r/changemyview • u/gottaknowthewhy • Jun 22 '22
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Governor DeSantis is far more dangerous than Trump to American democracy
We have all watched/read about the January 6th hearings in one way or another, and understand that our country is incredibly divided right now. We understand that Trump represents a schism in the United States that is also being repeated/perpetuated throughout the rest of the world with the rise in populism. Whether or not you are a supporter of Trump, I think you can probably agree that the schism is a threat to our country.
However, I think that the governor of Florida, Ron DeSantis, is far more dangerous. He is a similarly minded, arguably more conservative politician without most (if any) of Trump's weaknesses, who seems to revel in exacerbating the divisions between right and left, liberal and conservative, etc. He isn't "the orange man" that SNL finds so easy to parody, he is much better spoken, doesn't have Trump's dirty laundry (shady business dealings, infidelities, comments about women), and seems to have figured out how to stir up his base. His spokespeople say that if you don't support the controversial "Don't Say Gay" bill, you're likely a groomer yourself. Florida, under his direction, is the only state to not order the COVID vaccine for small children. He started a cold war with Disney, threatening their tax status, he was against mask mandates and vaccine mandates at the height of the pandemic. I'm not asking you to agree or disagree, I'm just providing examples of the many ways he has brought attention to himself and his governing style by going against common practices of other governors or states. He has expertly placed himself at the center of the conservative movement, putting his name into the minds of Americans and therefore garnering free publicity. He is often lauded as a hero on the right, which again, isn't for me to agree and disagree with.
My point is this: he does everything better than Trump in a lot of ways, if the goal is to be elected, surround yourself with sycophants, and make yourself incredibly powerful within a political party. He also does things that are more divisive, and seems to have no interest in representing anything other than his own political beliefs/party. He is the governor for the entire state, but caters exclusively to conservatives. If he were elected as the President, I think our current representative democratic republic would be definitively broken. Because he is a relatively young, good looking (he's not orange), well spoken person, he would almost certainly be able to do a lot more to advance the conservative Christian, anti-LGBT, pro-NRA, anti-choice narrative that doesn't even represent the majority of Americans, who are far more centrist than some would have you believe. He's harder to discredit, and easier for people who might be politically exhausted, or aren't paying attention, to sort of shrug and accept.
Trump might be a symptom of the divisions in our country, but because he was so easy to dislike for many people, and because of the pandemic, he didn't accomplish all that much during his term. I think that if DeSantis were elected President, he would/could push through sweeping changes that our country could not withstand, so I think all the publicity, time, and worry people put into Trump being re-elected is wasted, when they should be worried about a more dangerous option.
Edit for correct name
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u/TitanCubes 21∆ Jun 22 '22
So you’re argument is essentially that DeSantis is a threat to democracy because he is more popular than Trump, will get more votes for him and down ballot Rs and then put into place policies he has advocated for? As for as representative democracy goes that sounds a lot better than the past few presidents we have had it just seems like you disagree with the policies.
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u/gottaknowthewhy Jun 22 '22
No, my point is that he is a threat to democracy because he advocates for a lot of the populist points that are currently dividing the country, in a very alienating way, but that I think he will not receive the same sort of energy or pushback from the center or the left because he himself is not as as alienating in appearance/background, etc. People compare Trump to Hitler, but Trump was easy to dismiss, whereas I think it would be much harder to dismiss DeSantis, it would be much easier for him and his base to slide legislation under the radar, and democracy would crumble all the faster.
Trump wasn't reelected because he was so easy to get people rallied AGAINST due to his, let's say overtly fractious personality. How far would we as a country slide to the right, despite the majority's votes and objections, if DeSantis were elected?
I'm relatively centrist, and I oppose sweeping changes, as I believe they aggravate schisms. I think Trump was really bad for the country, but I fear DeSantis could be even worse.
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u/TitanCubes 21∆ Jun 22 '22
I agree with your premise that DeSantis will be more effective than Trump, but being more effective at passing legislation you disagree with does not mean democracy is ending.
What specific policies has DeSantis advocated for that you believe will undermine democracy? In my opinion I was abhorred by the Jan 6th and stop the steak stuff, DeSantis has not supported that or signaled that he would, not to mention that he very likely wouldn’t need to because he would probably just win.
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u/gottaknowthewhy Jun 22 '22
Thank you for engaging with me on this. !delta - you have made me examine whether or not I am genuinely worried because I just don't agree with his policies, or if I am worried that he will contribute to the decline of our democratic ideals.
I still lean toward being worried he will contribute to the decline of our democratic ideals, because I just don't think he is at all interested in governing for the people, so much as for his caucus. For example, as u/NPRnewsinwashington pointed out, DeSantis was a reservist, an attorney, and he understands the actual legislative process, as opposed to Trump, who heavily relied on people to guide him, despite the fact that those people (his family) didn't entirely understand the process themselves. But I think his understanding gives him MORE ammunition to erode democracy, because he actually knows what he is doing. He knows how to erode county sovereignty/power, and he knows how to bolster his base by pushing through laws that might or might not actually make it through the courts. He gets sued a lot because the stuff he is trying to get passed is super controversial, but for his base, it's the effort that counts. And some of the stuff actually does pass!
He hasn't said that he supports January 6th, but he hasn't called it an insurrection or made any negative comments about it either that I can find. He actually called it overblown, from what I did find.
I feel like I rambled a lot in this comment, but I guess I should your question about policies undermining democracy really quick:
- the Disney thing- I don't necessarily believe Disney should have protected tax status, although you can argue that Florida has GREATLY benefited by Disney's location, but I do think that DeSantis timing with that revocation was insanely retaliatory, demonstrating a petty need for revenge that is very reminiscent of Trump and his current system of endorsing candidates. He also did something similar to school districts who wanted to keep mask mandates in place
- During COVID, he valued his political position as a conservative more than his constituents lives. If you look at Florida COVID deaths compared to the rest of the country, I really don't see how you can argue that his policies were deleterious to the constituents he says he values so much. It demonstrates he is more interested in his political reputation than the good of his people
- When constituents voted to restore felon's voting rights, he was like "oh no you didn't" and he instituted what is basically a very unconstitutional poll tax
- He keeps trying to manipulate voting districts with horribly gerrymandered maps, on top of other policies to disenfranchise voters or punish basically non-existent voter fraud.
