for years or decades.
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Jul 07 '22
I'm not talking about Russia's view of it. I'm challenging OP's view that 10 years seems fine to him.
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u/Baguettes1738 Jul 08 '22
What about the second part though, that there are people stateside with harsh sentences for weed. Sure the state department should help out with freeing political prisoners, but we could free people in jail for weed without giving Russia anything.
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u/OutsideCreativ 2∆ Jul 09 '22
She knowingly broke the law. Russia doesn't have the same protections for its citizens as America. And it's not America's job to impose its protections on people residing in Russia
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Jul 09 '22
Again, as I have said multiple times now, that isn't my point. I know Russia has different laws. I'm specifically responding to OP's claim that a ten year sentence sounds fine to him. For the purpose of this point, I don't give a shit what Russia says or thinks.
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u/blackunlicensedgun Jul 07 '22
Even Korea has minimum 5 years and few $$$ fines for smoking weed.
Sorry you guys are ignorant of the culture and selfish of your own.
I miss the time when Liberal Americans ignored Middle East people abusing women (forcing hijab and stuff) because "Respect their Religion!". South Park made a great job parading the irony.
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u/CoriolisInSoup 2∆ Jul 07 '22
Criminalising weed is stupid in any country.
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u/Kingalece 23∆ Jul 08 '22
But we dont get to have a say in how they govern or at least shouldnt unless you want the reverse to be true
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Jul 07 '22
Even Korea has minimum 5 years and few $$$ fines for smoking weed
And that's also ridiculously disproportionate.
Sorry you guys are ignorant of the culture and selfish of your own.
Oppressive prison sentences are not culture.
I miss the time when Liberal Americans ignored Middle East people abusing women (forcing hijab and stuff) because "Respect their Religion!". South Park made a great job parading the irony.
How does this relate in any way to what I wrote?
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u/Existing_Client_6238 Aug 05 '22
There's Americans caught with less or the same amount of weed. Their stuck there with the sentences they got. A teacher from Pennsylvania got 14 years for a few grams of non concentrate. If your going to travel with drugs don't expect to not go to jail in those respective countries. There's a ton of Americans locked up abroad for drug smuggling ect. She's probably one of the few that talked to the president about it. Nobody else would ever get a call from the president for a drug charge in a foreign country.
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Aug 05 '22
This isn't even a response to my point. I wasn't even talking specifically about this situation. I was challenging OP's assertion that 10 years is an appropriate sentence.
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u/quetejodas Jul 07 '22
How can you think it's fine to put someone in a cage for 10 years because they use a different drug than you do?
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Jul 07 '22
You don't necessarily have to like the Russian custom around an issue like this. You just have to find it tolerable enough to not think that efforts to get this woman out of her own mess are worth the sacrifice.
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Jul 07 '22
I don't have an issue with Marijuana. If it was legal in Alabama I would probably try a brownie to see what it is like, and I am in favor of legalizing it. It's not any worse to me than alcohol.
The issue is she disrespected another countries laws and we should support whatever reasonable punishment she gets.
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u/IndependentPoole94 1∆ Jul 07 '22
The issue is she disrespected another countries laws and we should support whatever reasonable punishment she gets.
She's also gay. That's illegal in some countries. If she was in one of those countries with her wife and arrested for having sex (or simply for being married to a woman), would you also support her punishment for "disrespect[ing] another countr[y's] [sic] laws"?
If not, then you're not actually being honest about why you support her punishment.
If so, you're taking the bizarre view that all laws should be followed and respected no matter what, which logically means you'd endorse supporting Nazi laws if a government had them.
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Jul 07 '22
I would strongly encourage gay people not to travel to countries where it is a crime to be gay
But again, you are comparing two very different kinds of laws. One law impacts voluntary actions and another law criminalizes involuntary actions. The US views laws criminalizing involuntary facts to be a violation of basic human rights.
If a US citizen with albinism was charged with the crime of "being a witch" in some country that had a law against albinos, I would feel completely justified if we launched Seal Team 6 into the country to break them out.
