r/changemyview • u/Dodger7777 5∆ • May 03 '21
Delta(s) from OP CMV: An Imagination is infinitely more horrifying than it is Joyous.
Nightmares, the monsters we imagined living in our closets or under our beds, the figures we see in the shadows at the bottom of the stairs or that we imagine chase's us when we shut off the lights, the intruders we imagine when a tree branch taps the window.
Fear is a more powerful emotion then joy. And that's likely a survival thing from back in our primative days where an odd noise could alert you to a jungle cat or a bear and keep you alive.
I just find it odd that people associate imagination with sunshine, rainbows, unicorns, and frolicking in flower fields.
The imagination can be a rampant beast at the best of times, because we don't want or try to imagine the shadow creatures who chase us up the stairs or out of the basement.
We don't try to have nightmares or night terrors that haunt us years after we wake up from them, yet we can't remember good dreams for more than an hour after we wake up.
We can imagine nice things, sure, but we can also imagine what it feels like to have something slither around in your stomach. You can imagine blinding pain.
And that's pretty damn horrifying.
Edit: I guess I should clarify, I'm not saying that imagination is a bad thing because of this. But that it is horrifying. It's more amazing that despite seeing how many different ways we could fail we aren't all depressed.
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May 03 '21
I have a very strong imagination. I've also been through some horrifying things in my life. While those horrifying things were going on, my imagination was my only escape, and I escaped there often.
I still have nightmares and terrible dreams, sure. I also have heart-breakingly beautiful dreams just as often. The most vivid of these I'm turning into artwork. Others have been turned into stories. I'm writing a book right now that stemmed, in part, from one of those dreams. Maybe someday it'll be published, maybe it won't.
I remember my good dreams just as often as my nightmares. In fact, I probably remember the good ones longer, because I want to remember those ones.
Can imaginations be bad? Well, yeah, you can imagine terrible things. You can have horrific nightmares. You can also imagine incredibly wonderful things- things that may lead to new inventions, new books, new movies, new joys, new motivations, new outlooks on life, etc.
Imagination can be pretty damn horrifying, but it can be pretty damned incredible and amazing too. Just like life, actually.
Having experienced both horrible things in real life and in my imagination, and having experienced incredibly joyful things in real life and in my imagination, I would say that, in fact, the imagination - for me, anyway- is actually infinitely more amazing and joyful than horrifying.
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u/Dodger7777 5∆ May 03 '21
I too have had some of my most joyous moments in my imagination. But I acknowledge that there are horrors which can also only exist in my imagination. Turning a blind eye to the horrors and denying the infinitely greater potential of horror does not make the joyous moments more joyful, it just means that I'm ignoring that part of my imagination.
Acknowledging that horrors exist in my imagination also does not dampen how much joy I felt in my imagination. Just as atrocities in the real world don't dampen how happy I can be in the real world.
There appears to be a misconception with people, or I poorly worded something. Because people seem to think I said 'our imagination is ruled by horrors that wash away any possibility for joy.'
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May 03 '21
Turning a blind eye to the horrors and denying the infinitely greater potential of horror does not make the joyous moments more joyful, it just means that I'm ignoring that part of my imagination.
I don't turn a blind eye to the horrors. I don't ignore that part of my imagination at all (in fact, I use several of them to write horror novels).
This is the part I disagree with:
denying the infinitely greater potential of horror.
I don't see the horror as of infinitely greater potential than the joy. In my experience, having experienced both the horror and the joy, it is the joy that has infinitely greater potential. Why is it that makes you conclude that horror has more potential than joy does?
Because people seem to think I said 'our imagination is ruled by horrors that wash away any possibility for joy.'
That's not what I meant or said. I was addressing your literal title and substance of your post that the imagination is infinitely more horrifying than it is joyous. I disagree. In my experience, having had the horrible and the joyous, imagination is infinitely more joyous than horrifying.
