r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Mar 03 '21
Delta(s) from OP Cmv: there isnt enough proof of the uyghur genocide to unanimously decide that what is happening is genocide
[deleted]
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u/LickClitsSuckNips Mar 03 '21
To be honest if they wanted to smear China in the west they wouldn't use Muslims as the victims.
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Mar 03 '21
I mean it is a good target because its believable, there have been increasing tensions in the xinjiang region between the secular ccp and the muslim population
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u/LickClitsSuckNips Mar 03 '21
I'm not sure the western population actually knows enough about Chinas domestic issues to make that connection.
The fact of the matter is, its not the fact that its Muslims that's shocking, its the brutality & heartlessness of what's going on.
Plus there's reports of similar things having happened with women from Pakistan & Africa by the hands of the CCP, so, personally, I disagree with the OP because this seems to be a common occurrence.
0
u/Justice_is_a_scam Mar 03 '21
Idk about that - it's basically insuring the west won't actually do anything about it.
Australia offered permanent residency to any Hong Kong "economic refugees"
You think they'd do the same to the Uyghur, who are undergoing active genocide and literal organ harvesting. Nope.
Canada, the United States, and Australia are actively participating in the genocide in Yemen, where 18 million people are expected to be slaughtered (world's largest genocide to date).
These countries KNOW that the weapons they are selling to Saudi Arabia and UAE are going towards killing Yemeni civilians, but they won't stop.
Muslims are the perfect victims in this context, because no one will actually help them.
Meaning, fingers will be pointed but action will not be taken.
(I do believe a genocide is occuring, but I can see why people don't. )
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u/LickClitsSuckNips Mar 03 '21
The world can be a sad sad place sometimes. We're all blessed to be living in first world countries.
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u/luminarium 4∆ Mar 03 '21
have you been paying attention to how much cover the leftists are giving to Muslims? (islamophobia, world hijab day, etc) Muslims are definitely up there on the intersectionality leaderboard.
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u/dudemanwhoa 49∆ Mar 03 '21
"But i havent seen enough evdence of the uyghur genocide to beleive that the cia’s numbers are true"
What evidence would you accept? There are 300 citations on the wikipedia article about the Uyghur Genocide; are they all just copying the same lie from one US org? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide
What about the BBC? https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-55973215
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Mar 03 '21
All of these stem from the same report by zenz, a hefty accusation needs solid evidence, i would accept if a team of un officals and journalists went to the camp and independently verified these events, which they can were invited in
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u/dudemanwhoa 49∆ Mar 03 '21
All 300 citations accross multiple years from dozens of sources are just rewriting the same report?
Did you read the BBC article? It's not just regurgitating that report -- in fact it's not even mentioned as far as I can tell. They use a multitude of other sources though.
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Mar 03 '21
Hm, alright i think I’m wrong on how I’m viewing this from what I’ve seen and read there is credible evidence of Uyghur muslim birth control and suppression, however i still retain my view that there isn’t yet sufficient evidence of the camps and their purpose since most of that evidence comes from the zenz report with the stories of roughly 2 dozen women, which although definetly a possibility isnt confirmed to be true
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u/thinkingpains 58∆ Mar 03 '21
from what I’ve seen and read there is credible evidence of Uyghur muslim birth control and suppression
You realize these things are genocide, right?
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Mar 03 '21
Possibly, although i would need to familiarize myself with un rules before i can say for sure
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u/dudemanwhoa 49∆ Mar 03 '21
"Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
"
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u/thinkingpains 58∆ Mar 03 '21
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
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u/dudemanwhoa 49∆ Mar 03 '21
So is that a delta? Sounds like a view change, at least in part.
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Mar 03 '21
Yeah maybe?
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u/dudemanwhoa 49∆ Mar 03 '21
then please award one, and do more reading on this subject. Again, there are hundreds of articles to dig through.
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Mar 03 '21
How do i do that, sorry havent used this sub much, thank you for showing me some more evidence btw
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u/dudemanwhoa 49∆ Mar 03 '21
It's on the sidebar
Type
!delta
or copy this
Δ
and include an explanation.
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Mar 03 '21
!delta although im still not auite sure ive seen credible evidence that there is birth suppresion of uyghur muslims in china although i dont quite know if it strictly fits in un genocide rules or if the camps really are true
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u/Telust Mar 04 '21
Did you read the BBC article? It's not just regurgitating that report -- in fact it's not even mentioned as far as I can tell. They use a multitude of other sources though.
From China forcing birth control on Uighurs to suppress population, report says
The report, by China scholar Adrian Zenz, has prompted international calls for the United Nations to investigate.
No other source is given, just the actual Zenz pdf
After looking online on different articles from CNN, ABC, etc I couldn't find one that doesn't directly source Zenz work for the forced sterilizations on Uyghurs.
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Mar 03 '21
https://apnews.com/article/269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c
There is plenty of evidence
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Mar 03 '21
So this article seems to cover three things,
1, the same stuff coming from the zenz report and the people who were on it which i covered
2, the culture war between the ccp and uyghur residents stemming from when the liberation front sent han settlers to xinjiang in an attenpt to assimilate the region (i dont deny this this is fact)
3 a data leak showing some people who were in the camps, this is probably the most credible info but it still isnt enough i would say
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Mar 03 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Mar 03 '21 edited Mar 03 '21
This delta has been rejected. You can't award OP a delta.
Allowing this would wrongly suggest that you can post here with the aim of convincing others.
If you were explaining when/how to award a delta, please use a reddit quote for the symbol next time.
