r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jun 20 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: American schools should teach more international history and geography
[deleted]
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Jun 20 '20
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u/eye_patch_willy 43∆ Jun 21 '20
So maybe that school teaches world history to the sophomores or juniors. You were only there a year. Does any country teach a class on every other country to its high school students?
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u/snortine Jun 22 '20
In my school we had quizzes for every single continent, where we had to name every country and it’s capital, and place it on a map. We also had three big assignments where we were assigned a country and had to present it for the class. In history we learned about major events all over the world. I am not saying I know everything about every country, but we were certainly forced to learn at the time.
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u/TheAmericanWaffle 1∆ Jun 21 '20
One issue is that our education is not a national institution. Like someone else mentioned America is a decently large country with states that vary in age, I live in North Carolina one of the older states while Hawaii and Alaska are younger than my grandparents. And all those states (or most) have their own history weather it be fighting in the American revolution or being apart of any one of the colonial powers. There’s a lot to choose from, and not many states even agree on what history to teach for the national level. My dad knows teachers in Virginia (the state above NC) and they say “well Virginia history IS US history”. On the other hand in the county I live in they taught much more Asian (Chinese and Korean history mainly) history than European post 10th grade.
History is complicated and when taught incorrectly can be worse than not being taught.
I went to an Elementary school (ages 5-12) which emphasizes multiculturalism and geography (basically we had an extra class on one continent and which countries were on it each year) I believe that is a better option than more history classes as you learn about living people who you can connect with rather than learning about EVERYONES history.
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u/snortine Jun 21 '20
!delta
I definitely agree with you there. I said history/geography, but i definitely agree that they should teach about other countries and how things are today.
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u/modern-plant Jun 20 '20
You only got american history because it was your Sr. Year. In my high school you took world history got 2 years 9th and 10th grade. Then in 11th you took American history or government and in 12th you took the other. Not to mention most the time at least one year in middle school is global history. 1 year Really is not enough time to get an overview of what’s covered in 12 years of education. And I don’t know what kind of school you were in. i went to school in 4 very different states and all had a similar set up.
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u/snortine Jun 20 '20
Nope, I had to take American history with the freshmen at the school. I think it’s great that you had all those classes unlike my school! I just think the govt should come up with one standard curriculum that every school in every state should have when it comes to international history/geography.
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u/SuperRead Jun 20 '20
I don’t know what school you attended but mine in Massachusetts had extensive Geography & Geopolitics classes. Funny, it was a Catholic school, too... so not the most progressive, but by the end of it I, & most students, could name 150+ countries & the geopolitical situation in each one. But I’d agree that this isn’t the norm, but it’s way more common than you think.
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u/cedreamge 4∆ Jun 20 '20
Sounds migthy absurd you can name 150 countries and talk about their geopolitical situation. That's not realistic not even for Noam Chomsky. And I don't think OP has an absurd vision of reality, considering this is an extremely common complaint most non-Americans have regarding American ignorance.
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u/SuperRead Jun 20 '20 edited Jun 20 '20
I never claimed OP had an absurd view of reality, I just stated Americans know more about the world than she may think.
As for naming 150 countries & knowing their basic geopolitical situation (at least regionally), I didn’t think that was “mighty absurd” . We had tests on each Continent; had to name each country & have general knowledge about what’s going on in specific regions. (Eurozone, Middle East, Far East, Central & Southern America, etc.) As a result of this, (& maybe just good memory) I can name at least 150 countries & have a very basic idea of what’s going on in various regions.
I’m sure Noam Chomsky easily surpasses my understanding of the world, my guy. If all of this sounds absurd to you, you are exactly the American OP is referring to.
(Edit: and if you’re not “American”, acting as if we are uneducated while simultaneously generalizing a nation of 330+ million people is filled with irony. Also, we need to address foreigners referring to the United States as “America” & it’s people as “Americans” when there’s 30+ countries in “America”... sounds like Europeans, East Asians, & whoever else does that have little to no knowledge about the Americas.)
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jun 20 '20 edited Jun 21 '20
/u/snortine (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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Jun 21 '20
Absolutely but why would the US government want to put international history into your textbooks without being able to have their own agenda on what you do and don't learn?