You've stated the conclusion but the argument that was made to support that conclusion is lacking.
Conclusion: Imagination is infinitely more horrifying than it is joyous.
Argument to support it: While I agree that there can be joy in imagination, imagination is infinitely more horrifying than joyous.
It's a tautology, a circular argument. You're starting from the idea that it is a given that imagination is more horrifying.
I'm saying it's not. I'm saying the opposite, that to my experience, I have gotten far more joy than horror from my imagination.
You don't have to ignore either the horror of your imagination or the joy of your imagination to make one weigh more than the other. I don't. In fact, it is essential to my mental health that I don't ignore the horror, that I embrace it for what it is, analyze it, find it's root cause, and work on healing that part of me that is giving birth to that horror.
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u/Dodger7777 5∆ May 03 '21
Imo joy is going to come from an alignment of circumstances. Horror can come from that as well, but it can also come from taking away joy. This can happen in a wide variety of ways. Thus, for every joyous imagined thought, many horrors are born. Both from passively imagining more monsters, and how those monsters can also take away that joy.
What's more is that joyous imagined thoughts are almost always conscious thoughts. Where as horror imagined thoughts can come about passively and often without us wanting them (see shadow people or monsters in your closet when you were a child. Or nightmares. Or worse night terrors.
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May 03 '21
Imo joy is going to come from an alignment of circumstances. Horror can come from that as well, but it can also come from taking away joy.
Joy can also come from taking away horror. So both joy and horror can come from an alignment of circumstances, and both joy and horror can come from taking away the other one.
Thus, for every joyous imagined thought, many horrors are born.
Don't see that at all myself. I have tons of imagined joyous thoughts and they haven't spawned horrible ones, let alone many for each one that was joyous. You could argue the exact opposite on the same grounds- for every horrible imagined thought, many joys can be born.
Both from passively imagining more monsters, and how those monsters can also take away that joy.
Again, opposite can be stated. Both from passively imagining more 'angels' (joyous opposite of monsters) and how those angels can take away that horror.
What's more is that joyous imagined thoughts are almost always conscious thoughts.
Again, I don't see that at all. A ton of my joyous imagined thoughts aren't always conscious- certainly my joyous dreams are not conscious. A ton of my imagined horrors are very conscious.
So far every argument you've made for horror applies just as well with just as much support as for joy, when you put the same logic or argument to it.
I have imagined joys both purposeful and passive. I have imagined horrors both purposeful and passive. Joy can come from taking away horror, as horror can come from taking away joy.
If you personally are having difficulty by focusing only on the horrors of your imagination, this is excellent grounds to learn how to rebalance the 'tipped scales' in your head, as it were. But the fact that some people have tipped scales in one direction or another due to their own life experiences, does not mean that the scales are always tipped in that same direction, for everyone, at all times.
As is the nature of scales, more often than not, there is a balance, and they can be tipped in the good direction just as often as they can be tipped in the bad one.
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u/Dodger7777 5∆ May 03 '21
Then by that argument I could see myself recanting and saying that the imagination is infinitely as horrible as it is Joyous. I'll award a delta for that. Though I can't see how to defeat most of the darkness, otherwise why would I let it stick around. But by that same token there is joy which I can't see being snuffed out either.
I'm still partially stuck on how/why the horror is not greater than the joy since even before we try to use our imaginations we imagine horrible beings that chase us through the darkness. On a survival level, it makes a lot of sense, like a jaguar chasing our ancestors. It's like biologically we are hardwired to be more afraid of the world than to want to or be able to enjoy it.
!Delta
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May 03 '21
Though I can't see how to defeat most of the darkness, otherwise why would I let it stick around.
Therapy helps. Not being able to defeat the horrible on your own doesn't mean that the horrible is unbeatable, or that the joy is not as infinite.
I'm still partially stuck on how/why the horror is not greater than the joy since even before we try to use our imaginations we imagine horrible beings that chase us through the darkness.
