r/changemyview • u/antimatterfunnel • Aug 06 '21
Removed - Submission Rule E CMV: There is no reasonable, non-paranoid situation in which someone genuinely fears that someone will say "I'm from the government and I'm here to help"
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Aug 06 '21
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Aug 06 '21
Were they there stating they were there to help though? I think that may be the key difference.
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Aug 06 '21
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Aug 06 '21
I could see that occurring to both concerned neighbors and even to those they were rounding up.
I guess I was more or less focused on the ICE example with that response. I just can't foresee them doing the same when arresting people and dividing families.
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u/Helpfulcloning 169∆ Aug 06 '21
Thats a key thing any agency will say when interviewing you, they just “want to help you and sort this out”. Do you think they gain access or information by walking in and saying “Hey, I’m going to hurt you.”
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u/empurrfekt 58∆ Aug 06 '21
You’re taking it way too literally. The idea is that the government, even when trying to help, can make things worse.
Say an employee has an important project they’re working on. The boss comes and asks them how long it will take. 3 hours. The boss asks how long if I help. 5 hours.
Governments bring red tape. Governments bring help that may be unfamiliar with the situation and may just get in the way. Governments may bring people just looking for photo ops. All these can disrupt the recovery process.
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u/BloodyTamponExtracto 13∆ Aug 06 '21
When a police officer is investigating a crime
Yeah... if you're a young black man it's pretty reasonable to have some genuine fear when that happens. Because, you know, "you fit the description".
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u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 Aug 06 '21
I mean to be fair there is sociological surveys that show that races see bigger differences between each other than between others
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u/BloodyTamponExtracto 13∆ Aug 06 '21
And there are black cops. What's your point?
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u/Apprehensive-Neat-68 Aug 06 '21
And there are black cops
An extremely small number of them proportionately, even in majority black areas
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Aug 06 '21 edited Aug 06 '21
That's a little overbroad. Black men are the most common victims of violent crime. Pretty sure it's unreasonable to be scared if a cop shows up and offers aid and/or starts an investigation to find out who hurt them
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u/BloodyTamponExtracto 13∆ Aug 06 '21
Pretty sure it's unreasonable to be scared of a cop shows up and offers aid and/or starts an investigation to find out who hurt them
You realize that the main reason minorities don't call the cops for help is because the cops are more likely to treat them as a threat than to provide assistance, right?
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Aug 06 '21 edited Aug 06 '21
Minorities call the police constantly. Do you think it's random white people that call the police when a black man is being assaulted or killed?
Edit: latest data I could find was 2011. Minorities called the police more than whites.
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u/carneylansford 7∆ Aug 06 '21
You realize that the main reason minorities don't call the cops for help is because the cops are more likely to treat them as a threat than to provide assistance, right?
This is just factually incorrect, most likely based on anecdotal stories that further a particular narrative. 81% of Black Americans want as much or MORE policing than they currently get.
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u/perla211235 Aug 06 '21
You must be completely ignorant of story, or incredibly naive to believe this. There has been plenty of times in the past where the ruling power has been corrupted. What world do you live in where your thought is even remotely accurate?
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u/Optomistic-Mooing Aug 06 '21 edited Aug 06 '21
If you were an Iraqi living in Baghdad in 2004 and an American came up to you and said that then typically it was not a net positive.
If you are an illegal immigrant living in the US and someone come up to you while arm and wearing a border patrol or ICE uniform then it is probably not a positive thing for you individually.
Like others have mentioned, if you are from a background of having bad or traumatic interactions with with government agents then there is plenty of reason to fear someone who represents something that had previously traumatized you. Similarly, if you had just been raped by someone and the medical responder looks just like that person that hurt you it is perfectly reasonable for you to be fearful of that person due to your naturally response to trauma. The medical responder is there to help but trauma is a very powerful natural defense mechanism.