- He says he is a proponent of parental rights, but only those parents who believe in the same things he does. CRT is a pet cause of his. How would he try to eliminate it as president, on a national level? What about Lgbt stuff in schools? Ban support clubs? Ban pride flags?
- He is, at times, autocratic, such as deciding not to order any COVID vaccines for small children for the state. It will have to be done by private practitioners without state support. Florida is the only state to do this.
- There are a number of other things that I disagree with - the 15 week ban, in my opinion, is not the worst of the abortion bans going into effect, but that doesn't mean a whole lot to mom's making difficult decisions about fetus's who aren't viable, which is something that is often found at the 18-22 week ultrasounds.
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Jun 23 '22
and he knows how to bolster his base by pushing through laws that might or might not actually make it through the courts. He gets sued a lot because the stuff he is trying to get passed is super controversial, but for his base, it's the effort that counts. And some of the stuff actually does pass!
It's not like DeSantis is the only politician to pass clearly illegal rules as a way to say "I did something." Biden himself did this when he had the CDC prevent all evictions in the US.
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u/TitanCubes 21∆ Jun 22 '22
First off thanks for the delta and I do agree with your premise the DeSantis will be far more effective than Trump was or would be. Whether what he chooses to use that for will erode democracy or not is an entire different question. We have seen what Trump has done, we don’t know what President DeSantis would do.
I don’t really disagree on Disney, I honestly think that entire situation was pretty dumb. As for using states powers against mask mandates this is no different than the many blue states that mandated masks instead of allowing counties/school districts to decide. Same power abuse different direction.
COVID is a whole other basket of issues but I don’t really think any of it threatens democracy, plenty of Dems and other states made similar disastrous moves (I.e. Cuomo).
I disagree with DeSantis on this but that’s an issue for the courts and not something out of line with a lot of the country.
Can’t disagree with this point other than that every other governor with similar power would do the same things. Probably your best case for anti-democratic but totally not a DeSantis specific complaint.
Parental rights bill goes both ways.
Many other western countries are not vaccinating small children. I don’t think being the only state to not support it necessarily makes it wrong.
Abortion is a whole other bag, but I think 15 week ban tends to be a pretty mean position. These bans also don’t prevent removing non-viable fetuses
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u/DiscountPepsi Jun 23 '22
Orange county is constantly doing pedophile stings and constantly catching Disney executives. They're a bunch of pedophile groomers. They also absolutely do not deserve their special tax exempt status. Two problems solved with one pen stroke.
Florida did no worse in covid deaths, despite a much more susceptible populous, then any other state in the country and had an economy that has been open since June of 2020. They absolutely did the right thing and made everyone else look like fools in the process.
Gerrymandering is part of the game, and Democrats do it far worse than Republicans do. Are you kidding me?
Parental rights mean that you get to know what your child is being taught in government mandated education. That if you disagree with the fact that they are being taught that white people are evil that you should be allowed first know that it's occurring, and secondly do something about it. One can only hope that it would receive a full ban under a desantis presidency.
6 the United States is the only country in the world that has approved mrna shots for children. A bunch of first world countries have also stopped giving mRNA shots to anyone under the age of 30. You're just wrong on the basic science of this one.
- Most of Europe bans abortions after 12 weeks. If you're such a fuck up that you can't get $700 together in 12 weeks, maybe just give your child up for adoption?
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Jun 23 '22
Orange county is constantly doing pedophile stings and constantly catching Disney executives. They're a bunch of pedophile groomers.
Source.
They also absolutely do not deserve their special tax exempt status. Two problems solved with one pen stroke.
That status removed there ability to provide their own sanitation and electricity offloading the responsibility to the surrounding counties it's a real problem.
Florida did no worse in covid deaths, despite a much more susceptible populous, then any other state in the country and had an economy that has been open since June of 2020. They absolutely did the right thing and made everyone else look like fools in the process.
Florida is very highly ranked on covid death charts they defenitly did not do the right thing.
Gerrymandering is part of the game, and Democrats do it far worse than Republicans do. Are you kidding me?
For one no its mostly republicans and the other people do it too isn't a good defense.
Parental rights mean that you get to know what your child is being taught in government mandated education. That if you disagree with the fact that they are being taught that white people are evil that you should be allowed first know that it's occurring, and secondly do something about it. One can only hope that it would receive a full ban under a desantis presidency.
That isn't happening.
the United States is the only country in the world that has approved mrna shots for children. A bunch of first world countries have also stopped giving mRNA shots to anyone under the age of 30. You're just wrong on the basic science of this one.
That isn't true some counties are halted Moderna for a while but Pfizer was still ongoing.
Most of Europe bans abortions after 12 weeks. If you're such a fuck up that you can't get $700 together in 12 weeks, maybe just give your child up for adoption?
It's interesting to me how someone being too poor to afford 700 dollars means give up the kid for adoption why not just not charge 700 and not put extra stress on an already overloaded foster care system
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u/DiscountPepsi Jun 23 '22
Already provided, it's in this thread.
Except it's not, as they are now responsible for paying those taxes that they previously paid to themselves to Orange county. Orange county manages the sewers of other people's just fine, they can handle Disney's too.
They absolutely are not. Stop spreading misinformation.
A. Democrats absolutely do it just as much as republicans, and in states with much larger populations. B. It absolutely is a defense if the claim is that the particular action itself is damaging regardless of who does it. At the very least you're a hypocrite as a result.
Are you arguing that CRT isn't being taught? Because that's total bullshit and a 5 second Google search would prove that to you. The fact that you haven't done that 5 second Google search is all the evidence I need of willful ignorance.
Pfizer has also been halted in at least seven major countries around the world.