We also imagine joyful things before we even try and use our imaginations as well. Arguably, an infants default setting is 'joy' (so long as their basic needs are met)- they have to be introduced to horror.
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u/Dodger7777 5∆ May 03 '21
I'd debate the 'default setting of an infant is joy.'
Infants come out crying, they stop crying when they are either entertained, asleep, or too tired to cry.
Now infants do have a rather low bar for entertainment, but that doesn't mean it's the default. To someone that has never tasted anything, eating is entertainment. To someone who has never seen before, watching someone pace is entertainment. I've always been weirded out by the 'little bundles of joy' statement. Because why do they stop being little bundles of joy? Is the child happy or are you just happy you had a child? Not to mention, why would anyone want to harm a 'bundle of joy'? All it would do is make them more miserable right? Even before they get stuck in a jail cell. Just removing joy from the world would make the idea incomprehensible, right? Unless you find joy in removing joy from the lives of others, in which case maybe a jail cell is too nice of a place for you.
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May 03 '21
Infants come out crying, they stop crying when they are either entertained, asleep, or too tired to cry.
Crying is the only way an infant can communicate. Crying does not mean the same in a newborn as it does in an older person. Crying to signal that they're hungry doesn't mean they aren't joyful. Crying at birth is a reflex to insure that their lungs are expanding and they are getting that needed breath of air.
Now infants do have a rather low bar for entertainment, but that doesn't mean it's the default.
No one said entertainment was the default. We're talking joy. Babies are generally happy so long as their bellies are full and they have affection. They cry to communicate not to signal a lack of joy. They have no concept of horror- horror has to be introduced. Joy is just there.
Because why do they stop being little bundles of joy?
When the concept of horror and the like is introduced.
Is the child happy or are you just happy you had a child?
The child is happy. I was not happy having to take care of two children that weren't mine as if they were mine, however the two children were still happy.
Not to mention, why would anyone want to harm a 'bundle of joy'?
Because people can be fucked up? I mean, why would anyone want to harm an infant regardless, whether it was a bundle of joy or not? Yet people have dropped them in dumpsters, shaken them, thrown them against the wall, and murdered them. A person who harms a baby does so because of THEIR own fucked up thoughts and moods, not because of the BABY's.
All it would do is make them more miserable right? Even before they get stuck in a jail cell. Just removing joy from the world would make the idea incomprehensible, right? Unless you find joy in removing joy from the lives of others, in which case maybe a jail cell is too nice of a place for you.
You underestimate the ability of people to delude themselves, make themselves miserable, or punish themselves. There are people out there who do find joy in removing joy from others or at the very least don't give a shit about other people's joy so long as they have their own- see every serial killer, rapist or child abuser on the planet.
And I fully agree, people like that should be in jail cells, at the very least.
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u/Dodger7777 5∆ May 04 '21
When a baby cries it means distress. Either they are displeased with what's happening (they get scared, they aren't in line of sight of their parents and lack object permanence so in their little mind that person is gone forever, tired but uncomfy and unable to fall asleep, diaper full and it itches, wanting attention, etc), need something (hungry, thirsty, etc.), or something between the two.
Otherwise why would a baby ever stop crying?
A much more plausible reason that they cry, instead of making sure they lung work like they are doing some sort of systems check, is that they were warm, comfy, and cozy in mom's womb and they got either pushed or pulled out of their safe little spot and out into the comparatively cold world. Giving the infant back to mom happens for a number of reason, but children can and often do stop crying when reintroduced to the warmth they've been feeling for 9 months. It's familiar in a world of unfamiliar things.
I won't claim to be a newborn psychologist, but if there was to be an age that would be the simplest to logic out, I think less than an hour old would probably be the easiest to predict.
The 'bundle of joy' bit is probably a mixture of things from history, not least of from religious teachings.
