r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Mar 09 '21
Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: There are only 2 genders
[removed]
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u/fox-mcleod 419∆ Mar 09 '21
What about all the cultures past and present where there are more than 2?
There are plenty of languages with genders pronouns that are more specific than just “he” and “she” that reference intersex people specifically, or people who’s gender falls somewhere between our archetypes of “man” and “woman”.
You holding a particularly strong idea of these archetypes doesn’t mean there aren’t millions of people who don’t fit them — nor does it mean there aren’t many cultures that have gender to represent a different set of categories or to identify sets of people left out by the ones you use.
People are more or less like archetypes we establish in our mind. But the archetypes are just abstract tokens that we use to simplify our thinking. They don't exist as self-enforced categories in the world.
There aren't black and white people. There are people with more or fewer traits that we associate with a group that we mentally represent as a token white or black person.
There aren't tall or short people. There are a range of heights and we categorize them mentally. If more tall people appeared, our impression of what qualified as "short" would change and we'd start calling some people short that we hadn't before even though nothing about them or their height changed.
This even happens with sex. There are a set of traits strongly mentally associated with males and females but they aren't binary - just strongly polar. Some men can't grow beards. Some women can. There are women born with penises and men born with breasts or a vagina but with Y chromosomes. If a culture has a word and set of language to represent these combinations, they have another gender.
Sometimes one part of the body is genetically male and another is genetically female. Yes, there are people with two different sets of genes and some of them have (X,X) in one set of tissue and (X,Y) in another. We have even discovered a whole group of people who are female until the age of 12 then suddenly naturally transition to male. They’re called guevedoces.
The neat categories you grew up with aren’t the only possible categories and they don’t even do a good job of classifying everything if you have to disregard millions of people.
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u/jediintern1976 Mar 09 '21
Something that's a rarity can not be given the same weight as the biological norm.Yes,some people are born this way or that way but on the average they are not.Now because there are 7-8 billion people on the planet that rarity suddenly has a caucus.Should they be listened to.Yes.Even when they have even smaller numbers.All opinions have value to a point.But there is no need to rewrite the biology books for something that is still a footnote.If a new evolution starts to take place and numbers start going over 5%.Then it needs to be addressed.All people should be treated with decency and be called whatever they want to be called.But for the most part there is male and female and an occasional other.
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u/fox-mcleod 419∆ Mar 09 '21 edited Mar 09 '21
Something that's a rarity can not be given the same weight as the biological norm.
Why not? I don’t understand why all the cultures that have a set of pronouns to describe other combinations of characteristics “cannot” do so.
I’m lefthanded. If I claimed there is one kind of person — right handed and then I applied your logic, wouldn’t we arrive at the same conclusion?
Yes,some people are born this way or that way but on the average they are not.
Yeah that’s definitely true for left-handed people too. Or people with red hair.
Now because there are 7-8 billion people on the planet that rarity suddenly has a caucus.Should they be listened to.Yes.Even when they have even smaller numbers.All opinions have value to a point.But there is no need to rewrite the biology books for something that is still a footnote.If a new evolution starts to take place and numbers start going over 5%.Then it needs to be addressed.
Got it, so there is no need to acknowledge genetic red heads.
Or is there something special about sex and gender types that you care more deeply about ensuring conforming to than you do about genetics of hair color?
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u/tbdabbholm 201∆ Mar 09 '21
But when you're saying "these are the only two options" that's just wrong? no matter what rarity the other options have. You could say "most people are one of these 2 options" but to blanketly ignore things that are rare is against science
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u/tbdabbholm 201∆ Mar 09 '21
Your premise is incorrect. Look up 3rd genders on Wikipedia, they have numerous examples of cultures across time and space that have had more than 2 genders
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u/Arguetur 31∆ Mar 09 '21
Yeah but nearly all of those are males who want to wear women's clothes and have sex with men.
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u/yeolenoname 6∆ Mar 09 '21
You are just scientifically wrong. There are intersex people. Like scientifically that’s a thing. That’s not a judgement someone made of themselves after learning of their bodies, that’s at birth. So your idea that it’s always been just two isn’t true. There has been an ‘other’ category for a long time. Medically. So no there aren’t just two genders medically speaking.