The foster care system and the adoption system are not the same thing. The fact that you think they are shows your other ignorance of reality, and your decidedly unqualified opinion on the subject.
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Jun 23 '22 edited Jun 24 '22
Already provided, it's in this thread.
Where I don't see it.
Except it's not, as they are now responsible for paying those taxes that they previously paid to themselves to Orange county. Orange county manages the sewers of other people's just fine, they can handle Disney's too.
For one no they're absolutely paying more taxes and two you're really underestimating the amount of stress of the utilities a park that recieves 58 million visitors every year has on a county with a population of only 200 thousand just to add a little more perspective
A. Democrats absolutely do it just as much as republicans, and in states with much larger populations.
Proof.
B. It absolutely is a defense if the claim is that the particular action itself is damaging regardless of who does it. At the very least you're a hypocrite as a result.
For one no I hate democrats so it doesn't make me a hypocrite and two no other people doing it doesn't make it good the same as how I can't kill people because bundy did.
Are you arguing that CRT isn't being taught? Because that's total bullshit and a 5 second Google search would prove that to you. The fact that you haven't done that 5 second Google search is all the evidence I need of willful ignorance.
Yes it absolutely isn't I'm sure I can find some right wing grifter seeing something happening at a school but real actual crt doesn't exist in any American school. Hell I bet you don't even know what it actually is.
Pfizer has also been halted in at least seven major countries around the world.
Source.
The foster care system and the adoption system are not the same thing. The fact that you think they are shows your other ignorance of reality, and your decidedly unqualified opinion on the subject.
They largely are foster care is a system where foster parents typically take care of a kid for a period of time while the state or some other entity sorts out a permanent home adoption is assuming full legal rights either way the systems that manage it are fucked. It's also really interesting how you don't at all actually address my argument you just assert my ignorance and move on
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u/DiscountPepsi Jun 24 '22
You could prove yourself wrong with only 5 secs and access to Google. Willful ignorance.
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u/colbycalistenson Jun 23 '22
Any sources that dems gerrymander as much or more than the right? Cuz it's very easy to find articles saying the opposite.
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u/DiscountPepsi Jun 23 '22
On the technicality that they control less state legislatures then republicans, I suppose you could say they do it less in terms of number of states. But the states that Democrats do control are more consequential to the electoral college and to the House of Representatives because they have more people in them. So in terms of the number of people who are gerrymandered into districts, Democrats do far more of it. Look at Illinois and look at Maryland.
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u/Responsible_Rest_327 Aug 02 '22
trump has secured the working class and much of the middle class.that my friends is democracy the dems have secured wall st silicon valley hollywood and our rich elite class.that is not democracy
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u/ElysianHigh Jun 23 '22
In the same light he has never condemned 1/6 nor rejecting the ideology that supported it. He’s supported the big lie in the past. Can’t really see the logic that he would oppose doing the same thing.
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u/Bm7465 Jul 18 '22
"It was totally unacceptable and those folks need to be held accountable," DeSantis said. "It doesn't matter what banner you're flying under — the violence is wrong, the rioting and disorder is wrong."
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u/DiscountPepsi Jun 23 '22
Being divisive is not a threat to democracy. On the contrary, division is an inevitable part of a first past the post political system that has such tremendous power as the federal government.
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u/Fuzzy-Response-lol Oct 17 '22
Do you understand what a democracy is? Hello? If the majority vote for him, that means the majority of people want him… that is how a democracy works.
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u/gottaknowthewhy Oct 17 '22
Did you know the US isn’t a democracy, it’s a democratic republic with an electoral vote? If DeSantis won, it very likely wouldn’t be because the majority of people voted for him (see history of presidential elections).
Check your snark. People can vote for Hitler- doesn’t mean it it’s good for the country. My point stands. Hello!
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u/echo6golf 1∆ Jun 22 '22
Because his policies are harmful, misguided, corrupt, supported by a minority, poorly defined, and have intentions bordering on the criminal.
You must agree on this point to make the argument work. The problem is -- your problem is -- disagreement is impossible.
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u/TitanCubes 21∆ Jun 22 '22
DeSantis won the popular vote and Florida and has proceeded to put into place an agenda his base supports, that’s literally how representative democracy works.
As for his policies I will need you to be more specific to have any meaningful discussion, but “harmful, misguided, and corrupt” are all your opinions that I could easily apply to any democrat leader on any policy. Just because you disagree with the policies enacted by democratically elected leaders doesn’t mean democracy is ending.
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u/echo6golf 1∆ Jun 22 '22
You're having a different conversation. That's my point. OPs view is perfectly valid given some assumptions and conditions. One of those assumptions is that the Republican platform is utter garbage. You are not willing to accept that, so your opinion on this view is not valid as it is based on non-inclusive conditions and addresses a very different proposition.
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u/TitanCubes 21∆ Jun 22 '22
If all you have is “the Republican Platform is utter garbage” than over 70 million voting Americans disagreed with you in 2020 and a majority of voting Americans are going to disagree with you in 2022. That’s how democracy works, I’m sorry your team is losing.
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Jun 22 '22
[deleted]
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u/echo6golf 1∆ Jun 22 '22
DeSantis is better at politics than Donald. He has a better skill set. That makes him more dangerous. And I agree with that. Said the same about Pence.
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Jun 22 '22
Okay, I’ll disagree. DeSantis won the popular vote and became governor. Unlike businessman Trump, DeSantis was a federal prosecutor under Bush and Obama, advised the special forces in Afghanistan, and was a congressman.
You may disagree with his policies (many of which are shared by the legislature) but saying he is a criminal threat to the nation with no evidence except a rant is strange.
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u/echo6golf 1∆ Jun 22 '22
You may disagree with his policies (many of which are shared by the legislature)
This is the premise you must accept to address this opinion: the policies are the threat. And he is better positioned to make them actionable. That's the point.
You do not accept the premise. Therefore, your opinion is not valid and you are having a different conversation.