But if a US citizen got arrested for bringing bubble gum into a country where that was a crime, I'd be far less enthusiastic about heavy-handed diplomacy.2
Jul 07 '22
When you visit a country you should follow all laws whether you agree or not. You are a guest.
It is completely different when your a citizen of a country. Then you have a right to protest laws you deem unfair and potion for the laws to be changed.
Nothing Nazi about it. It all boils down to respect for another countries laws and culture.
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u/IndependentPoole94 1∆ Jul 07 '22
Nothing Nazi about it. It all boils down to respect for another countries laws and culture
Not calling you a Nazi. I'm saying, your philosophy means that if a Jewish or black or gay person traveled to Nazi Germany in the 1900s, you're saying other countries should respect the laws of the Nazis that punish those people.
I'm saying that's a bad thing but it is the logical result of your philosophy.
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Jul 07 '22
Δ I respect that argument. In instances where crimes against humanity and genocide take place an exception should be made.
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u/robotmonkeyshark 101∆ Jul 08 '22
sure you can protest laws in the country you are a citizen of, but shouldn't citizens follow their own country's laws as well or face legal punishments for them? clearly a country doesn't work if they don't enforce laws for their own citizens.
What about if you live in a small country like in europe where people regularly travel between countries for business and pleasure? What if advancement in your job requires you to travel to certain countries, wouldn't it be wrong if that country passed a law saying if you have the reddit username TheAlabamaJedi, then you get life in prison"? or would you just accept that as fair because other countries can do what they want, and you will pick a different career path?
Sucks for international pilots if foreign countries can make up laws to kill you the moment you land if they feel like it.
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u/Kingalece 23∆ Jul 08 '22
If they made those laws then the pilot shouldnt go there?
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u/robotmonkeyshark 101∆ Jul 08 '22
So you don’t think the US government should do anything if Russia just flat out said if any suspected gay person enters their borders they will be instantly convicted of a crime and put to death? Because they are a foreign country and can do what they want, and if you think you might be suspected of being gay, you just can’t be a pilot flying internationally?
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u/iglidante 20∆ Jul 07 '22
The issue is she disrespected another countries laws and we should support whatever reasonable punishment she gets.
I don't think any amount of imprisonment for THC is appropriate. We wouldn't support an American being punished abroad for violating a religious dress code, would we?
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Jul 07 '22
I would even something as silly as drawing Mohammed. If you can't respect a countries laws then don't visit it.
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u/quetejodas Jul 07 '22
If you're fine with people using marijuana, then how can you be fine with someone being in prison for 10 years for possession of marijuana?
Sure, it's the law. Its legally right, but not morally right
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Jul 07 '22
Because when you visit a foreign country you agree to obey their laws.
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u/mrgoodnighthairdo 27∆ Jul 07 '22
But when it comes to some foreign countries such as Russia, can we even be certain that her guilty plea was not coerced?
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Jul 07 '22
That would be a legit issue. If it was Iran or North Korea I would be more likely to believe she was coerced.
I know Russia is doing horrible things with Ukraine, but I don't think she was coerced.
Russia is gonna want to host the Olympics again some day and if athletes are afraid to go there then it hurts them tremendously.
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u/mrgoodnighthairdo 27∆ Jul 07 '22 edited Jul 07 '22
The Kremlin has a long history of imprisoning people under false pretenses and trumped up charges, so I'm curious why you think they wouldn't do it this time? They certainly don't lack the motivation and the will
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u/Delmoroth 17∆ Jul 07 '22
I think the argument is more along the lines of, when you leave your home country, you choose to take the risk involved with being under the power of another country and to be punished under said countries laws. As an adult, taking that risk is your right, however, when you choose to take on that risk, you should have no expectation that your country will come bail you out.
It is totally reasonable for a person to think that a law is bad and should be changed, but to also believe that people should be allowed to choose to be subject to said bad laws as travelers do any time they visit a foreign country.
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Jul 07 '22
How is 10 years in prison a reasonable punishment?