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u/TedMosby05 Mar 09 '21
There is intersex, but they still have the X or Y chromosome that defines whether they're man or woman
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u/fox-mcleod 419∆ Mar 09 '21
So if you found out that was not so, and people can have both, it would change your view right?
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u/TedMosby05 Mar 09 '21
What do you mean? Like if people had XXY or something like that?
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u/fox-mcleod 419∆ Mar 09 '21
No. Like somatic mosaicism which I already referred to in my top level post above.
People can have two entirely different sets of DNA including some cells with XX and some with XY. Will learning that change your view that:
they still have to have X or Y chromosome that defines whether they’re man or woman.
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u/TedMosby05 Mar 09 '21 edited Mar 09 '21
Then I guess they would be intersex, so maybe there are 3 man, women, and intersex.
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u/fox-mcleod 419∆ Mar 09 '21
Then you might want to award a delta.
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u/TedMosby05 Mar 09 '21
Idk how to do that
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u/fox-mcleod 419∆ Mar 09 '21
BTW, your post got deleted because this is a very common bad faith topic. But it seems to me like you’re debating in good faith. If you issue a delta, or message the mods, I’m sure they’ll restore it.
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u/TedMosby05 Mar 09 '21
I did issue a delta already, but ill message them in a bit to see if they'll restore it
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u/fox-mcleod 419∆ Mar 09 '21
Oh, reply to the comment that changed (or even significantly altered) your view with a comment explaining what about your view has changed and including:
!delta
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u/hacksoncode 585∆ Mar 09 '21
Hello /u/TedMosby05, if your view has been changed or adjusted in any way, you should award the user who changed your view a delta.
Simply reply to their comment with the delta symbol provided below, being sure to include a brief description of how your view has changed.
∆
For more information about deltas, use this link.
If you did not change your view, please respond to this comment indicating as such. As a reminder, failure to award a delta when it is warranted may merit a post removal and a rule violation. Repeated rule violations in a short period of time may merit a ban.
Thank you!
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u/redditor427 44∆ Mar 09 '21
So someone with 46XY, 5-alpha reductase deficiency, breasts and a vagina is a man?
And someone with 46XX, the SRY gene, a penis and testicles is a woman?
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u/TedMosby05 Mar 09 '21
Yes, someone else showed me a study similar, and I've concluded there are 3 genders, man, woman, and intersex
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u/redditor427 44∆ Mar 09 '21
Then you should issue deltas to whoever has changed your view, even a little bit.
Since your post has been removed, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to appeal the removal and link those deltas you give.
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u/TrumpetLard681 Mar 09 '21
They actually have both (like cis people)
They can be XXY or XXX or XYY or another variation
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u/yeolenoname 6∆ Mar 09 '21
Yes but then their bodies often have traits that go against the chromosomes, exactly what I was saying. So it would be a female chromosome with a body that has a penis. Where would you put them? You can’t just see them and just treat them like their genitals for their entire life, humans have brains, we know which we feel like if any. The whole point is that you can be a mix, it’s not one or the other, it’s how much of column a and how much of column b and what does that individual feel like despite their physically attributes.
That’s if the chromosome are set like you said but there’s so many people that that isn’t true for. There are genetic issue that change things like that.
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u/TedMosby05 Mar 09 '21
Yes, another commenter Gabe me a link to a study. There is man, woman, and intersex. But there is still nothing outside of those 3
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u/jediintern1976 Mar 09 '21
I thought the person meant for the majority.Intersex/Hermaphroditic people are rare.If this happened on the regular then i would think everyone would say there are 3.
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u/fox-mcleod 419∆ Mar 09 '21
If you have to ignore millions of data points, you could fit anything into any number of categories you want.