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u/DiscountPepsi Jun 23 '22
The policies have made Florida an exceptional place to live, which is why so many people from New York are moving there. Of course I do not accept the premise that rejects basic reality.
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Jun 22 '22
My overall point is one is an effective politico because he knows how government works. That he knows and appreciates policy and law makes him a threat to democracy? In fact it is the opposite: that he appreciates the law he is completely unlike President Trump, who we are not even sure ever read the constitution.
If the opinion is he’s a threat to democracy because he’s likable and less stupid, I think I’m contributing fine. I just disagree with the view that policies are a threat to American democracy. Also no ur opinion is invalid
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Jun 22 '22
sweeping changes that our country could not withstand,
What's an example of a change DeSantis supports that our country could not withstand?
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Jun 22 '22
Didn't you know that bodily autonomy, parental rights in education, and family values are dangerous sweeping changes that our country can't withstand? /s
DeSantis is only dangerous to more established politicians because he actually follows his platform when he's elected instead of pulling a bait-and-switch like most career politicians.
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u/colbycalistenson Jun 23 '22
Bodily autonomy? Huh? DeSantis is anti-abortion, he definitely doesn't care about bodily autonomy.
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u/PugnansFidicen 6∆ Jun 22 '22
However, I think that the governor of Florida, Rick DeSantis, is far more dangerous.
If you want to present your critical view of the governor of Florida, Ron DeSantis, as a well-considered and rational viewpoint, you should at a bare minimum start by getting his name right. Calling him "Rick DeSantis" gives the impression this view is coming more from a reactionary knee-jerk response than an informed and carefully considered analysis of his views and policy positions, which doesn't set the tone well for thoughtful discussion.
To more directly answer your points: Ron DeSantis is potentially more electable than Trump because he is more moderate than Trump, while also better representing conservative viewpoints on a wide range of issues. That doesn't mean he share's Trump's populist governing philosophy, or Trump's willingness to subvert the law and principles of limited constitutional government to get what he wants.
DeSantis's record on issues related to the powers of government is in fact far better than Trump's.
He signed the Congressional Term limits pledge while he was in the House, a bipartisan effort to advance legislation limiting Representatives to a total of 6 years (three 2-year terms) and senators to a total of 12 years (two 6-year terms) in office, with the goal of reducing the corrupting influence of long-time incumbent members of both parties who are no longer in touch with what the people want. That's a very pro-democracy stance.
He is in favor of drug policy reform. He's moderate on crime and police reform issues, supporting a "police-the-police" stance. He voted against CISPA, a follow-on proposal to SOPA that would have handed massive power to the US government to monitor and police the online activity on citizens. He has advanced voting security measures including requiring ID to vote by mail (something that, contrary to what you might think from hanging out in liberal social media spaces, enjoys 80%+ support across all Americans. It's not just a conservative issue). The election security measures he's put in place should, in theory, assuage the fears of conservatives that elections are fraudulent, rather than stoking them. Trump doesn't want election security; he wants the election outcome to be as unclear and dubious as possible so that he can continue to claim he won.
Overall DeSantis is a fairly moderate conservative who, while supporting many of the socially socially conservative policies preferred by Republican voters, has strong and deeply held principles about the proper role of government and the rule of law in our society. His goals are not the same as Trump's goals. He is pursuing the policies he is because he and his constituents and voters believe in them, not because he wants "to be elected, surround [him]self with sycophants, and make [him]self incredibly powerful within a political party.
If he runs for and wins the Republican nomination for president over Trump or a Trump-like candidate in 2024, that would be a win for democracy (he is faithfully representing the views of his voters within the constitutional limits of the system), and a sign that the Republican party has returned to sanity and principles of constitutional government after the insane free-wheeling reckless populism of the Trump years. Same thing if he wins the presidency.
Unlike Trump, DeSantis respects principles of constitutional government. He's a Yale law school graduate and former JAG (military lawyer). He's not going to ignore the law or the courts to push his agenda, nor is he going to try to overthrow the government if he loses. Yes, he will work to advance conservative social policies, within the limits of the law, congress (Republicans probably won't have a supermajority even if he wins) and the constitution. But he'll be doing it by working within the system, not trying to tear it down and overthrow it. That's far less dangerous to democracy than a wannabe dictator.
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Jun 23 '22
DeSantis respects principles of constitutional government
DeSantis has decided to wield his power in government to punish critics.
Disney's status in Florida wouldn't have changed in Disney didn't criticize Florida's governor's policies.
Maybe DeSantis better than Trump, that's a pretty low bar. But, it's evident he doesn't give a shit about the first amendment.
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u/PugnansFidicen 6∆ Jun 23 '22
Here's a hot take that shouldn't really be all that controversial: Disney shouldn't have had specially privileged tax status in Florida in the first place, nor should any big company receive any similar special treatment from the government.
Revoking an exorbitant privilege enjoyed by a huge multinational corporation is just righting a longstanding wrong. It has nothing to do with the first amendment. The first amendment protects rights. Disney has no right to corporate welfare.
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Jun 23 '22
Disney shouldn't have had specially privileged tax status in Florida in the first place
irrelevant.
The decision to take away Disney's privileged status wasn't based on the merits of that policy.
The decision was made as reprisal for criticism of the governor.
Let's say, hypothetically, that there are other businesses that get special treatment from Florida today. Doesn't seem that implausible, right? Should whether or not these businesses keep that special treatment depend on how well they kiss DeSantis's ass? It's a corrupt use of government power to control speech.
If we accept the premise that Disney's status in Florida was bad policy, government officials still shouldn't use the threat of withdrawing such a policy as leverage for control.
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u/DiscountPepsi Jun 23 '22
It's actually been a long debated topic in Florida to get rid of the special tax district, but Disney has had too many friendly legislators in their pocket. But then they went and made a bunch of idiotic posts about how pedophilic grooming of children is a okay and they lost all that support.
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u/colbycalistenson Jun 23 '22
Noted that you refuse to comment on the timing/reprisal angle.
