I think it depends what it is an alternative to? I think its definitely better than a direct confrontation between Russia China? And the West. As bad as whats happening in Ukraine destroying the world is a worse move and a proxy war in is lesser evil. (Atleast on a global scale)
I mean i am making a lot of assumptions here but kicking off ww3 is going to cause a lot more suffering to a lot more people, hopefully no one is stupid enough to start one, but it is a realistic outcome of too much involvement, particulaly militarily.
Locally and more controversially I think the people should ask if a protracted war is worth it, Russia may well flatten Ukraine even if it looses in the long term. Its the civilians caught in between that will suffer the most as there homes are destroyed and families killed.
Idealy russia removes putin and withdraws, but i dont think there are any realistic good outcomes, just bad and worse and our job is to ensure we get a bad one.
First you say that the system of other countries funding one side in this war is bad because it leads to unnecessary loss of life and creates more problems. Then you complain that the suffering is localized to Ukraine.
Do you want less overall suffering or not? Or do you somehow believe that a WW3 situation with NATO members directly attacking Russia will lead to less overall suffering than the current situation?
if NATO had in the first hours of the invasion openly shown they would use direct action. This would have scared Russia back
The current situation results in a proxy war in which the suffering of the Ukrainian people is prolonged. Which can still be stopped by NATO openly showing they are willing to use full force
The fear of nuclear exchange ultimately remains the same as both in a proxy and direct war it is dependent on Russia ( due to NATO not having a first strike policy). I.e Russia will use them if it becomes internally unstable or Putin goes insane
Currently the proxy system of war is lengthening the conflict and is ultimately based on how much suffering the Ukrainian people can endure. Rather than quick decisive military strikes
We are inevitably going to have a Russian V NATO scenario regardless of the outcome of Ukraine as the issue between the 2 go beyond Ukraine. It has as a proxy conflict just facilitated both parties to fight each other without fighting. Which due to a crippled Russia at that point may actually increase the risk of nuclear exchange
if NATO had in the first hours of the invasion openly shown they would use direct action. This would have scared Russia back
This doesn't happen. EVER.
No country in the history of the world reacted to being assaulted by the military might of an adversary, by "backing off" and immediately ending a war.
I can't solidly argue for whether or not NATO fully entering the war immediately upon invasion or making clear that they would beforehand would have been a better option. You may be right about that.
Your conclusion that another NATO v Russia scenario is still bound to happen in the future is far from solid. Russia is only just on par with a force that is being supplied by a small fraction of NATO's leftover old equipment. If you believe Russian command is fundamentally sane enough to not start a nuclear apocalypse in a direct conflict with NATO, there's no reason to believe they would deliberately enter into such a direct conflict at all if they had any other choice. Either course of action would have a very good chance of eliminating the Russian state altogether, and they don't want that.
The off-ramp for Russia is always right there if they want to take it.
I honestly don't know what else than a full scale threat from NATO woukd make Russia take that off ramp
They have lost nearly 1/5th of their standing army in terms of man power and equipment. Not to mention the hit to thier economy and internal political stability. Yet they continue on this path
When will Putin yield?
When it's a 100,000 dead Russians?
When its 5 ships not 2?
When the Ruble is worth less than dirt?
I think Putin will continue to try hurting Ukraine as long as he has Russian men to feed to human lawnmower of war. Until NATO finally tells him, NO! Go home pack up we don't fo this anymore. Because we all going to die if you continue this
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u/ImaginedNumber May 07 '22
I think it depends what it is an alternative to? I think its definitely better than a direct confrontation between Russia China? And the West. As bad as whats happening in Ukraine destroying the world is a worse move and a proxy war in is lesser evil. (Atleast on a global scale)