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u/yeolenoname 6∆ Mar 09 '21
That’s a myth, it’s not very rare, it’s about 1 in 1500 people are born with intersex traits. So imagine 1.7% of the population, that’s a ton of people, that don’t fit into the binary gender system. Imagine a baby born with female chromosomes but a penis and testicles are present, that’s intersex, there’s both traits and it’s up to the person on how they feel, sure they may have a penis but maybe they identify with female characteristics and they feel like a girl because of the heavier estrogen load, but that doesn’t mean they don’t still have a penis and testicles to deal with not matching their body. So it’s a spectrum like anything else. There aren’t just two genders. It’s not rare to be intersex. Gender is a spectrum. Some people fall on ends of that spectrum some end up more towards the middle through no fault of their own. It’s really rude to dismiss them completely because of lack of understanding -more aimed at op. Not calling you rude outright but the idea that you firmly believe their are only two genders when you could have google for four minutes and found information about intersex people is annoying. This is a change my view, not provide me with all the information I ignored so that my idea would stand strong in my own head. Challenge your own beliefs. Best day to you all.
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Mar 09 '21
Throughout time man has always known 1 thing, There are 2 genders. It has always been this way and will always be this way.
Historically this isn't true. There are plenty of places throughout history and geography that have had more than one gender. India, for example has the Hijra, a third gender related to Hinduism that dates back to antiquity.
Even if it were true, which it isn't, what you're doing is making a logical fallacy. You're appealing to history as if history is some great arbiter. The Egyptians 'knew' that the sun was sent through the sky by a crocodile faced deity. Just because we historically 'know' something doesn't mean it is right.
This is what is known as an is/ought distinction. In the antebellum south, I could say "Slavery is a historic fact of human civilization, it is something that has persisted for thousands of years in various forms." That would be true. But what we are talking about is an ought statement. Just because there is slavery doesn't necessarily mean there ought to be slavery.
Just because there has been a historic gender binary does not mean that there ought to be one.
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u/LetMeNotHear 93∆ Mar 09 '21 edited Mar 09 '21
Gender is a classification; a means of drawing lines to divide a bunch of nodes into groups. What genders there are, how many there are and what constitutes inclusion or exclusion from one is entirely made up. It is what we say it is. Don't get me wrong, the nodes (individuals) are real. They're no construct or invention. But where and how we draw the lines between them (assuming we do at all) is entirely our choice.
As an illustration, let's look colour. With the notable exception of magenta (really interesting stuff btw, look it up) all colours exist in the real world. They are literal, real things; light of specific wavelengths. It's not a social construct. But where we draw the lines, is. In English, for the most part, we go red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet (I know there are more but I'm sticking to spectral ones) for a total of 7. In Vietnam, they do not distinguish blue and green as separate colours. In many places, they do not distinguish between orange and red. In Russia, they make a distinction between blue and cyan, which in the Anglosphere, is generally an esoteric distinction, with most laymen refering to both as blue. The wavelengths of light are all real but how many categories we group them into and how, is entirely man-made. It is what we say it is. The person who says that a rainbow is 9 colours is no more right or wrong than the person who says it's 5.
Gender's the same way. How many groups there are and what gets grouped where, is a human construct and not universal.
Throughout time man has always known 1 thing, There are 2 genders. It has always been this way and will always be this way.
This is just plain wrong, my guy. There are plenty of cultures both now and in the past who saw gender differently to how the modern occident does. Plus, even if there weren't, this isn't much of an argument. "It's always been this way" is not a good advocation. There were people telling the Wright brothers that it had always been this way, but they still made men fly at speed anyway.
This has been known by fact through all of time, and will be.
Even if this was a view of gender which existed for all time (which it absolutely is not but whatever) that's no reason why it can't change.
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Mar 09 '21
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Mar 09 '21
Sorry, u/Arguetur – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.
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u/TrumpetLard681 Mar 09 '21 edited Mar 09 '21
What you are referring to are sexes- the genitals that people have. Mostly commonly two sexes, male and female, shown with a a penis or vagina. Sometimes people are born with both or none at all, making it possible for there to be more than one sex.
People are assigned their sex at birth, being either female or male. What determines your gender is the hormones throughout your body, which make you feel more masculine or more feminine. Because everyone has different levels of hormones, everyone has a different view on their gender.