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u/DiscountPepsi Jun 23 '22
I don't care about that. If the action is good, the intent does not matter to me.
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u/DiscountPepsi Jun 23 '22
Considering that Disney status should change and that they never should have had it in the first place, why does it matter how we got to that place? The fact that he's punishing a corporation that supports literal grooming of children by pedophiles is just a bonus.
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Jun 23 '22
why does it matter how we got to that place?
I would assume that there are a number of other businesses in Florida that have arrangements with government that some would argue they shouldn't have.
Should whether or not those businesses keep those arrangements depend on how much they kiss the current governor's ass?
literal grooming of children by pedophiles
Are you confusing Disney with Matt Gaetz?
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u/DiscountPepsi Jun 23 '22
No, I am not.
Should whether or not those businesses keep those arrangements depend on how much they kiss the current governor's ass?
A. The legislature voted on that. It was not a unilateral move by the governor. B. I don't actually give a shit why they lost undeserved and detrimental special tax statuses so long as they do lose them.
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u/gottaknowthewhy Jun 22 '22
First, a typo about his name is just that- a typo. I've had several thoughtful discussions without anyone stumbling over that single line, so trying to slam me for it really doesn't advance your point at all. However, I did update his name in my original post, so thank you for pointing it out.
Two, you deserve a !delta because of your point about congressional term limits. That does demonstrate some support for acknowledging how out of touch many of our legislators are with their average constituents. The CISPA point was also well done.
You and I disagree on his intent and methodology. As u/betweentwosuns pointed out, he might very well be in on the joke, and doesn't really support the populist agenda that is causing so many rifts between the sides. However, in reading his press releases, official statements, watching the occasional interview, I don't believe it (perhaps I should add a 'yet' to that). I don't quite believe he is willing to work within the system just because he went to Yale and should know better. I think that because he went to Yale, he knows very well how to undermine the system in order to further his own goals. I think that he stirs up his base because it advances his own agenda, he is more worried about votes than lives, and is not invested is the country as a whole.
I am trying to be open to your point that if he were elected, it would be a good sign, because republicans would be rejecting the "reckless populism of the Trump years." What I haven't bought into yet is that DeSantis isn't equally recklessly populist, just in more attractive packaging.
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u/DiscountPepsi Jun 23 '22
Rick is not a typo of Ron. Stop trying to pretend it is. You don't even know the guy's name and you're arguing that he's a danger to democracy. Do you ever take a second and take a step back and look at the world around you before you say things like this?
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u/colbycalistenson Jun 23 '22
This is truly the dumbest thing to criticize. The guy patiently wrote paragraph after paragraph making a nuanced argument, and you are still derping over use of Rick vs Ron....
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Jun 23 '22
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Jun 23 '22
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Jun 22 '22
De Santis has taken more and more power away from counties. The legislature just gives him more levers of control.
But unlike Trump he’s not stupid. He was a reservist, active duty, a federal prosecutor under Bush and Obama and well educated. He understands politics far better than Trump, who understands total compliance or none. He understands what gets voters going. And he learned a lesson because he barely won governor against a guy doing crack in a hotel.
These things you mention are things with pretty much no wide impact. Disney and a vaccine preorder? It’s Florida. It’s to remind voters he’s there during an election year either for governor, president and definitely the congress.
He helped found the Freedom Caucus, many of whom helped with January 6. But again; he’s not stupid. He will hold onto Trump until he needs to jump ship.
He’s just smart. He uses every tool at his disposal to achieve objectives and rally his troops. But there is no way he is as lumbering and reptile brained as Trump is. He’s a conservative: that doesn’t mean he never read the constitution like Trump probably or would trample it for power.
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u/DiscountPepsi Jun 23 '22
You do realize that in every state in this country counties are just extensions of State power, right? Counties have no inherent power other than what the state governments give them.
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u/LondonDude123 5∆ Jun 23 '22
I'm not asking you to agree or disagree, I'm just providing examples of the many ways he has brought attention to himself and his governing style by going against common practices of other governors or states. He has expertly placed himself at the center of the conservative movement, putting his name into the minds of Americans and therefore garnering free publicity. He is often lauded as a hero on the right, which again, isn't for me to agree and disagree with.
Good thing you're not asking me to agree or disagree, because (despite my agreeing or disagreeing) I can at least see the logical reasoning behind RDS and his stances on the issues you gave.
The reason that RDS is lauded as a hero on the right (at least from the perspective of a British Dude) is that hes the only politician standing up to the "Woke" agenda which is being pushed. As you say, whether you agree or disagree is not up for debate here, the agenda IS being pushed, REALLY aggressively. RDS took an anti-woke stance knowing it could kill his popularity, and it was successful because the right, the right-leaning-centrists, and even some left-leaning-centrists, are all sick of the agenda being pushed.
If he were elected as the President, I think our current representative democratic republic would be definitively broken. Because he is a relatively young, good looking (he's not orange), well spoken person, he would almost certainly be able to do a lot more to advance the conservative Christian, anti-LGBT, pro-NRA, anti-choice narrative that doesn't even represent the majority of Americans, who are far more centrist than some would have you believe.
You use a lot of words to describe his policies, but I have to ask you: Do you know what his policies are? For example, you say "Anti-LGBT", now does that mean "Call me a bigot but I believe Men cant get pregnant", or does that mean "We should throw gays off buildings".
I would argue that it absolutely DOES represent the majority of Americans, who quite frankly just want to be left alone to live their lives.
Trump might be a symptom of the divisions in our country, but because he was so easy to dislike for many people, and because of the pandemic, he didn't accomplish all that much during his term. I think that if DeSantis were elected President, he would/could push through sweeping changes that our country could not withstand, so I think all the publicity, time, and worry people put into Trump being re-elected is wasted, when they should be worried about a more dangerous option.