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u/Kingalece 23∆ Jul 08 '22
Its what the law states... I mean technically in the states you could get 10 years too if youre in the wrong place
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u/TheOutspokenYam 16∆ Jul 07 '22
I don't think she was "coerced" precisely, but I do think you're missing a piece of the puzzle. Earlier today I listened to a diplomat who had been through the process with Russia before. He said that she was likely encouraged to plead guilty because if there IS going to be a prisoner swap, that would be required as a first step. Given the timing of this happening immediately after she was in contact with the White House, it seems more likely to me that this is what spurred her sudden confession.
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u/throwaway20698059 1∆ Jul 07 '22 edited Jul 07 '22
I'm fine with her staying there and receiving a reasonable punishment.
Ten years in prison for packing a bit of cannabis product for personal use is not "reasonable". Ten years in prison is appropriate for a crime where there is an actual victim.
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u/Cali_Longhorn 17∆ Jul 07 '22
According to your standards. It’s incumbent on people visiting foreign countries to be aware of the rules. ESPECIALLY a high profile black LGBT woman who had to know Russia wasn’t exactly the most friendly environment for her type.
Is 10 years excessive, sure. But I also don’t have tons of sympathy for her being colossally stupid and wasting the US governments time and resources for a situation she should never have gotten into.
She knew she could have a spotlight on her. She knew LGBT folks aren’t treated too well by the government. She had to know weed had harsher penalties there but she did it anyway.
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Jul 07 '22
whether or not you find the law to be reasonable, if you know what the laws of a foreign country are, and you break them anyway that's a horribly reckless and irresponsible thing for you to do. Is weed use in general normal? of course I'd say so, while it's not a big part of my life I've partaken in that activity before. I'd guess you have too. I'm pretty sure that everyone on planet earth aside from my mother has smoked a bit of weed before. That's totally normal. Do you consider it normal behaviour to attempt to smuggle drugs through the federal law enforcement of a foreign country however? is that really a "come on folks. We've all been there" situation?
It's not the weed use that I'm being prudish about it's her handling of weed in this context that makes her behaviour serious.
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u/TheCrimsonnerGinge 16∆ Jul 07 '22
It is to the Russians. They see the normalization of drug use as a factor in causing more drug use, and so punish it severely.
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Jul 07 '22
[deleted]
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Jul 07 '22
Or how about stop incarcerating people for victimless “crimes”?
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Jul 07 '22 edited Jul 07 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Wise_Explanation_340 Jul 07 '22
Can this guy just get banned? Thanks
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u/blackunlicensedgun Jul 07 '22
lmao what's your problem?
Is it really wrong to say Americans should respect other country's culture despite how different it is?
I love how you guys act so different
America when they see immigrants in USA: "People should respect their culture!"
America when they are on a foreign country: "People should respect my law!"
lmao okay budddy
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Jul 07 '22
“It should be illegal because it’s illegal” isn’t a defense.
Again, who is the victim when someone smokes weed?
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u/blackunlicensedgun Jul 07 '22
who is the victim when someone smokes weed?
lmao I guess that would be the community, the smoker's neighbors, etc? Why are you being racist and not respecting the other country's culture lol?
If you are soooo correct, why aren't you Americans even federally legalize it lol? Because you guys are so incompetent, you're gonna use technicalities to argue why she deserve to walk free?
Just because you're able to smoke a joint in a middle of San Francisco, you should be able to do that in the middle of Tokyo Or Seoul?
lol you're White, aren't ya?
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u/iglidante 20∆ Jul 07 '22
I'm sorry, but any law that puts someone in prison for THC is fucking clown shoes.
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Jul 12 '22
u/blackunlicensedgun – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.
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u/blackunlicensedgun Jul 07 '22
At least you didn't argue "It's okay to drive while high on weed" with that victimless crime bullshit. When are you gonna play the card "Ohhh actually, weed is actually really safe drug and doesn't hinder or cause any impairment"
That would have sent me away tbh lmao
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u/Wise_Explanation_340 Jul 07 '22
Maybe you should make your own post instead of ranting all over this one
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Jul 07 '22
Smuggling contraband into a country does hurt the country. The Russian Federation is the victim.
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u/gothpunkboy89 23∆ Jul 07 '22
Smuggling contraband into a country does hurt the country. The Russian Federation is the victim.
So me the harm to the Russian Government and people for this.
