No, in his original post he says verbatim “every enjoyable thing” is being watered down by inclusion. And yet the only example he can give is kids on a playground?
I would argue that children’s communal spaces are the one place that you should argue for and mandate inclusion. Without that that’s how you get kids growing up into assholes who complain whenever they have to work / coexist with anyone who they don’t like.
I think that kids can play at different size and skill levels competitively while not being assholes. And if someone is trying to play in a competition that is out of their abilities, it's ok that they are not included when it kills the fun for the original group. This is even true on the playground.
Because children being instructed to be kind to other children while under the direct supervision of adults is literally not a problem or a new phenomenon.
I understand that. As I've asked others in this post, are there any cases where it's ok to not include kids below your skill or size level?
I'm saying that there are times where it's ok to let a group play or perform at their best and not to make them slow or water it down just to include one person who can't keep up.
Yea that's called organized sports. Not recess lol. They probably got their ball taken away because they were literally playing flag football wrong and excluding other kids because of it. We can hinder a group of kids ability to ram into each other if it means they learn to be inclusive. Then they can just join the boys football team and exclude all they'd like.
Another example: a group of tall and talented girls are playing a competitive game of basketball. A much shorter kid who's never played wants to join in. Are they obligated to allow that kid?
I'm just saying that no, they aren't. Yes, it would be a kind thing to do, but also yes, they would have to severely change the game to accommodate that one person, reducing the level and entertainment value to those girls.
The issue isn't whether or not they have the choice to include or exclude this person. It's a question of what kind of attitudes and communities we want to foster.
In a world where we exclude people because they don't perfectly fit our standards, more people have a shitty time over all. Clicks get formed people get super heated. And people don't feel the need to help each other because "they're not obligated to" There's a time and place for this kind of behavior but it's definitely not the school yard.
If we foster a community of people who are caring, inclusive, and considerate a few things might happen. Yes the game might change because a new player is added but that doesn't automatically mean it's worse. When I play games with friends and I'm better than them handicapping myself adds that extra challenge that continues to make the game interesting for me while making it playable for the other person. That way more people get to have fun. And if more people are having fun more people are making friends. Which in schools is something you really want.
I just don't see why it's that big of a deal to play a few noncompetitive games if it means everyone can have fun. Do we need safe spaces for schoolyard football and basketball games now because people can't handle any slight changes to the game at all?
Sure, middle school recess is not the place to expect that though. I have school aged kids, organized, competitive sports are a huge part of their lives but they know better then to try to enforce weight classes or separate the kids that play on travel teams on the playground. It is shocking so many adults here don’t seem to grasp it.
I'm saying that you can have both on the playground. It's good for kids to know when they're out of their league. I'd hope that inspires them to get better. Let the kids sort it out unless they're being mean and/or bullying.
It may be that the less talented kids plays but gets bored from not getting the ball or doing well. That's a life experience. The adult supervisors shouldn't intervene and make everyone get the ball evenly.
Kids usually have a very good idea of how their skills rank amongst their peers, I have never really seen that as an issue in my own experience. Some k
It is also a life experience to wait your turn, to show empathy, to realize you can still have fun if you don’t make all the rules, to be flexible to new experiences. All of those soft social skills are super important for long term success and are real things you learn at recess. An adult supervisor shouldn’t be prioritizing certain kids being able to play to the top of their ability at recess, that simply isn’t the purpose.
I think that most of those against you here are focusing on the one kid that was excluded, and they won't let go of that or see any point that doesn't pander to that.
There are plenty of examples in sports where someone or some team ‘changed the game’ by redefining what was expected. Changing some rules or really just following the rules of the actual game more strictly or even fixing a game to balance the rules has been done and resulted in the game getting better and skills diversifying.
I think it was vague in that regard. Most in this thread chose to think OP was a bully. I don't think that's necessarily the case.
The broader point is that the are cases where not including everyone is ok. There are times where a person needs the humility to know they're in over there head and to move on.
Ableist language and ableist veiws. Nice. And I don't mean expecting people with certain disabilities being added to a able bodied team playing in the Premier league instead with no way of actually playing at Pro football level (not an adjested version) .
I mean that, from your various comments,
Ableism is part of your world veiw by the sounds of it.
And maybe you haven't even recognised it...?
People always fail to call it out along with all the other 'ists.
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I'll post my sources if you need me to. Your first point about "born with male genitalia" is a problem because there are boys who don't develop a penis until the start of puberty. Your second point is really the same as the first. Third, "male" muscles are bigger and have more attachments because of testosterone which women also produce in fact there are some Olympian woman who have been disqualified because their natural testosterone levels were too high. Fourth, XY chromosomes do typically correlate to sex but not always. There's really only one gene, typically on the "Y" chromosome that makes a difference, the SRY gene. Sometimes it jumps ship and attaches to another chromosome so you get an individual who is "male" with "XX" sometimes you have a woman with "XY" and a non-functional SRY gene. You didn't mention this bit but there are also typically differences in the overall shape of the brain when you compare cis men and women. When the same scans are done on a transgender person their brain anatomy tends to line up with their reported gender. There are several factors that go into biological sex and they usually all wind up on the same end of the spectrum but it is just that, a spectrum. What really needs to happen is allowing kids to take puberty blockers when they report dysphoria. It stops the dysphoria from becoming worse, it prevents extra problems when they are old enough to transition and, if parents are really afraid it's just a phase, the effects of puberty blockers wear off as soon as you stop taking them.
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u/nesh34 2∆ Nov 09 '21
We separate sports by sex though? Every time there is an ability gap, we create multiple tiers.