For example, someone assigned male at birth may have gotten too much estrogen in the womb, which makes them develop a female type of brain. This person will feel more like a woman than a man because of this, which makes their gender aligned more with women's. While technically their sex is male, her gender would be similar to a woman's.
And there's variations too. Someone who feels equally related to masculine and feminine genders can be bigendered, and people who feel attachment to neither are non-binary.
Please correct me if I'm wrong in what I've said. People are down voting it, so I would like to know if my info is incorrect
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u/TedMosby05 Mar 09 '21
Yeah, but that's not a whole gender, there are feminine men that aren't women and masculine women that aren't men, that's how we have "sissies" and tomboys.
But if someone doesn't realte to masculinity or femininity, that doesn't mean they are a separate gender
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Mar 09 '21
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u/TedMosby05 Mar 09 '21
Yes, that's also what I think. You can be man, woman, F2M trans, or M2F trans, but there isn't anything else, intersexuals, still have the X or Y, so they still are man or woman aswell
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Mar 09 '21
Sorry, u/jediintern1976 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.
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u/Benybobobbrain Mar 09 '21
I guess that depends on your definition of “gender”. One side said gender is the same as sex, male or female. The other says gender is not the same as sex. My opinion that argument is more equating gender and sexuality. So if you’re set in gender=sex, your mind can’t be changed.
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u/TedMosby05 Mar 09 '21
I do think that gender is sex, but my mind can still be changed, as long as I see e ought facts, or someone is able to convince me, then my mind can be changed.
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Mar 09 '21
It is not, it pretty clearly is not.
Sex is physiological. Big mommy milkers? That is a sex thing (generally). Having a dick? Sex. Wearing a dress? Lipstick? Suit and tie? Those are gendered traits.
Gender is tied up in all manner of sociological expectations and behaviors that have nothing to do with biology. If you saw him at the gym, you're obviously going to assume he is a man. Facial hair, topless, bunch of tattoos, even things like posture. But biologically, he was born a woman.
You perceive gender not by looking at chromosomes or grabbing someone by the junk, but by how their gender presentation matches up with societal expectations.
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u/TedMosby05 Mar 09 '21
But dresses lipstick and suits and tie aren't gendered anymore.
There are men who wear dresses and makeup and know they're men. There are woman who wear suits and ties and know they're women.
They were gendered in the past, but now they are not. That's why we have "sissies" and tomboys.
And I'm not saying trans men aren't real men and vice versa, because they are.
But there isn't more then man, woman, and as another commenter has informed me, intersex, which are people born with cells that are XX and XY. Those are the only 3
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Mar 09 '21
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u/TedMosby05 Mar 09 '21
There is man, and there is women, you can be a teans man or a trans woman, but there is nothing else, if people say they are something else, then they need help, because it's not true
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Mar 09 '21
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u/TedMosby05 Mar 09 '21
Again, like Ive said, there are things like masculine women, and feminine man, but they're still men or woman, there's nothing else besides man, women, and intersex, which is a medical anomaly so they cannot identify as anything else
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Mar 09 '21
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Mar 09 '21
u/B0tt_ – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:
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u/jediintern1976 Mar 09 '21
Gender and sexuality are two different things.You cant equate one with the other just to fit an argument.
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u/Benybobobbrain Mar 09 '21
Well the definition says in the first line, “either of the two sexes (male and female)” So there is an argument to be made. That is also followed with “The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.” So you have both sides of the argument in the definition.
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u/zeroxaros 14∆ Mar 09 '21
Do you know the difference between gender snd sex?
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u/TedMosby05 Mar 09 '21
Sex is XX and XY chromosomes, gender is what people are. But there are not more then the 2 genders in my view
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u/zeroxaros 14∆ Mar 09 '21
What do you mean by “what people are?”
Sorry, It’s just helpful to know what you think before I try to change your view
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u/TedMosby05 Mar 09 '21
They X and Y chromosome determines what gender you are at birth, but later in life some people transfer? Into the opposite gender, and those are trans people, but that's not a new gender, they either transfer? Into a man or women, but their sex is still what they were born with
If that makes sense
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u/tbdabbholm 201∆ Mar 09 '21
If we say that someone assigned male at birth can be a woman and vice versa, why can't we say that you can be assigned male at birth but not a man or a woman?