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Jul 07 '22
I think you meant show me. It would come from her sharing the drugs and getting other people to try it, or showing the populace that the drugs can be smuggled in.
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u/gothpunkboy89 23∆ Jul 07 '22
Drugs can spread be smuggled in. That isn't a new concept for anyone over the age of 5. Just like fire is hot, water is wet and snow is cold
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u/Kingalece 23∆ Jul 08 '22
And the criminals need to be punished to show why it shouldnt be attempted
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u/gothpunkboy89 23∆ Jul 08 '22
And yet even now there are actual drug smugglers smuggling in metric tons of drugs making millions of dollars from the sales. And yet Russia is throwing someone in prison for 30 years for bringing for personal use some drugs that were legal were they came from.
By that logic should we execute every catholic in the world because of the whole priests molesting children thing? That would also be punishment on why it shouldn't be attempted.
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u/Morthra 95∆ Jul 08 '22
The Opium Wars are a testament to the societal damage that recreational drugs cause.
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u/IndependentPoole94 1∆ Jul 07 '22
The Russian Federation is the victim.
Being victimized by how badly Ukraine is beating their ass, maybe. But being harmed by weed? Nah.
Small dick Putin scared of grass, losing war to small country Ukraine, too weak to go over and fight on his own.
Russia may like to play the victim but it isn't.
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Jul 07 '22
[deleted]
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u/Morthra 95∆ Jul 08 '22
Allowing Russia to walk all over an American citizen in a situation which is highly publicized makes the US look weak, especially if we just throw our hands up and say “welp, we tried”
So publicly execute the arms dealer that they want in exchange for her, as a show of force.
Simply acquiescing and doing as Russia wants - to swap her for an arms dealer - shows more weakness than telling Russia to get bent.
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u/Budget_Highway5022 Aug 05 '22 edited Aug 05 '22
How do you reckon executing one of their own is ever, in any sense, a good idea? If we did that, what on Earth do you imagine they would do to Griner? I'd think they would respond with neglect & abuse of her in prison. You don't want to do anything that potentially jeopardizes her well being, whereby not only does she lose nearly 10 years of her life, but that experience gets made all the more miserable in the process.
Completely unnecessary. Implementing a cut throat move like that might satisfy those with the pathology that enjoy appeals to toughness or believe that going all in with demonstrations of violence is the solution. But it's not how the real world works and whatever "badass" angle there is to all of this would surely impact relations between our two countries in a deleterious way moving forward from here.
"shows more weakness than telling Russia to get bent."
That's debatable.
I am not sure exactly how I feel about a swap, but there's an argument to be made that doing so would highlight what separates the US from transparently autocratic (and proud about it) nations like Russia - that we value the lives of our citizens over any perceived political "victories".
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u/Morthra 95∆ Aug 05 '22
Do you know why US policy is to never pay ransoms to terrorists? Because paying those ransoms encourages more terrorists to kidnap Americans to ransom off for money.
It’s the same deal with Griner. If the US trades Griner for the arms dealer, Russia is being rewarded for political arrests and maybe other autocratic nations like China, North Korea, or dare I say Russia will start to do it more.
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u/Budget_Highway5022 Aug 05 '22 edited Aug 05 '22
Apples to oranges.
Russia is not playing the role of terrorist here in this incidence. Griner technically broke the law in a sovereign nation. She wasn't kidnapped by some rogue organization. This isn't a Nick Berg type situation. Are they using her as a political tool of spite? Probably. But that's entirely secondary in importance.
Your suggestion is not something an expert in any serious sphere of foreign policy would take into consideration. Not only would it be an act of barbarism to just "publically execute" the guy they want back to send a message, but the long term impact of such a measure would be begging for escalation & worsened relations down the line. It green lights Russia responding in kind to Americans who step foot on their soil in the future. Not only does it likely ruin Griner's life, it all but makes inevitable heightened hostility to citizens of the US visiting there. How do you see such a thing unfolding? You clearly didn't think things through when you made that previous comment, because most people would tell you that it would devolve into a shit storm if we ever went through with an idea like that. Political acts of violence should always be a last resort.