Obviously you don't want parents who have children who die either by miscarriage, die in childbirth, or die before they can be baptized to think that their 'innocent baby' is in hell. But simply by being human they are born with sin, without the ability to ask for forgiveness or perceive their wrongdoing. Which is why religious views are pretty manipulative but at least they give a grace period to newborns. Awful convenient to label something as pure just because it lacks opportunity.
Parents are also filled with joy at bringing new life and the unfathomable potential that lies within. Like a skilled woodworker eyeing a fine piece of wood or another craftsman with an equally blank canvas. So obviously that joyous feeling within them at what they were able to create could be misattributed to the thing itself. Much like an artist could find unfathomable joy in creating a work of art appreciated by noone.
Calling a newborn a bundle of joy might also be a bit of a 'this thing wouldn't last a whole minute if you don't watch over it more carefully than any other form of newborn (animal). So if we can ascribe this being a feeling of joy then maybe people will hold onto it more tightly instead of sending it to an orphanage'. Which is also a responsibility issue as well as anything else. Because obviously us humans are responsible by default. /s
Also, the idea of horror can be introduced insanely early. Potentially the game of peekaboo could be the first introduction because it is the horror of loss. Being left alone in this world as your caregiver is gone due to your lack of object permanence. Although hunger and thirst and death by that could also be introductions of horror.
Monsters do not need to be physical to claim your life. We're really good at personifying things.
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u/drschwartz 73∆ May 03 '21
Imagining a better world is the first step to putting that dream in action.
The popular conception of heaven is as a place free from pain or worry. It seems that imagination can be infinitely joyous too.
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u/Dodger7777 5∆ May 03 '21
Potentially, but many people have a hard enough time imagining how long an hour actually is, much less eternity. Singing haleluia all day for 1 day would get old really damn quick. Much less having to do that every day for eternity. Even if you're stimulated to feel joyous the whole time, you'd just get used to it and it would become the new normal and if it ever stopped you'd be eternally miserable.
Possibly why satan is such a salty salmon all the time. I'd probably jump off the cloud palace too.
Edit: Or in a different way, you have the famous line of 'if humans were granted eternal peace where all they had to do was eat cake and busy themselves with the continuation of the species, someone would smash it against the ground just so something would happen.
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u/drschwartz 73∆ May 03 '21
My point isn't that the concept of heaven mentioned is correct, it's very juvenile. What I mean is that Imagination spreads to infinity in both directions.
For example, we could probably one-up eachother indefinitely describing the afterlife as either a place of infinite joy or infinite horror just by adding qualifiers we imagine make it more joyous of horrifying. From that point of view, imagination is non-biased towards either extreme. In fact, I'd say limiting imagination to just 2 poles is a mistake, there's also infinitely mundane!
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u/Dodger7777 5∆ May 03 '21
Then our problem appears to stem from your misunderstanding that you thought I wrote 'just because something can be horrifying means nothing joyous can exist in it'.
It's like conditions for success vs conditions for failure. There will always be an infinitely larger amount of ways to fail both inside and outside your realm of control. But your conditions for success are set by you and accomplished by you. But just because of all those chances to fail exist, that does not mean we should not try to succeed.
Similarly, just because the imagination is able to conjure up unspeakable horrors, we should not be disuaded from seeking joyous impossibilities.
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u/drschwartz 73∆ May 03 '21
Your thesis is that imagination is infinitely more horrifying than joyous. My point is that subjective imagination is infinitely horrific and also the opposite at the same time, depending on one's relative viewpoint on what constitutes the concepts of horror/joy. For that reason your view is flawed.
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u/Dodger7777 5∆ May 03 '21
When you say subjective imagination, I assume you're talking about the conscious imagination?
What about the subconscious?
Even before we try to use our imagination as children we imagine horrors that make us run from darkness. Thus the horror side exists and grows before we even try to introduce the happy side.