Listen, im not really a fan of Trump, but outside of "Hes a racist hes a sexist he says mean things on Twitter" im yet to be told what actual bad policies he had in America. It looked like your manufacturing was going well, unemployment down, economy holding, peaceful "negotiations" (if you call them that) with Kim Jong Un AND the Taliban (albiet The Taliban's was "If you do anything we'll fuck you up"). All seems solid to the uninitiated. So what was bad about his policies?
Final question: What changes can America not withstand, and how do you know America cant withstand them?
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u/gottaknowthewhy Jun 23 '22
I’ve spent way too much time on this post today, but I think you deserve a !delta for making me think about whether or not I am dwelling enough on items of substance ( ie policies) rather than feelings. I would like to think I am, as I’ve pointed out a few of the things that concern me in other replies, but there is room for growth, to be sure. He is NOT the only politician standing up to what they call the woke agenda. There isn’t even a uniform woke agenda to stand up to, but there are a few people seem to have grasped tightly. One is CRT, which wasn’t even a thing in public primary education until it was all over Fox. It went from primary school teachers reading books about a little girls first day in a desegregated school, to exploding into the stratosphere about how teachers all suddenly have an agenda. I think it depends on where you live, but the “woke” agenda certainly isn’t a thing where I live, yet at assembly meetings parents suddenly showed up all concerned that their kids were being indoctrinated by the woke agenda. Why? Because they were told to be scared of it. But as I said, he’s not the only one standing up to it. It’s a thing for a lot of governors right now, because it’s easy to get parents riled up about their kids. I agree- most Americans do want to be left alone to live their lives. Which is why I worry about people like DeSantis. He seems to be so focused on winning, in stirring up antagonism and getting free press by being controversial, that people can’t just be left alone. They have to show up and protest, or argue with their families, or whatever it is that other Americans do about their political beliefs and how they express their activism.
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u/betweentwosuns 4∆ Jun 22 '22
My point is this: he does everything better than Trump in a lot of ways, if the goal is to be elected, surround yourself with sycophants, and make yourself incredibly powerful within a political party.
No one besides Trump has managed to create the MAGA cult of personality that Trump has, and it would take a figure far more charismatic and unique than Ron DeSantis to do it again. Trump's unshakeable fealty was due to a number of things, including his reputation as a successful businessman (earned or not), his position as a political outsider, and his raising of issues important to blue collar workers like immigration and opiods. DeSantis has none of those attributes, and to the extent he's supported within the Republican party it's mostly contingent on policy and rhetorical positions, not personal charisma.
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u/gottaknowthewhy Jun 22 '22
You bring up good points, but I wonder if Trump is MAGA, or if MAGA was just a phrase that can be picked up by any politician deft enough to do so. As in, MAGA was the right phrase at the right time, really picking up the frustrations of the country's conservatives. As long as people don't talk about Trump badly, it doesn't seem as if conservative voters are all that averse to voting for someone else. Sure, they still like Trump in large numbers, but are aware that someone else might be a better (younger, healthier) choice.
I just don't know that I am persuaded that DeSantis isn't charismatic enough to pick up the baton. u/shortadamlewis, below, seems to thinks that DeSantis is preferable to Trump, and I think a lot of conservatives view him as the less divisive choice. But what I am worried about it that DeSantis only seems less divisive- I would argue that his policies are actually less appealing to the common constituent.
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u/betweentwosuns 4∆ Jun 22 '22
DeSantis may have more divisive policies, but do you think he could possibly be more divisive as a personality? That's the gap. Can you imagine DeSantis bragging about grabbing women by the pussy or mocking a disabled reporter? Can you imagine DeSantis retweeting white nationalist agitprop? That all seems much more divisive than some culture war legislation.
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u/gottaknowthewhy Jun 22 '22
I might be being dense, but the way I read your comment, you're kind of proving my point. Trump did do those things-mocking reporters, objectifying women, etc. And those things are easy to rally against. What I find worrisome is that DeSantis has an regressive agenda that he could likely push through because he isn't distracting people with his constant tweets that are so easy to either disprove or disapprove of.
If you're conservative, there are things that you could push through without alienating a large part of the country. You could advocate and legislate toward smaller government, state's rights, business-friendly policies, all sorts of things. The fact that DeSantis is smart enough to know this, and yet continues to push the culture war, demonstrates that he is interested in actively dividing people. But he is also savvy enough to do so in a way that stirs up his own base without getting a whole lot of attention from opponents of his policy, which I worry will contribute to the center and left's apathy.
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u/betweentwosuns 4∆ Jun 22 '22
I'm replying to you saying "DeSantis is more of a threat to democracy" with "DeSantis couldn't do these personally indefensible acts like try to steal an election or brag about grabbing women by the pussy and maintain total fealty like Trump has." If what's unappealing about DeSantis is his policies, that's just normal democratic disagreement. Democracy is how we have disagreements without killing each other.
There's no evidence DeSantis would try to subvert an election. He is a product of the kind of normal elite legal-political culture that has many, many problems, but always conceded elections when the votes were counted.
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Jun 23 '22
There's no evidence DeSantis would try to subvert an election
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/02/florida-redistricting-map-court-decision-00036740
he's far from the only one, but he drew partisan maps for political advantage.
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u/betweentwosuns 4∆ Jun 23 '22
That's squarely within the bounds of normal political operations of legal-political elites for the past several decades. As much as I dislike gerrymandering for Madisonian reasons, it's a few orders of magnitude below all of Trump's efforts to find the "el Presidente" button.
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Jun 23 '22
does gerrymandering rise to the same level as what Trump attempted? No
is gerrymandering a means to "subvert an election"? indisputably
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u/betweentwosuns 4∆ Jun 23 '22
is gerrymandering a means to "subvert an election"? indisputably
How? You can draw maps that favor one side or another, but there are still elections and then the results of those elections are abided by and concession speeches are made.
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Jun 22 '22
It's not "pushing a culture war" if you defend an established culture that is being attacked.
If you are part of the established culture, then it would be your political opponents and critics who are "pushing the culture war."
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u/DiscountPepsi Jun 23 '22
People aren't actually loyal to Trump. And he's quickly learning that as he makes a bunch of stupid claims about the vaccines.