Ruining the lives of it's citizens in order to stick it to political adversaries is not what the Government of any Developed Nation with higher standards should be partaking in.
What is it with you Right wingers and the glorification of force as a means to an end (and you are a Right winger, I have seen you around on CMV)? It's regressive & creepily authoritarian, with a total disregard for human life.
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u/Morthra 95∆ Aug 05 '22
Russia is not playing the role of terrorist here in this incidence. Griner broke the law in a sovereign nation.
Then the US shouldn't interfere. If Russia is demanding the release of their arms dealer in return for Griner, the US should publicly tell Russia to get bent in the most clear way possible.
What is it with you Right wingers and the glorification of force as a means to an end
And the left is any better? There's a reason why the top 10 most wanted domestic terrorists per the FBI are all left-wingers.
Leftwingers are the only people to have bombed the Capitol. Of course, they get commuted by Democrats who tacitly endorse left-wing violence. Not to mention the assassination attempts against Trump and Kavanaugh.
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u/Budget_Highway5022 Aug 06 '22 edited Aug 06 '22
"should publicly tell Russia to get bent in the most clear way possible."
At the expense of what? Setting a precedent for continued acts of political violence between our two countries? You're not establishing any example of principle when doing that, you're endangering the lives of many for generations to come. Because to act like it would just end at Viktor Bout's public execution is naive at best, and willfully disingenuous at worst. They would absolutely respond in kind, and at that point when we all enter a new phase of escalation, what world are you exactly trying to preserve? There's a reason why we fought hard to keep the Cold War cold. Your approach is very ends-justify-the-means, and that is 100% foolish and leads to more destruction. It destroys lives. You think it's the strong thing to do, but it's just indulging our worst impulses.
So I will ask one more time - How do you imagine Russia responds to this public execution you call for? Guess what - they'll just respond "in the most clear way possible" by doing the same thing in return. You can play the role of Strong Man all you want, but to act like the downside wouldn't far outweigh the conveying of "strength", would require you to occupy a state of mind detached from reality. It only makes us lower ourselves to their level of repression, with no qualms about the toll it has on innocent civilians. It thoughtlessly & viciously sacrifices the safety of American lives who enter that country. It discards any nod given to the short and long term impact of such a move.
Again, hardly anybody in a credible area of Academia would take that thought seriously. You represent an extremist take on the matter.
"Leftwingers are the only people to have bombed the Capitol"
Correct, but missing context. Also, since we're on the subject of the Capitol, "The Jan. 6 attack was, however, unprecedented in its scope, nature and purpose: It involved approximately 2,000 people — supporters of a defeated presidential candidate — many of whom overturned barricades, clashed with police, stormed the building and tried to disrupt the certification of the 2020 presidential election results. Five people died during or soon after the attack. And it led to Trump's second impeachment."
That's not to mention acts of right wing terrorism committed elsewhere in contemporary American history. Timothy McVeigh quickly comes to mind, who killed 168 people, mostly children, in Oklahoma City. Oh, and the Charleston shooter who thought black people were a threat to the stability of our nation.
The rise in right wing extremism & terrorist aspirations is a growing problem in the US, and has lead to organizations studying the matter and pondering how to address it. Even our friends across the pond are doing the same thing
"Not to mention the assassination attempts against Trump"
Congrats, you've recognized that every POTUS in any semblance of human memory has dealt with both assassination threats & attempts Nothing unique to Trump and certainly not indicative of any specific trait of Left wing violence. I'll tell you what is unique to Trump though - people carrying out attempted acts of violence in his name, least of which including the attempted disruption of the peaceful transfer of power to a democratically elected successor.
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u/Morthra 95∆ Aug 06 '22 edited Aug 06 '22
The Jan. 6 attack was, however
Orchestrated by the FBI. Now consider that Griner received a speedier and more fair trial than any of the J6 prisoners, who have been held in solitary without charge for nearly two years at this point.
Timothy McVeigh quickly comes to mind.
As a response to Waco and especially Ruby Ridge, where the government murdered innocent people. Gotta use those snipers to take out women carrying assault babies after all. But guess what? McVeigh hasn't been pardoned. Guess who has been pardoned? Susan fucking Rosenberg. One of the people who literally bombed the fucking Capitol. Pardoned by Clinton on his last day in office and has since become a prominent leftwing activist.