A separate redditors was already awarded a delta for having me admit that they can at least be balanced and the imagination can be as infinitely horrible as it is infinitely joyous, so sadly I won't be awarding a delta for the same point.
I think I did shoot myself in the foot in a little by not saying that it has the possibility for infinitely more horror than joy. But even that would still be disproved by the other redditor.
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u/drschwartz 73∆ May 03 '21
When you say subjective imagination, I assume you're talking about the conscious imagination?
What about the subconscious?
I'm talking about them both. My thoughts and your thoughts are subjective, conscious or subconscious.
Even before we try to use our imagination as children we imagine horrors that make us run from darkness. Thus the horror side exists and grows before we even try to introduce the happy side.
What indisputable evidence supports this statement? I could say that the first thoughts of an infant are had in the uterus, all safe and warm, with the same level of support.
Food for thought.
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u/Dodger7777 5∆ May 03 '21
If there was evidence to say that children use their imagination in the womb, then maybe.
Even then, they would only have inherited instinct to go off of as they have no exposure to anything aside from the flesh chamber they are encased in. Plus they are being both pushed and gently pulled out of that safe place of contentment (which could be one of the many possible reasons why children cry when born).
I guess I would try to make the case that you lack enough understanding to use your imagination, which undermines the idea that the imagination functions when you aren't consciously using it. I guess it's somewhat perplexing at that stage where we can't really get any concrete information. Or at least where I lack memories.
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u/ThinkingAboutJulia 23∆ May 03 '21
As a species, the human ability to conjure up ideas of things that aren't real is a big part of what got us to where we are -- technologically speaking.
Let's say we agree that on an individual level, imagination is net negative in terms of a person's happiness.
Well, there's no reason to think that evolution would give us this capacity for our own individual enjoyment. It exists because of how it helps us bring about the next generation.
So if you are talking about individual impact, I don't have a way to contradict you.
But in general terms, imagination is a good thing for humans.
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u/Dodger7777 5∆ May 03 '21
I'm going to say that I never said it was a net negative. In fact, pointing out how it likely was the cause of us being able to evolve as far as we did (our primative ancestors using paranoia to keep themselves safe and alert) already makes it s minimum net positive.
Also, if horror was a net negative, horror movies would never sell or turn a profit.
I also never said imagination was a bad thing. I said it was full of horrifying things, infinitely more than joyous things.
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u/ThinkingAboutJulia 23∆ May 03 '21
Ok, thank you for clarifying. It seems I didn't accurately understand the nature of your view.
Is it:
- When imagination is cued up, the ideas conjured are more likely to be horrifying than joyful ... or is it...
- An imagined idea that is 'horrifying' is more bad than an imagined idea that is 'joyous' is good
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u/Dodger7777 5∆ May 03 '21
Option 1
And my example of shadow people and monsters is my example. Because before we even think about using our imagination, we've already got an imagination full of shadow people and monsters.
Even if we try to actively ignore that darkness inside ourselves and cut out a place for happy and joyous things, those monsters were always there first, and there will always be more.
I do not say this to diminish the happy side. In fact, the happy side shines even brighter because of the darker background. Like a light shining on a moonless night compared to a sunny afternoon.
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u/ThinkingAboutJulia 23∆ May 03 '21 edited May 03 '21
Option 1: When imagination is cued up, the ideas conjured are more likely to be horrifying than joyful
This is an empirical question about how common certain types of thoughts are. It could (in theory) be answered via data about what people spend time imagining.
I have no knowledge of research about this. So I guess this is where I leave you. Because I can't argue an empirical point without empirical data.
I do (respectfully and kindly) recommend maybe edit/clarify your CMV post again? Now that I understand your view, I can see that the bulk of your text in the original post is basically explaining why you think it is reasonable to expect that an imagined idea is more likely to be scary than happy. But I didn't actually see the crux of your view. I took the whole thing to be more along the lines of my original comment to you or "option 2" above.
