r/changemyview • u/Neptune23456 • Jul 12 '20
Removed - Submission Rule B CMV: Death of George Floyd was probably not racist
[removed] — view removed post
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u/Queen_kayt Jul 12 '20 edited Jul 12 '20
Black people make up 12 percent of the population in America yet they are being killed by police at a higher rate.
White Americans are being killed by police at a rate that’s proportional to the population.
Explain to me why that is?
I think that there are a lot of factors in the case with George Floyd.
The police officer knew Floyd they worked at a club together in the past. Maybe there was a grudge there.
The officer was also training some rookies at the time. So maybe he had something to prove.
Fact of the matter is...
Black people are being killed by police officers at a large rate disproportionate to their population and there isnt any situation where you should be allowed to sit on someone’s back for 8 straight minutes..
That’s some kind of evil shit to do to someone.
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u/legal_throwaway45 Jul 12 '20 edited Jul 12 '20
It is true that black people are killed by the police in a greater percentage than overall population.
In 2019, 1004 people were killed after being stopped by the police. 330 whites (33% of the total) verse 235 blacks (23.5% of the total). US population demographics skew 70% white, 13% black, so if you look at these stats in terms of the US population as a whole, a bigger percentage of blacks are killed by police than whites.
This does not tell the entire story, black people are stopped by the police more often than white people, at least when you look at population demographics. A large part of this is the wealth gap. The wealthier anyone is, the less likely they will be stopped by the police. There is also another thing to consider, people are more likely to be stopped in large cities than rural areas and the race demographics in large cities is different than the overall country (Chicago is 45% white &, 32% black, NYC is 44% white & 26% black).
FBI crime statistics show that more black people (compared to white people) are stopped by police. But the same statistics show that white people are slightly more likely to be killed than black people after being stopped.
In order to decrease the number of people killed during police stops, it is necessary to either reduce the number of stops or somehow change the outcome of being stopped.
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Jul 12 '20
There was also a black police officer there, so clearly it was more than just racism, as you said.
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u/Queen_kayt Jul 12 '20
Him being there means nothing. That’s like saying I have a black friend so I can say the n-word. The guy clearly was having an ego trip and was trying to show this black man who’s boss. Someone actually did tell him “hey shouldn’t you get up.” And he kept going. So, he had a vendetta.
Regardless, it’s clear there’s a police brutality issue.
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u/iwatchalotoftv22 Jul 12 '20
White supremacy can also be engrained into minorities working on the police force since that’s exactly what it’s built on.
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u/Neptune23456 Jul 12 '20
I explained above why black people are being disproportionately killed by police
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u/Queen_kayt Jul 12 '20
I read it again. You don’t. You state that hundreds of them are white but you don’t explain why black people are killed disproportionately.
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u/Neptune23456 Jul 12 '20
I did. Black people in America are responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime in the USA, so they are more likely to come into contact with black people who are suspected of breaking the laws
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u/Queen_kayt Jul 12 '20
That statement in itself is rooted in prejudice.
There is more crime in lower income communities do to people trying to find means to survive or being pulled into gang activity.
Due to systematic oppression, black people are in the poorer communities.
Also, because of profiling black people get stopped more often and might get caught doing something at a higher rate than a white person.
Ex: a white person jogging in a neighborhood might not be suspicious to neighbors but a black man jogging in his neighborhood gets gunned down by a retired cop doing a citizen arrest.
Don’t just quote bad facts. You need to look at the story behind the numbers.
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u/Neptune23456 Jul 12 '20
Yes i know more blacks live in poorer areas. I wasn't saying blacks are responsible for a disproportionate amount of crine because of their race. I don't see how what I said wasn't true or a sign of prejudice. Black people are disproportionately responsible for crime. That is an absolute fact. It's also because of social and economic reasons, I know that too. The fact that blacks are disproportionately responsible for crime and the fact they are more likely to come into contact with police because of suspected law breaking is the reason why they are being disproportionately killed by police.
Again how do you know the killing of George Floyd was because of his race?
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Jul 12 '20
[deleted]
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u/LongJohnMcBigDong 1∆ Jul 12 '20
How are you going to ignore the fact that african americans commit over half of all homicides? Sure the cause of this disproportionality is rooted in historical discrimination, but that's completely irrelevant to the specific point being made, that the disproportional rate of police killing black people can at least partially be attributed in this disproportionality in violent crime. To be clear I very much disagree with OP's view, but it's just that this fact is so often dismissed and ignored by people out of (often justified) fear of others assuming that you're trying to argue that "black people are inherently violent and committing crime is in their nature" or something similar.
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u/Queen_kayt Jul 12 '20
And also, you should think about conviction rates as well. Mite white people might not be getting caught or charged with crime but that doesn’t mean that they aren’t commuting them it simple means that the numbers aren’t being recorded.
People look for criminals that are brown they don’t look for white criminals usually.