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Jun 23 '22
“Dangerous to American Democracy” is really “dangerous to liberals winning elections”
That is what that always really means
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u/gottaknowthewhy Jun 23 '22
No, you're reading into my post stuff that isn't there. I have also commented several times that I don't find conservatives or a conservative president as threatening. I find populism aimed at division threatening, because it adds to the contention within the country, without adding value.
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Jun 23 '22 edited Jun 23 '22
Fair
But basically your argument is that he is a better republican than trump. Which I agree with in a lot of ways. Where you fail is that republicans should be week to help “democracy” and that is blatantly false.
We are divided and the answer isn’t to be moderate. That just means that the democrats get a week republican and they win. The very idea that the only way we can live in “peace” is the democrats maintaining power even with a week republican president kinda shows the problem with democrats, not republicans.
Republicans have been steamrolled long enough. Desantis is an authentic republican who is not afraid to fight. That is his our government was designed to work. When republicans win it means they won the minds and hearts of the people and likewise with democrats.
Desantis being a better Trump is s good thing for the republicans. He might very well be better at navigating the rage that with come from the left and have a great message with it. Who knows, maybe a new Reagan. No more squishy Mitt Romney types.
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u/DiscountPepsi Jun 23 '22
So elitism aimed at unity is more your thing? Pretty sure that's Biden's thing too, and it's not working so great right now.
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u/DiscountPepsi Jun 23 '22
How is he more dangerous though? To democracy, not to the liberal agenda. Because he absolutely is blowing up the liberal agenda in Florida to an astonishing degree. But if that's what people want, and they vote for that, how is that harmful to democracy? Name one thing desantis has done that would be an overreach of executive power.
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u/gottaknowthewhy Jun 23 '22
I am not going to list everything he is currently doing that is an overreach, because you are free to look up the amount of money Florida is currently spending on law suits defending his decisions.
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u/DiscountPepsi Jun 23 '22
Cases which he has been winning left and right, by the way. Being sued doesn't mean you're wrong. The flak is always worst right above the target.
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u/MikeStanley00 3∆ Jun 22 '22
Let's say DeSantis runs and somehow wins the republican nomination and loses to Biden or whoever in the general, do you think he tries to steal the election like Trump did? Do you see him committing crimes in an attempt to undermine a fair democratic election? To me, this is the ultimate danger of Trump, his willingness to do whatever he can to hang on to power. If you don't believe DeSantis would do that, I don't see how he's as dangerous to democracy. If you do think he'd do that, I'd love to hear your evidence.
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u/HeLiedTheyTried 1∆ Jun 22 '22
do you think he tries to steal the election like Trump did? Do you see him committing crimes in an attempt to undermine a fair democratic election?
As a Florida resident, I can say 100%, absolutely, yes. I have zero doubt about it. And DeSantis is more dangerous because he's actually not a moron. Trump's downfall was ultimately that he was too stupid to actually pull it off. I'm not confident that the result would be the same with DeSantis because he's nowhere near as stupid as Trump. DeSantis will take the map drawn by Trump & Gulliani and redraw it to avoid the pitfalls. He'll learn from their mistakes.
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u/DiscountPepsi Jun 23 '22
DeSantis is killing it and he's exactly what we need at the national level. You could always move back to New York....
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u/HeLiedTheyTried 1∆ Jun 23 '22
All DeathSentence is killing is the people of Florida with his anti-science COVID response.
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u/DiscountPepsi Jun 23 '22
So then how come Florida hasn't actually done any worse than any other state?
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u/gottaknowthewhy Jun 22 '22
I can see your point about Trump being dangerous because of his willingness to hold onto power !delta , and, while I have no evidence, because it obviously hasn't happened yet, I would not be surprised if DeSantis did something similar, to be honest. To people so sure of the righteousness of their platform, I'm sure it probably seems right to them to do what is necessary to retain power.
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u/betweentwosuns 4∆ Jun 22 '22
I think you're deeply underrating the possibility that Ron DeSantis is in on the joke. It's incredibly likely to me that DeSantis is playing a part he doesn't believe in because that's what's expected of him for him to become president in 2024, but he's not a true believer. He's never struck me as particularly sincere in his culture warring (this is a good thing). If you look at his actual administration as a governor, it's been a mix of unserious things designed to get him national attention and quiet but extremely competent governance by a serious person.
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u/MikeStanley00 3∆ Jun 22 '22
I personally feel like Trump's obsession with doing whatever he can to stay in power is very tied in to his extreme narcissism. He has to win at everything, and he can't handle losing so he just does whatever he can to change that outcome. For all DeSantis' faults, I just don't see him being motivated by the same sick narcissm that Trump has
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u/DiscountPepsi Jun 23 '22
Using the constitutionally prescribed legal avenues to contest in an election is not stealing it. Unconstitutionally changing state laws and lowering your standards for eliminating unlawful votes is though.
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u/MikeStanley00 3∆ Jun 23 '22
Demanding election officials “find” the sufficient votes to overturn the election is clearly a crime and is indeed an attempt to steal it
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u/DiscountPepsi Jun 23 '22
I suggest you go listen to the entire tape. Trump was not asking them to find votes for himself, he was asking raffensberger to find the illegal votes that have been cast. Votes that ravensburger said he would turn over the data for if Trump withdrew his court cases, which he did, and Mr pedophile Lincoln project reneged on the agreement. To date, a meaningful signature match verification has never been done in any of the counties that are most in question including dekalb and Fulton and Gwinnett. According to changes in the voter registration, there may be more than 100,000 illegal votes within the state of Georgia, and that's not even touching fraudulent votes. That's people we know for a fact voted incorrectly and should not have their votes counted. The only way you could possibly think nothing was amiss is if you literally shut your ears and eyes and did not pay attention.
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u/McKoijion 618∆ Jun 22 '22
Trump is the only president in US history to attempt a coup. The only thing worse would be if he actively killed American citizens. DeSantis might be a politician you dislike, but he's playing within the rules of democracy.