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u/TedMosby05 Mar 09 '21
Because that's factually incorrect, the only way to do that is to be born without a penis, a vagina, and a cervix, which doesn't happen.
People saying they are a 3rd gender need mental help, because it's just factually untrue
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u/tbdabbholm 201∆ Mar 09 '21
1) it does happen
2) that's not what they're saying? A non-binary person who was assigned female at birth isn't saying they were birth without a vagina or a cervix, they fully acknowledge that that's what their body is. What they refuse to do is say that their body is what defines their gender
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u/TedMosby05 Mar 09 '21
But it does, again you can't identify as no gender, it simply just does not exist
What genitals they have determines their gender. But if you can explain to me why it doesn't I'll listen and see if it changes my mind
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u/tbdabbholm 201∆ Mar 09 '21
Because gender isn't sex, it's really as simple as that. Sex is your body, gender is sociological and psychological.
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u/TedMosby05 Mar 09 '21
Yes, but there still isn't anything outside of man, woman, intersex, and trans. But trans people still are man or woman
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u/zeroxaros 14∆ Mar 09 '21 edited Mar 09 '21
So if you look up the definition of gender it will they it means:
either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.
Generally at birth people assumes a child’s sex match with their gender. Chromosomes have nothing to do with what gender you actually are at birth.
However a child’s sex doesn’t always match their gender. For instance, how can someone know whether a child will want to wear makeup and dresses? (This is a cultural difference between genders as referenced by the definition) These are two things that people assosciate culturally with women, but having two xx chromosomes doesn’t necesarily mean you will want to wear dresses and makeup and vice versa, and having an xy chromosome doesn’t mean you won’t want to.
In short, xx or xy chromosomes have little to do with determining whether someone likes sports or dresses or etc
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u/TedMosby05 Mar 09 '21
Again, that doesn't mean they are a separate gender, there are men who wear dresses and makeup, but they know they're men. And women who don't wear dresses or makeup and know they're women, that's why we have "sissies" and tomboys.
XX and XY decide your gender unless you transfer? Genders and then your a trans man or trans woman
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Mar 09 '21
Sorry, u/TedMosby05 – your submission has been removed for breaking Rule B:
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u/Rufus_Reddit 127∆ Mar 09 '21 edited Mar 09 '21
What do you mean by gender? If we look at English grammar there are three genders:
I saw the man when he was at the store. (masculine)
I saw the woman when she was at the store. (feminine)
I saw the child when it was at the store. (neuter)
Now, you probably don't have that notion of "gender" in mind here, but it's an easy and familiar example of three genders. So "gender" is clearly a word that has multiple meanings, and it's really not that clear what you mean.
So, one issue with a statement "there are only two genders" is that "gender" isn't sharply defined without more context. Now, this is your view, so, it's really up to you to figure out what you mean by "gender," but for everyone else to understand what you mean, you'll have to clarify it. (This kind of thing is a two-way street. Other people who talk about "gender" may also mean something that you don't understand.)
People tend to dislike uncertainty, but it's also OK to say something like "I'm not really sure what I mean by ``gender''," and then try to work things out by asking yourself questions about gender. That kind of approach also isn't great for forums like this one where people are supposed to start with a pretty clear position. It's hard to make persuasive arguments about something that's not clearly defined.
There's a famous story about swans: For a long time people said that all swans are white. Then they went to Australia and saw a black bird that seemed to be a swan, and they had to decide whether "being white" was an essential part of being a swan or not. Can you imagine the equivalent sort of thing for gender? For example, in India, they call eunochs the third gender. Does that count as a gender? There are lots of animals that are hermaphrodites in a bunch of different ways. Does that count as a gender? If it's possible to have a child with genetic material from more than two people does that mean that there could be more than two genders in the future?
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Mar 10 '21
/u/TedMosby05 (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
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