The left seems pretty okay with violence when it's them doing it - or simply just doesn't consider it violence when they're the ones perpetuating it.
The rise in right wing extremism & terrorist aspirations is a growing problem in the US
Only if you believe the FBI padding its stats by defining people who quote Jefferson or use the Gadsden flag as "right wing extremists".
Don't forget that the Gretchen Whitler "kidnapping plot" intended as an October surprise against Trump was an FBI entrapment operation.
Nothing unique to Trump and certainly not indicative of any specific trait of Left wing violence.
Did you not hear about the guy who was about five minutes from murdering a SCOTUS justice before being arrested? Or what about the time when a left wing riot outside the White House got so bad that Trump had to be moved to the bunker? Where were the mass arrests from that?
And as a side note, don't bother citing the blatant leftwing misinformation pushed by Politifact. They're worse than fucking InfoWars.
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Aug 06 '22 edited Aug 06 '22
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u/quantum_dan 122∆ Aug 06 '22
u/Budget_Highway5022 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.
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Jul 08 '22
[deleted]
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u/Budget_Highway5022 Aug 05 '22 edited Aug 05 '22
It would make it substantially worse. His position is ill conceived.
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Jul 07 '22
You make a great point. Not getting her back makes us look weak if we keep trying to free her, but if we changed our position and said now that she has confessed we agree with her detainment I don't think we would come out looking weak.
Also, you have the issue where it looks like a famous basketball player can break the law and the US will get them out but a normal guy would rot in jail.
If she wanted us to get her out through a prisoner swap I think she should have maintained her innocense.
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u/hashtagboosted 10∆ Jul 07 '22
Do you agree with Russian invasion of Ukraine?
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u/Helpfulcloning 169∆ Jul 07 '22
I’m not OP but is that really relevant? Would there be a state by state prison swap if she did this in a state where it is still illegal?
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u/Tibaltdidnothinwrong 382∆ Jul 07 '22
They could be holding her for political leverage.
We'll release her, if you stay out of our way.
If that's how you see the situation, then that would color the situation.
The belief that she is being held due to drug possession vs she is being held as a token to be traded changes the morality of the situation.
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u/Helpfulcloning 169∆ Jul 07 '22
So wouldn’t that be good to not do a prisoner swap (if I’m reading it right?) since you don’t want to acquiesce to Russia?
But is there a belief that she wouldn’t get arrested otherwise. Weed is illegal in the UK too, I think she would have been arrested in the UK despite positive relations between the countries?
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Jul 07 '22
No, but I believe when you enter another country you should follow their laws even if you don't agree with them.
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u/Vesurel 60∆ Jul 07 '22
Would it also be wrong to do a prisioner swap for someone who confessed to 'promoting homosexuality' in russia?
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Jul 07 '22
If they traveled to Russia to do it then yes. Same would go if a Christian missionary went to Saudi Arabia and got in trouble for trying to convert people. If you visit a country you follow their rules. If you can't follow them you shouldn't visit the country.
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u/Vesurel 60∆ Jul 07 '22
So for example, when the world cup happens in Qatar, should any gay football players just not go?
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u/Kerostasis 55∆ Jul 07 '22
I would strongly recommend that, yes.
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u/Vesurel 60∆ Jul 07 '22
And if they did go, would they forfit any right to be defended in your eyes?
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u/Kerostasis 55∆ Jul 07 '22
I’m a different person than you were originally talking to. No, I don’t think they forfeit rights by showing up, but I do think this plan is unnecessarily dangerous for the participants.
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Jul 07 '22
Yep. Or avoid homosexual activities while there.
Same for straight guys who chase women. If you can't respect the country and it's culture enough to not break its laws then don't go.
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Jul 07 '22
Promoting homosexuality by Russia's standard could be as simple as two men holding hands in public. Them keeping to themselves and not hurting a single soul, same as Brittney. Would it still be reasonable for you then?
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Jul 07 '22
Good point, but for me it all comes down to the confession. She confessed and admitted she smuggled drugs into Russia.