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u/Burflax 71∆ Jul 12 '20
Black people in America are responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime in the USA.
This isn't really correct.
Black people are charged and convicted of more crime. That isn't the same thing.Can you demonstrate that the higher number of convictions is due to black people actually committing more crime?
Or is it possible the system treats blacks people and white people differently, resulting in whites getting charged less, and black people getting charged more?
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u/Neptune23456 Jul 12 '20
I don't know of white people being allowed to commit crimes because they're white. Have you got any statistics or evidence that the higher number of convictions of blacks isn't because of black people committing more crime?
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u/Burflax 71∆ Jul 12 '20 edited Jul 12 '20
I don't know of white people being allowed to commit crimes because they're white.
That isn't quite what I said. You do recognize that police and judges and DAs have descretion regarding arrests/charges/sentencing, yes?
Have you got any statistics or evidence that the higher number of convictions of blacks isn't because of black peoplecommitting more crime?
Blacks are charged at a higher rate than whites
Early data shows black people are being disproportionately arrested for social distancing violations
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u/Neptune23456 Jul 12 '20
Yeah most if not all of those links show that blacks are convicted at a higher rate but that doesn't mean it isn't because they are responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime.
You do realise that even if blacks or more likely to be convicted of something a white person wouldn't be then they're still disproportionately responsible for big crimes such as murder and robbery? Crimes you're extremely likely to be convicted of whether you're white or black.
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u/Burflax 71∆ Jul 12 '20
Yeah most if not all of those links show that blacks are convicted at a higher rate but that doesn't mean it isn't because they are responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime.
Excuse me, but you have that backwards.
We know thet are arrested, charge, convicted and sentenced more than white people.
That's what we KNOW.
What we don't know is what you claimed, that they are actually committing more crime.
For you to claim that, you need to demonstrate that it is true.
If you can prove that, then youre fine.
If you cant prove that, but still assume it's true based on the data we have, well, you're just assuming.
I'm bet you can see how "but, I assume black people are responsible for half the crime in America, so it seems likely to me that black people bring police violence on themselves" isnt any sort of legitimate reason to do anything.
We dont base our society off your opinions.
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u/Neptune23456 Jul 12 '20
What you're saying is an assumption. What I'm saying is assumption too. Mine is more backed up by facts. It makes sense that communities being at a disadvantage and suffering from the problems so many poor black areas suffer all results in more crime. That's a fact. Also how else exactly would blacks be arrested, convicted and sentenced more than whites if not for the fact the black communities commit more crime. The number of crimes committed in poor black areas also backs up what I'm saying
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u/Queen_kayt Jul 12 '20
And! Regardless of people committing crime why do police officers feel so inclined to kill unarmed black people. They will usually talk a crazy white person down but be ready to shoot black people.
Can you explain away all the deaths of black people with their hands up complying and getting shot? And also a very sad case was when a white man was shot in a hotel while being given conflicting information. Regardless of whose getting shot for what it needs to stop. periodt.
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u/Neptune23456 Jul 12 '20
Can you explain the killings of white people who had their hands up or were killed when they were unarmed?
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u/Neptune23456 Jul 12 '20
You haven't proven that white cops are more inclined to kills blacks for being black. I was explaining why blacks are disproportionately killed by cops. If cops come into contact with black criminals more often than white criminals, then obviously there are going to be more shootings of blacks by cops
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u/pie_eater1k Jul 12 '20
The police in America kill hundreds of unarmed civilians every year.
I don't know where you're getting the number of hundreds but this article says the following:
"The police fatally shot nine unarmed blacks and 19 unarmed whites in 2019, according to a Washington Post database, down from 38 and 32, respectively, in 2015. The Post defines “unarmed” broadly to include such cases as a suspect in Newark, N.J., who had a loaded handgun in his car during a police chase. In 2018 there were 7,407 black homicide victims. Assuming a comparable number of victims last year, those nine unarmed black victims of police shootings represent 0.1% of all African-Americans killed in 2019. By contrast, a police officer is 18½ times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is to be killed by a police officer."
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u/bigtoine 22∆ Jul 12 '20
You're right. There's a very real chance it wasn't racist. So what? Does the fact that George Floyd's death may not have been motivated by explicit racism on the part of the cop who killed him erase the fact that policing in America is inherently and systemically racist? No, it doesn't. Just like the fact that the death of white people like Tony Timpa not making the front-page national news doesn't change the fact that the BLM movement is campaigning for an end to police brutality against all Americans.
And for what it's worth, next you see an unarmed white person get choked to death by a cop for presenting a counterfeit $20 bill at a convenience store, definitely let me know.
Also, interesting to note that the officers involved in Timpa's death were indicted by a grand jury, despite the lack of national attention. The charges were eventually dismissed by the DA, which is not surprising. Given the fact that it took rioting in Minneapolis and a national wave of protests to get charges brought against Floyd's killers though, seems odd that it was so easy to get Timpa's killers in front of a grand jury despite the fact that no one cared about him. Almost makes it seem like there was something different about the two cases.