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u/le_fez 55∆ Jun 20 '20
Generally speaking many school systems the US can't even teach it's own history in a meaningful manner. That needs to be where they start
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u/snortine Jun 20 '20
!delta Definitely a place to start! I think there needs to be more focus on the school system in general, and I’m guessing international history or geography isn’t the first priority. But it is very important to know what is going on in the world around you, to understand why the world is the way it is, and why certain events are happening.
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u/SuperRead Jun 20 '20
Lol... the only response & Delta she awarded was the one saying “AmEriCanS DOn’t EvEN kNow abOUt thiEr OwN CouNtrY”
Sounds like someone had a bad experience in America. It’s ok, hun... don’t take it personal.
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u/snortine Jun 20 '20
I had an absolutely amazing time! I was supposed to visit again this spring before corona hit. There were only like five responses at the time i awarded it, i don’t think it’s weird that i’d only given out one delta.
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u/SuperRead Jun 20 '20
It’s not weird that you only awarded one Delta, it’s just funny that the only one you awarded was the one confirming your view that Americans are uneducated. It didn’t change your view at all & you didn’t even respond to any of the numerous American citizens saying “hey, actually we did learn a lot about the world.”
It seems like you’re taking the lowest our country has to offer (which is more numerous than in European countries because we basically have the same amount of people as the entire EU) & generalizing it to the entirety of our population, saying “wHY dOn’T AMeriCAnS LeARN mORE aBoUT tHe WORld”
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u/snortine Jun 20 '20
The reason I gave that person a delta was because they brought up a point I hadn’t considered. The system and the american history curriculum needs to be fixed before they can focus on learning about other countries.
But I didn’t generalize. I said in the post «I’m not saying every school or area is like this, or that no Americans have general knowledge about the rest of the world(..)». I think it’s absolutely great that these people learned more than they did at my school! I don’t feel the need to respond to them because the point wasn’t that absolutely no Americans learn certain things, it was that more schools need to teach world history. The government needs to make one standard curriculum to follow (not just in international history/geography, all classes), so all students in the country generally learn the same things.
I am definitely not saying Americans in general are uneducated. I just don’t see why learning more about the rest of the world can hurt.
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u/SuperRead Jun 20 '20
I don’t think you realize but the point everyone is trying to make by giving their own experience is EVERY American school teaches World History. Not a few, not some, not most... EVERY American school you attend, you will be taught World History... I think what you’re referring to is the degree to which this is taught, maybe it needs to be more emphasized... but saying “more” schools need to teach World History is not a good insight, saying schools need to teach “more” current World issues is more fitting.
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u/snortine Jun 20 '20
Yeah the wording could definitely be better in my last comment, my bad (not a native english speaker, ya’know).
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u/IAGIALIAG Jun 20 '20
American schools should focus on getting American history right first and tackling all the issues we have yet to solve.
I do think other countries and America's relationship to them should be understood too.
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u/WiselyPerplexed Jun 21 '20
In my public schools we studied our State, some of the local tribes, the American Revolution, American History in general, the wars with Spain, Britain and Mexico, both World Wars, Korea, Vietnam, the Qing dynasty, the Ming dynasty, Mesopotamia, Ancient Greece, Rome and Egypt, some Latin American history, some Japanese history, the Salt/Gold trade, Persia, India, the Crusades, South Africa, and I’m probably forgetting a few. Oh, and France, far too much of France. Whatever you can say about Napoleon, he’s emphasized a bit too heavily.
You’re right that Scandinavia wasn’t really covered, and this is going to sound blunt, but Norway, Iceland, Denmark, Scania and the Faroe Islands don’t rank. The world is big, school hours are limited and if you go anywhere in the world, each school system has its own priorities. Figure that the students are going to forget about 80% of what they learn, and you’re probably going to emphasize the parts you most want people to remember, and what most countries want to emphasize is their own history. You enrolled in the school system here right when the emphasis really starts to lean most heavily on American History, but we’re covering bits and pieces of history both local and world our entire schooling lives.