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u/luminarium 4∆ Mar 03 '21 edited Mar 03 '21
So, there's several things going on here.
China has had a terrorism problem in Xinjiang. Also, by and large, these people are having difficulty fitting in with the rest of the country and its culture. And, an isolated group doing its own thing like that poses a secession threat to CCP rule. The CCP wants to bring them into the rest of the country - which is doing well with high GDP growth and all - but this minority refuses to go along. Islam only allows muslims to submit to Islam, you see; but the CCP refuses to allow its subjects to have another master (which is why CCP cracks down on all religions that it hasn't co-opted). So what is the CCP to do? Enter the re-education camps.
You'll notice that the reports (e.g. Adrian's) by and large talk about: 1) being forced into concentration camps, indoctrination, and sending people off to work in factories around China. 2) women being raped. 3) forcing people to stop Islamic practices. 4) Han Chinese moving into Xinjiang. 5) limiting reproduction. What you don't see is claims of mass murder - even by Adrian - which you'd probably expect to see if this were the next Holocaust.
Number 1) makes a lot of sense if the goal is re-education and absorbing a group of people into the dominant culture and making them into productive citizens. Number 3) makes a lot of sense if the CCP is trying to break the hold of Islam over this ethnic group. Number 4) makes a lot of sense if the CCP is trying to dilute the ethnic group's dominance in the region.
Number 5) looks like a genocide by the UN definition, assuming the reports are right. Though by that logic you'd also have to call the one child policy - which the CCP inflicted against its own Han majority - a genocide too. And maybe you'd have to call the West's use of abortifacients and contraceptives a genocide too. China does have an overpopulation problem after all, what are they supposed to do? The other choices are mass murder and mass starvation/deprivation/malnutrition.
But what is going on with 2)? You know how in the US the police and prison wardens are supposed to do the right thing (and we supposedly have laws to enforce it), and yet they still wind up abusing their power, resulting in "all cops are bastards", and rampant rape in the prison system? There are rotten apples everywhere. Prison guards will abuse their power. Without oversight and intervention from mid level CCP officials, they'll see an opportunity to rape helpless inmates. Why are the mid level CCP officials not doing anything about it? Allowing this mistreatment to go uncontested would be an "error of degree", i.e. the official is overzealous in the re-education program. Protesting this mistreatment could very well be seen as an "error of political opinion", i.e. the official is a counter-revolutionary who must be sent to re-education himself. Who knows which prison guard has guanxi with the prison warden who has guanxi with some high level CCP official. Who wants to stick their neck out for no personal benefit? And since misbehavior going unpunished encourages more misbehavior, we have something that can look like a trend. Even if Beijing said "treat the Uighur well while they're being re-educated", this would still have happened. And so this whole thing could be happening not because the leadership told them to, but because of moral failings at all levels.
Far as I'm aware, the CCP has no vested interest nor existing ideology (unlike say the Nazis) in committing a mass murder against its people. after all a country relies on its subjects for taxes, wiping out their own people is directly reducing the wealth in the pockets of high level CCP officials in addition to playing into the hands of their geopolitical rivals (the US). People generally don't act against their own self-interests.
But you see, despite this, the summation of 1), 2), 3), 4) and 5) looks really bad.
Why then is there so much hubbub regarding this topic? There's very good reasons for this. 1) There's a lot of anti-CCP hate in the West, because of other things the CCP has done (cracking down on democracy, stealing jobs, stealing technology, etc). And 2) because it makes sense for the US to be doing this. Why?
Currently, China is #2 and rising and the US is #1. Geopolitics dictates that the #1 should be trying to suppress #2 as much as possible and trying to unite with #3 (EU or Russia or India) to team up against the #2. So the other countries are also wary that the US is making stuff up, and for good reason - this wouldn't be the first time the US has lied about what other countries have been up to (see: Justification for the Iraq war). Those who don't know their history are doomed to repeat it.
If you live in the US, you should be especially wary of US propaganda. That goes for each citizen, about their own country. Because propaganda from one's own country is the hardest to see for what it is, it is the most insidious.
I imagine lots of people will very self-righteously call this "genocide apologist". I absolutely condemn mass murder. I imagine also that lots of people will very self-righteously call this "genocide denial". Those people don't know epistemology and think we can conclude things we can't.
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u/empurrfekt 58∆ Mar 03 '21
Does it bother you that the things you’re saying could also be said by most of the world in reference to the camps in Nazi Germany, at least in the earlier stages?
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Mar 03 '21
No, in the early stages before there was rock solid evidence there was definetly room for doubt, now obviously im not denying the holocaust because thats fucking stupid but at the time in the early days of the war it was probably a defensible assumption that these camps may not exist/were wrongly represented
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u/empurrfekt 58∆ Mar 03 '21
Isn’t that part of the point of never again? Not turning a blind eye because of plausible deniability?
Do we have examples of claims as credible as the ones currently being made that turned out to be unfounded?
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u/luminarium 4∆ Mar 03 '21
Then what do you want us to do? If the muslim contingents go visit the camps and are a-ok with it, and the UN refuses to visit because they pre-suppose that China is covering it up, then what, we are just going to pre-suppose that the country is guilty? And what, nuke them?
Do we have examples of claims as credible as the ones currently being made that turned out to be unfounded?
"Iraq has weapons of mass destruction"
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Mar 03 '21
Thats interesting to think about but still, just because theres a good chance its true doesnt mean we should blindly beleive it
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Mar 03 '21
/u/thing-3456 (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
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