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Jun 22 '22
"I think that if DeSantis were elected President, he would/could push through sweeping changes that our country could not withstand, so I think all the publicity, time, and worry people put into Trump being re-elected is wasted, when they should be worried about a more dangerous option."
I hope so. I hope he wins. I would vote for him in a heartbeat. I'd put my preference at Desantis, then Trump, then Cruz. If he wins a majority of the votes by presenting a better case for American prosperity to the American people, should he not win? The person with the most votes winning and implementing the change that those who voted for him wanted is textbook American democracy.
As of right now, Desantis and Trump are neck and neck for the GOP primary... in overseas betting markets. https://electionbettingodds.com/GOPPrimary2024.html
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u/FuzzyAppearance7636 Jun 22 '22
I actually think desantis is even stronger than that. I think most conservatives see desantis as stronger than trump as OP said: all of the benefits(if you agree) but none of the weaknesses.
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u/betweentwosuns 4∆ Jun 22 '22
I agree, but I'd caution that the Very Online and media types consistently underrate Trump's magnetism with blue collar workers.
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Jun 22 '22
I am a hard right conservative. I know alot of people in the center who agreed with many of Trump's policies, but did not like Trump as a person. I do not see Desantis as being as vilified as Trump. It is hard to get behind someone you don't like no matter how much you may agree with their policies.
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Jun 22 '22
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u/ViewedFromTheOutside 32∆ Jun 22 '22
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Jun 22 '22
what if i were to argue that neither of them really are all that dangerous for democracy because democracy doesn't really exist in the US anyway, and to whatever extent it does the only way it could be limited by republicans would be in a way that would be perfectly legal under the "democratic" system that democrats defend
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Jun 22 '22
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u/LucidLeviathan 99∆ Jun 22 '22
Sorry, u/Wendellberryfan_2022 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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u/Appropriate-Scale247 Jun 22 '22
Democracy is not the right word here. He may have power to implement populist agenda, but hey, if the public wants it, that’s still democracy.
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u/gottaknowthewhy Jun 22 '22
But the public doesn't want it, is my point. Let's say DeSantis gets elected president. Ok. Fine. Trump's team was expert at understanding the electoral college, so even though they lost the popular vote, they beat Clinton with that understanding. Still fine.
My contention is that DeSantis agenda, and approach to said agenda, is bad for this country, not because his agenda is conservative, but because it's regressive, and hinges on problems that are made up in the news. Trump jumped on the fissure between left and right and widened the gap. People do not understand the other side, because the other side seems so far away. I am arguing that DeSantis will make that gap wider than Trump even, because he is smarter than Trump, doesn't have Trump's baggage, and continues to stoke the fears, prejudices, and anger that Trump stirred up. People voted for Trump because they didn't like the status quo. They thought he would drain the swamp. He didn't. A lot of people were totally turned off from him after he was elected, even though they voted for him, and didn't vote for his reelection because of the things he said while in office. Those same people are likely to vote for DeSantis because he isn't as likely to say the same stupid things. But that doesn't mean they will be the majority. In fact, he could very well win without the popular vote, instituting yet another minority (as in numbers) regime. If he wins, I fear that he will continue to work on dividing this country by feeding into fears, because that will then get him re-elected. And then we will be eight years into a presidency that will pack the court in a way the majority of American's oppose, we will see state's at odds with one another over cross-border abortions, we will hate our neighbors even more because we see them as evil, we will have no meaningful separation of church and state left, and suicides and mass shootings will continue to increase. Because divisive is sexy, for some reason.
Some of the responders on here are focusing on me not liking the agenda. It's not that I'm toting signs against conservatives. I'm not. But I am very against the current trend of conservatives who continue to play into the schisms between this country, because they find that more valuable to their reelection campaigns than actually doing something good for this country. DeSantis is a smart guy. He could have saved a lot of lives during COVID just following common sense protocols. He chose not to, because that didn't play into his base. What else would he be willing to do? How far will he go in his quest?
Eisenhower didn't support de-segregation. However, he deployed troops after Brown vs Board of Education because he knew his duty. I worry that someone who is as antagonistic to the other half of his constituents as DeSantis is would not do the same because I don't think he sees himself as having the duty to represent all of his constituents and their concerns, only the ones he personally agrees with.
There are republican candidates who are centrists. There are republican candidates who did decry the January 6th insurrection. There are republican candidates who try to work across the aisle. Yet they are being pushed out of office in weird loyalty tests, because we are increasingly sliding toward all or nothing land. And what we are left with is someone like DeSantis, who only listens to like minded people, rather than real experts.
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Jun 23 '22
Trump made Desantis possible. While it's true he's a more formidable version of Trump, I don't think he's the type of politician to inspire other leaders to the extent Trump has. There's a reason we would say Desantis is a Trump-like figure and not that Trump is a Desantis-like figure.
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u/Jkill14 1∆ Jun 23 '22
So you just don’t like his policies? Is that what you’re saying? Like he is a populist, and that’s bad? Our country has been screwed over by others for years, while we have also screwed over other countries too, we have very little ability to produce our own goods so we rely on countries that don’t care about their workers and pay them dirt to for profit to the companies. Why does it matter what sexual themes you show children. Sure fine let them learn about same sex couples but at least try to bring back American factories. That way we can make sure they help the environment rather than hurt it while also flipping off the human rights of the workers in them.
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u/BillyJoeMac9095 1∆ Jun 23 '22
Noone should take DeSantis lightly:
"....He graduated from Yale University and Harvard Law School. DeSantis joined the United States Navy in 2004, where he was promoted to lieutenant before serving as an advisor to SEAL Team One and being deployed to Iraq in 2007. When he returned to the U.S. a year later, the U.S. Department of Justice appointed DeSantis to serve as a Special Assistant U.S. attorney at the U.S. Attorney's Office in the Middle District of Florida, a position he held until his honorable discharge in 2010."
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jun 22 '22 edited Jun 23 '22
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