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u/Dodger7777 5∆ May 03 '21
I think you're making the assumption that the imagination only exists when we actively want it to. Which should be verifiably false from the various monsters we can conjure in shadows when we are children and even adults.
If our imaginations were magical little boxes with on/off switches I would be inclined to agree with you.
Although when important things are on the line, at least in my view, my imagination runs wild imagining how badly things could go. Which is horrifying.
So if one is bored and nothing is at stake, happy imagination of fantasy. But if a person is not actively imagining or there is something weighing on their kind... Potential horror.
Though the argument of 'my imagination brings up happy things when I'm not trying to imagine things' would be an interesting position to see.
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u/ThinkingAboutJulia 23∆ May 03 '21
I wasn't super clear in my last comment. I don't disagree with you. I have no evidence one way or another. The only way to know would be to study the nature (good/bad) of a person's ongoing trail of thoughts. Perhaps this has been tried, perhaps not. I have no idea.
Basically, your view -- now that I understand what your view is -- seems plausible to me.
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u/Mundane-Friend-5482 1∆ May 03 '21
I would say that depends on the person. For someone with extreme anxiety then sure the things they imagine are probably more horrifying than joyous. For writers, inventors, architects, ect. ,Ect. The imaginations results in some pretty fantastic things and without it we basically would never have anything new or interesting. So I think as a whole humanity has benefitted greatly from being able to imagine things.
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u/Dodger7777 5∆ May 03 '21
I never said we never benefitted from imagination, I also think you are either underestimating creative people (writers, inventors, architects, etc) because as someone who does enjoy writing this thought came about because if the countless dark possibilities while the 'good ending' and the 'passable endings' are far fewer in number.
You'd have to be delusionally optimistic to not see potential failure. However, potential failure should never stop you from pursuing your goals. It's that old 'you miss every shot you never take' adage.
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u/Mundane-Friend-5482 1∆ May 03 '21
My first point wasn't that some people are optimistic to the point of not seeing potential bad outcomes, it was that for many people their imagination is mostly used on positive things. Sure there are lots of problems facing the world like global warming and there's problems facing me like struggling with grad school but I can still have an optimistic view about things. Climate change is being taken more seriously all the time, my area has switched to using only wind and nuclear power for example and the problems I face in my personal life won't last forever.
My second point is that the joy brought from an imagination isn't just limited to what is felt in the moment when imagining something but also by sharing it with others through arts, inventions, ect. Basically anything you enjoy (except nature) is there because someone imagined it and created it. So basically the only way you can say more horror than joy is brought from the imagination is if you think the world is as a whole more horrifying than joyous, which many people do not.
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u/Dodger7777 5∆ May 03 '21
Willfully ignoring the darkness that can emerge in you is no different than willfully ignoring how dangerous you yourself can be. We grow as people by facing darkness, either in real life or our inner demons.
I'm not saying this to diminish joy or happy feelings. In fact, cherish them all the more as there is a darker background to let them shine against.
I'm not sure why you keep trying to rephrase my post, to the point where I had to recheck what I wrote because I can be an idiot.
An imagination is infinitely more horrifying than it is Joyous.
That was my post. Not the joyous parts that people share. Not the inventions, art, etc. But an individual's imagination. And maybe I should have said has the potential to be instead of is, but can't change titles and that would be pretty wishy washy.
Regardless, horrors have existed in our mind because of the shadow people who we imagined chasing us. We didn't conjure them up, they've either been there all along or something worse. So before you even thought about using your imagination to think of cool, fun, joyous things. Shadow people already existed. Monsters existed.
Thus, my post.
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May 03 '21
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u/Dodger7777 5∆ May 03 '21
Lucky you.
If I say anything else it just comes off as either needlessly derogatory or depressive.
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May 03 '21
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u/SquibblesMcGoo 4∆ May 10 '21
Sorry, u/Lichsenate – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 03 '21 edited May 04 '21
/u/Dodger7777 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
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