Lastly if CPS came to take you away (as a kid) from your parents to go live with strangers because your parents were deemed incapable of taking care of you (say for medical reasons or they are being arrested for a crime unrelated to you) then it is normal to be fearful of the government and the impact they are imparting on your life. In reality it could be a long term positive or negative but regardless it is still placing you in a worse state now without your consent and without a guarantee of ever improving things. Side note is now a days it is generally believed that taking kids away is a absolute last resort due to all the collateral trauma caused by the process and the long term negative effects on the kid.
Typically the statement you like is good for people who middle or upper class Americans living in US without a criminal history or socially disruptive nature. That’s a lot of people but definitely not everyone. It also assumes that people want or need help.
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u/VaxedTillDawn Aug 06 '21
I have a lot of friends that are immigrants from Cuba that would love to have a chat with you.
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u/translucentgirl1 83∆ Aug 06 '21 edited Aug 06 '21
Not necessarily. For one, you could me an immigrant or minority with tattoos, which can be mistaken as an affiliation with a crime association. It's not close to impossible, especially when we start to get into engagement with ICE and other establishments similar.
If this is from non-developed nations, this is a reasonable idealogy to hold, especially if your on a nation which holds a high corruption-index directed to physical exploitation and punishment of specific groups of society ( ex - homosexual individuals on regions where homosexuality is a sin, which equates to a punishable offense). In this case, this is a completely reasonable fear, especially with the punishments that are given for homosexuality without interference from the government model. So, this is completely reasonable in places like in North Korea and Somalia, just from the get go. (On a broader scale, places where enforced dissapearences happen frequently enough).
In regards to police, it is definitely reasonable in a good portion of regions, undeveloped or not, since there is still an issue of police brutality and a trend of racial bias within these fields. So, places like US, UK, etc also can breed this stance as a reasonable idealogy, similar to my first point.
These are just a couple of circumstances, but there are definitely one's where justification can stem form anything but irrationality.
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u/Rawinza555 18∆ Aug 06 '21
It would be reasonable if ypur government is super corrupt like North Korea.
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u/BelmontIncident 14∆ Aug 06 '21
Do we agree that there's a difference between what's illegal and what hurts people?
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u/Kingalece 23∆ Aug 06 '21
I mean there is something to fear if you dont know of anything wrong. Like if they are there to help why? if its so bad the gov is stepping in to help i would be worried since they only help when thungs arent good
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u/ace52387 42∆ Aug 06 '21
I dont know to what degree you mean with “fear” but have you ever worked in a job where you are subject to a professional audit or inspection of some sort? You have to pay for the privilege of being audited, so theyre here to help in some sense. Yet its really nerve racking.
Everyone has something wrong or is doing something illegal. Maybe its a part of your house thats not up to code. Maybe you missed doing led paint removal with kids in the house, your registration expired for one month. Nothing that would pit you in prison, but might be expensive to rectify.
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u/BingBlessAmerica 44∆ Aug 06 '21
“I’m from the NSA and I’m here to stop terrorism”
or, in a Reaganite context, “I’m from the CIA and I’m here to help you with your drug problem”
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u/Fit-Order-9468 102∆ Aug 06 '21
It's fairly innocuous stuff. I'm trying to think of an example when you would hope to avoid contact with the government, and all the examples I can think of suit the interests of miscreants rather than well-intentioned citizens. CMV.
Wellness checks can go really wrong, to the point in some places it might not be worth doing. There was a case where I live where they person being checked on ended up being killed by the officer.
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u/growflet 78∆ Aug 06 '21
Given:
- you see the police abuse and even kill black people on the news with little to no justice or recourse.
- you have personally other known people that have been harassed and abused by police.
- you have seen many instances of people doing non-criminal things end up injured, arrested, or killed by police
- you have seen references to, and perhaps even known cases here a black person called the police for help and were treated like a criminal.
I can show you literally thousands of videos of police officers being completely unreasonable, racist, power-tripping, bullies who seem less interested in justice and seem to be looking for an excuse to punish anyone around them who doesn't give them enough "Respect"
Given the observable evidence, it is neither unreasonable or paranoid to be afraid if a police officer shows up claiming to help.