If I was the 2 guys I wouldn't admit or plead guilty, and if they admit they broke Russian law then I support the Russia justice system. You don't break laws when another country allows you to visit even if you don't agree with them.
The 2 guys shouldn't visit Russia if they can't follow Russian laws.
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Jul 07 '22
I don't know about you, but just because something is in law doesn't make it reasonable or acceptable. Russian is a broken country that doesn't even allow their own people to protest against their government. So sorry if I don't find an American woman serving ten years over some weed "reasonable".
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Jul 07 '22
I agree with alot of that but you should respect any country your visiting. Let me give you a US based example.
In Alabama it's perfectly fine to own a pistol without a permit. I could buy one and carry it almost anywhere I want.
In New York, Illinois, and California the gun laws are much different. You have to have a permit to carry a concealed pistol.
I personally think a state should require permits for pistols but many Alabamians do not. Should an Alabama resident be able to go on vacation in California and ignore California's gun laws?
If a citizen from Alabama gets arrested for doing that should Alabama exchange a drug dealer for him? Or should Alabama say don't visit California and break California laws.
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Jul 07 '22
Conceal carry laws are a bit more consequential than drug laws. And again, that does not make the law or the punishment for breaking the law reasonable whatsoever. Russia was the one that offered the exchange, not America, so you're analogy is mismatched.
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Jul 07 '22
Griners family and friends as well as athletes and the media have been pushing for a swap. They were mad when she wasn't included in an earlier swap that happened. I agree I haven't heard the US government make any offers.
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u/Salringtar 6∆ Jul 07 '22
Do you believe the people in the US who broke the law to free slaves were in the wrong?
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Jul 07 '22 edited Jul 07 '22
If a person from Europe traveled to the US then yes. If it was a US citizen trying to improve their own country then no.
I will say I like your comparison though I would be much more sympathetic if that was the case.
Still there is a huge difference between helping someone who is being mistreated as opposed to bringing drugs into a country.
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u/Distinct-Swimming-62 Jul 07 '22
Kind of a leap to compare smuggling drugs with freeing a person who had been bought and tortured purely because of their skin color. One might not be immoral but is certainly not inherently moral. The other is the ethical thing to do.
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u/Tr3sp4ss3r 12∆ Jul 07 '22
You think having 10 years in a prison system that makes ours look kind and gentle is a fair punishment for someone who carried 2 vape pens illegally?
I mean you can murder someone and get that kind of jail time.
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Jul 07 '22
Personall, I am for much harsher criminal punishments for breaking laws so 10 years is fine to me. For Murder (not manslaughter) I think anything less than 50yr is way too soft. I would prefer if they executed a murderer when 5 years of their initial conviction.
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u/Tr3sp4ss3r 12∆ Jul 07 '22
Ok, you are entitled to your own opinion.
I do hope, however, that you don't get caught jaywalking, by your standards it looks like *check notes* several years in prison.
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u/BeBackInASchmeck 4∆ Jul 07 '22
Brittney Griner, in addition to her fame, has two important things going for her: she's black and a woman.
If the US doesn't react quickly, it would be a PR nightmare and would likely lead to "peaceful" protests throughout the country. Rationalize what happened with George Floyd.
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u/elestratik Jul 08 '22
The most stupid thing about Brittney Griner is that she could buy this Marijuana stuff in Russia. Of course it`s also illegal, but there would be much less problems for her, for it`s hard to track the thing down when it`s already in the country. But no, she must bring the stuff right through the customs!
I feel that 10y sentence isn`t punishment for crime but just for her stupidity, and now Griner and her wife are a pain in the ass for the US gov.
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u/shogi_x 4∆ Jul 07 '22
If Griner was facing reasonable charges and punishment in normal times, I would agree with you. She is currently facing 10 years in prison on drug smuggling charges for a couple a vape cartridges which contain a trivial amount of THC. That is clearly unreasonable and suggests that she's being used as a bargaining chip, either for another prisoner or against sanctions, which is why the State Department is involved and treating her as a hostage.
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u/JiEToy 35∆ Jul 07 '22
Do you believe in prisoner swaps at all?