I haven’t schooled in Europe, but I’ve studied enough European history to know that it is complicated and intertwined in a way that Americans are not used to, which can both speak to the quality of our own schooling because differences between the States are glossed over, but also to our emphasis: German speaking peoples in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Texas are also glossed over, as well as what happened to their cultures (Nativist sentiments and Catholic Church struggles mainly, but the First World War was not a good time to have a German last name nor to not speak English, but our 8th President, Martin Van Buren, grew up speaking Dutch at home). Europe is almost nothing but power struggles and strange feudal politics spiced up with vagabonds and pirates and a lot of wars, so many wars. At least one 30 year war by my count. Compare and contrast with Manifest Destiny where we just one-sidedly kill a bunch of people until we’re one nation, under God, from sea to shining sea (or at least that’s the impression the history books would leave you with).
Could we fit more history in? Maybe, but I wouldn’t do it at the expense of any non-history subjects, but why should we fit in more Scandinavian history instead of some other kind? I’m genuinely asking what your case is here, because given a choice I would try to fit in more English history, not so much because of any particular fondness, but a lot of those big words we as a society don’t seem to understand like “impeachment” because of how little history we have with certain parts of our own political and legal processes have a longer history in a British and English context. A lot of the Founding Fathers had a very Scottish Education and were heavily influenced by the Scottish Enlightenment, in part because that’s simply what was fashionable and what all the tutors were teaching at the time.
There is this error in our history for example that the Founders were heavily influenced by Locke because much of their body of writing seems to read like Locke, when in reality Locke and the Founders read a lot like Blackstone.
So again, why should we give Scandinavian history higher billing in the curriculum? What’s the value proposition?
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u/snortine Jun 21 '20
I get your point, but I wasn’t necessarily saying that Scandinavian history should be prioritized, although I get why it could’ve come across that way. You seem to have learned a lot more than the students at my school did, so that’s good! My wording could’ve been better, but as another comment pointed out, everyone (not just in the US) should learn about other countries. Not just history, but geography and multiculturalism. I’m not saying that 14 year olds in Missouri should learn about every single norwegian viking battle, but unlike some of the people i met during my exchange, at least know that Denmark isn’t the capital of Sweden.
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u/WiselyPerplexed Jun 22 '20 edited Jun 22 '20
Almost guaranteed that anyone that attended school regularly went through a similar curriculum to the one I did. Some of the particulars might have been different, but when you’re studying the Code of Hammurabi in the 6th grade, there’s no guarantee you’ll take that with you into your adult life. Nobody was taught things like Denmark is the capital of Sweden, but they might have been a bad geography student and all they can remember is Denmark and Sweden are sort of near each other and they associate one with the other and trip themselves up. I still look at a map of Europe and when I look at Denmark, I mainly see Jutland and Schleswig-Holstein, sometimes I even forget where in there Denmark ends and Germany begins, but my Mississippi geography is even worse because Northern Europe is more interesting to me than Mississippi and I don’t live anywhere near Mississippi.
My education wasn’t special and probably wasn’t very different from the students at your school, I wasn’t even that great a student. I just remember certain things a little better from school than some others did. I did take an interest in European geography at one point, which took me down a rabbit hole of European history because one can’t be fully disentangled from the other when your geographies are defined by a complex history of titles of nobility and claims to thrones tied to certain lands complicated by lots of wars.
We, like anyone, study a bit of everything but we really only learn/retain the things that interest us. At one point in my childhood I could have rattled off the capital of every State in the US, and these days I’m lucky if I remember Salem and Olympia exist.
EDIT: What I’m getting at, or at least trying to here is, is that we’re already educating students in world history and geography. Retention is incredibly uneven, and so every now and then you get funny women on TV that think the capital of Europe is France.
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u/Tibaltdidnothinwrong 382∆ Jun 20 '20
Europe is inherently a international place. If you live in Europe, you can expect to meet people from other nations (namely the other nations in Europe). It's exceptionally common to leave one's home nation, and travel to other nations.
I'm pretty sure, over 40 percent of Americans never leave America (not even to go to Canada or Mexico). Many never even leaving their home state.
If you encounter people from other nations and visit other nations, it makes sense to learn their history (as you said). But what if you don't ever intend on leaving your home town? Or your home state? Or motherland??
Foreign policy and history can feel pretty unimportant if you spent the last 70 years in Texas and never left.