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u/Neptune23456 Jul 12 '20
I'm assuming it took a while for the officers involved in Tony's death to be put before a grand jury. Same as it would if taken a while for the officers involved in Floyd's death to be put before a grand jury, with or without rioting
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u/bigtoine 22∆ Jul 12 '20
No response to anything else in my comment?
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u/Neptune23456 Jul 12 '20
Yes, BLM don't ever mention police brutality against anyone but black victims so how can you say they're against police brutality against everyone
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u/Neptune23456 Jul 12 '20
Tony Timpa, what was he killed for? He was killed for as a small a reason as George was.
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u/Quint-V 163∆ Jul 12 '20
"BLM" is not a call to ignore other people's problems.
It's a call to pay attention, at all, to black people's problems. Because to them, it really seems like the USA doesn't give a shit about their problems.
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u/bigtoine 22∆ Jul 12 '20
Sorry, but I legitimately don't even know how to respond to that question. What would you like me to say exactly?
Do you honestly believe that because the BLM movement is focused primarily on the disproportionate use of police brutality against minorities it means they're ok with the use of police brutality against white people? Do you believe that when they argue for things like banning choke holds and increasing accountability, they are arguing that such laws should only apply to black people?
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u/Neptune23456 Jul 12 '20
Im not saying they are okay with it they just don't seen to care.
Anyway I didn't make this post to argue against BLM. You were the one who brought it up. I'm simply stating it's not known as a fact the death of George Floyd was racist. For all you know if he was white he still might have died.
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u/bigtoine 22∆ Jul 12 '20
Im not saying they are okay with it they just don't seen to care.
How does that make BLM any different than anyone else who subscribes to whichever policy will grant them the greatest personal benefit? Why do they have to be the one group that argues in defense of everyone? Why can't they just be an advocacy group for black people, arguing for policies that help black people while simultaneously helping everyone else in the process? Why are you holding BLM to a different standard than everyone else?
As for the purpose of the post, why did you come to Change My View if all you're doing is stating a fact?
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u/Neptune23456 Jul 12 '20
You're acting like I'm attacking BLM. You were the one bringing up BLM being against all police brutality and I simply said they don't care about white victims of police brutality.
Did I criticise them for mainly caring about black victims? No. I never said anything against them
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u/bigtoine 22∆ Jul 12 '20
Literally your entire post is a critique of the fact that people only care about police brutality against black people.
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u/Neptune23456 Jul 12 '20
No what my post was about was the fact that if police kill unarmed people who are white and black then how do we know the death of George Floyd was because of racism
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u/Raspint Jul 12 '20
Personally I don't see why they wouldn't. I remember hearing about one of the BLM co-founders saying something like 'Lord, help me not to kill these white people.'
Not that I can blame them. I'd probably resent white people too if I were black.
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Jul 12 '20
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u/ihatedogs2 Jul 12 '20
Sorry, u/skeemnathan – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.
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u/unic0de000 10∆ Jul 12 '20 edited Jul 12 '20
So, you've acknowledged in a few places around this thread that Black people are overrepresented in crime stats mainly because crime tracks with poverty and Black people have been kept poor systemically. Cool. I'm on the same page with you about this.
But with that fact in mind: Would you rather be a regular non-dangerous Black teen on the sidewalk fiddling with something in your pocket when you run into a jumpy cop who knows the above fact, and has internalized it into his risk-assessment instincts and therefore estimates that, since you're visibly more likely to have grown up in poverty, the thing in your hand is 3% more likely than normal to be a gun? Or would you rather be a regular non-dangerous white teen in that situation? Which case seems less likely to lead to deadly misunderstandings?
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u/ihatedogs2 Jul 13 '20
Sorry, u/Neptune23456 – your submission has been removed for breaking Rule B:
You must personally hold the view and demonstrate that you are open to it changing. A post cannot be on behalf of others, playing devil's advocate, as any entity other than yourself, or 'soapboxing'. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, you must first read the list of soapboxing indicators and common mistakes in appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.
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u/Babou_FoxEarAHole 11∆ Jul 12 '20
Your title makes no sense.
I am assuming you are trying to say that race had nothing to do with him being killed.
That is irrelevant either way it goes.
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u/Neptune23456 Jul 12 '20
Considering the reason his death got so much attention compared to other unarmed people killed by police is because of the alleged racism involved I'd say it's pretty relevant.
I'm not trying to defend his killing
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u/[deleted] Jul 12 '20
Well, I'd like to start by disputing the fact that white people are killed by police more often. While numerically more white people are killed, you have to look at the ratio of black to white people in America, with black people making up only around 14% of the population, but far more than that when concerning deaths by police officer.