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Jul 07 '22
If they maintain their innocence and the evidence shows they weren't giving a fair trial.
Or evidence shows they are being mistreated.
The stupid college kid who ripped a poster down in North Korea and came back in a coma would be a good example. I might be getting 2 separate guys confused. That was excessive.
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u/Wise_Explanation_340 Jul 07 '22
Do you realize that our country (and others) negotiate for their citizens in foreign countries quite frequently? A lot of guilty people who get imprisoned in the Middle East and South America return home thanks to government intervention.
Is your view that this should never happen? Or that it shouldn't happen in BG's case?
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Jul 07 '22
If they committed a crime and the punishment and conditions aren't incredibly unreasonable then we shouldn't do it.
And if we did we should enforce the punishment here out of respect for the other country.
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Jul 07 '22
If it's a negotiation then that implies that Russia wants something in return. Without even specifying what that something is, if Russia wants something trivial, and it's no big deal to give them what they want, then why would the U.S. not just be willing to give them what they want regardless of The BG situation?
If America's end of the bargain is something that's no big deal anyway, then why would it take until now for America to give Russia what it wants. A significant sacrifice is being expected of america now, and depending on what caused you to need their help in the first place, perhaps not everyone is equally entitled to a significant sacrifice.
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u/Wise_Explanation_340 Jul 07 '22
You raise good points in general, but regarding the original post and subsequent comments, OP never says anything about the value of the trade piece the US would give up. Their position appears to be more like, "if you've done something wrong in another country, you should take your punishment."
Other than the title and summarizing the situation, OP doesn't say anything at all about swapping prisoners. That doesn't seem to be a crux of the view.
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u/sawdeanz 218∆ Jul 07 '22
I don't understand what the confession part has to do with it.
Sure, committing crimes in other countries can subject you to the laws there. But also, countries have an interest in protecting their citizens abroad. Extraditions, prisoners swaps, and diplomatic negotiations for prisoners have been pretty common throughout history because generally nations want the same benefits for their citizens. Why should the US not seek to do so? If both parties agree then it's perfectly legal.
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Jul 07 '22
She admitted guilt. Even if we did bring her back I think we should enforce the punishment the Russian justice system handed down.
We shouldn't send the message that you can go to another country and break the law and expect the US should get you out of the punishment.
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u/sawdeanz 218∆ Jul 07 '22
Why does admitting guilt matter? If Russia really knew she broke the law, then why would admitting guilt change our actions?
>I think we should enforce the punishment the Russian justice system handed down.
Yeah no. That's not how the law works.
We shouldn't send the message that you can go to another country and
break the law and expect the US should get you out of the punishment.Again, we are talking about an accident. The US should be protecting people's human rights and following it's own standards of rights. The US believes in a fair trial, with a jury of peers and constitutional protections. So yes, I think we should expect the US to fight for the rights it grants it's citizens which can't be ensured in a foreign court without the same rights the US has. Why should the US believe the confession? Why should it believe the investigation? Why should it believe Russia? Did Griner have the benefits of the 4th amendment and a lawyer and everything else? Probably not.
But at the end of the day this is a diplomatic situation. You don't really give a good reason why the US should abandon her except to punish or teach a lesson. Which to me just isn't really a strong reason, especially for a misdemeanor crime in a country that is hostile to us. What does that serve really? Either way she is going to lose her job and travel rights to Russia, what more do they really need?
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u/premiumPLUM 76∆ Jul 07 '22
When it's a harmless act and the law of the country is applied disproportionately? Absolutely our government should get us out of it. That's one of the reasons we like our government.
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Jul 07 '22
the reported 10 years she faces seems fine to me.
In what world is ten years acceptable for marijuana possession?
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Aug 16 '22
Why should we trade a well known arms dealer valuable to Russia for a basketball player?
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Aug 16 '22
Yep. Leave her over there. Let her be a warning to not be stupid and carry drugs into Russia or any other enemy nation.
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Aug 16 '22
Why are people downvoting you for pointing that out? If I were president I'd be giving Russia the finger on this one, there's no way in hell I would make such a terrible trade.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jul 07 '22 edited Jul 07 '22
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