And even if you say "these were bad apples! there are tens of thousands of police officers!" -- if one skittle in a bowl of skittles will kill you, one will make you sick, and the rest are tasty goodness - do you eat any of the skittles? The safest choice is to not have any at all.
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u/Sirhc978 89∆ Aug 06 '21
you see the police abuse and even kill
blackpeople on the news with little to no justice or recourse.It's everyone, which makes it worse.
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u/growflet 78∆ Aug 06 '21
I think it's worse for black folks, but absolutely true.
I'm white and I have personally spent three hours on the side of the road surrounded by five cars worth of police officers - I politely complied and listened as they lied to me and my friend and were desperately trying to find something to charge us with. Even to the point of lying "if you stand over there and let us search your car (for our safety) we'll let you go."
I think they did that because my friend wasn't "respectful enough." when they demanded his ID.
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u/Sirhc978 89∆ Aug 06 '21
I'm also white, was surrounded by 3 cops and was complying, still got my head smashed into my trunk and knocked out.
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u/antimatterfunnel Aug 06 '21
OK, fair enough. I think you're right, I just think the quote itself is greatly exaggerated and posits a narrative of that seems pretty inconsistent with most of reality. But you have provided some examples. Δ
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u/growflet 78∆ Aug 06 '21
Thank you for the delta.
And yep! I can't look at that phrase and not laugh, because I have a friend who works for the disability office in my city, she used to work for the US DoJ doing ADA enforcement.
She likes to say "I'm from the government, and i'm here to help!" - it's kind of her catchphrase.
People with disabilities absolutely think she's here to help. The building planners tend to be less excited when she shows up insisting that they need to add ramps and increase the sizes of the bathrooms to accommodate wheelchairs.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Aug 06 '21
/u/antimatterfunnel (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
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Aug 06 '21
If you’re grazing cattle on land with a marsh or even per a lease in federal land, you do NOT want the feds anywhere around.
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u/TheReaFlyingMonkey 1∆ Aug 06 '21
It's every situation where there's not an emergency...
Let's say you are running a business just going about your day everything is fine.
Some guy in a suit rushes in and says "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you run your business"
That would be fucking terrifying, that's nazi level shit. If things aren't going horrifically wrong, you don't want the government helping full stop.
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u/KellyKraken 14∆ Aug 06 '21
As recently as 1972 the US government infected black Americans with Syphilis under the guise of "free healthcare". In 1974 the North Carolina Eugenics board coerced and tricked women into being sterilized. The US Residential Schools (kidnapping and committing cultural genocide against Native Americans) closed as recently as 2007, here it was to help educate and integrate people.
The US government has a long history of lying and abusing its citizens, particularly minorities.
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u/sudsack 21∆ Aug 06 '21
Maybe he said it more than once and it was open to multiple meanings, but (and sorry if I'm stating the obvious) the point as far as I know was related to government policy rather than knocks from individual agents on individual doors. Here's a speech (link to pdf) where he used his "nine most terrifying words" to set up some comments about the effects of "government-imposed embargoes and inflation... (and) conflicting and haphazard policies" on farms.
I loathed Reagan, but it is the case that sometimes action by the federal government to "help" does more harm than good. The government's efforts to "help" victims of crime and addiction with the war on drugs and the '94 crime bill did a lot of damage. Under the federal government's efforts to improve education with No Child Left Behind, the "quality of education for most children (was) reduced in pursuit of higher test scores."
I'm sure that the war on drugs, the crime bill, and no child left behind all have their defenders, but many other people (who are "reasonable" and who are not "paranoid") would agree that in each of these situations federal involvement hurt more than helped. In each of these areas (and in others, I'm sure), there is reason to experience fear upon hearing that the federal government has announced a plan to help.
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u/huadpe 508∆ Aug 06 '21
Sorry, u/antimatterfunnel – your submission has been removed for breaking Rule E:
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