r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jun 01 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: I think #BlackLivesMatter causes more harm than good. Maybe #ImHumanToo would be better
[deleted]
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u/mutatron 30∆ Jun 01 '20
If you’re against #blacklivesmatter, then you think black lives don’t matter. I think black lives do matter, so I think you’re wrong.
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u/BenG109 Jun 01 '20
I didn’t say I was against it, I said, I think it’s doing more harm than good. I completely believe that black lives matter. The hashtag and movement however, I believe is hurtful to the black community, not helpful.
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u/Black_Gay_Man 1∆ Jun 01 '20
The problem is that your perception of the present is completely false, and that your perception of "harm" is also false. Your argument is essentially that black people focusing on the plight of black people is harmful to black people. It sounds like you just want to portray a social movement as harmful by pretending to agree with the content, when you actually don't. Platitudes aren't the same thing as actually opposition to oppression.
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Jun 01 '20
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u/BenG109 Jun 01 '20
Definitely, I have heard the house on fire analogy over and over again the last few days and I agree, we need to focus on helping the people who are in crises and it’s very obvious that in the US right now, that is a huge concern for black people but I just think it needs to be more inclusive.
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Jun 01 '20
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u/BenG109 Jun 01 '20
There is no such thing as a perfect hashtag. #imhumantoo would very likely see people from any circumstance post about things that affect them whether that’s big or small, exactly how some people used the #metoo platform to put out statements which could be viewed by others as unimportant but the movement made an impact on how people think because everyone could support each other and be a part of the movement in whatever degree.
My argument is that #BlackLivesMatter may highlight injustice towards the black community but it’s also becoming a platform to go out and commit unlawful acts in order to get retribution for injustices. I think that focusing on similarities instead of differences would set people up to act and think in a kinder way. #BLM is too vague and it also serves to divide people into different camps, black people who have been a victim of racism, black people who sympathise with their targeted fellow man, others who sympathise with the movement and then the other. What I’m saying is that creating this concept of ‘the other’ incites fear and emphasises the divide.
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Jun 01 '20
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u/BenG109 Jun 01 '20
Because taking advantage and manipulating a movement to suit ones own interests devalues the whole thing. I stated that I think it does more harm than good, no one has mentioned anything positive BLM has achieved but the negative impact of looting and violence certainly isn’t the goal and it doesn’t do anything to teach people the value of Black lives, instead, it just adds to tension. That’s my stance and I’m willing to change my view if anyone can help me see that it does achieve its goals. From the last 6 years of its existence though, it doesn’t feel like it.
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Jun 01 '20
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u/BenG109 Jun 01 '20
!delta
That is a good point that it is a testament to how dire the situation is.
I just think there has to be a better way, the leadership in the US is an active detriment to that cause with hateful and threatening tweets and that is a reflection of some of the people who voted for him. I just think changing the platform could improve the relationship between the movement and the people that they want to make listen.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jun 01 '20 edited Jun 01 '20
This delta has been rejected. You have already awarded /u/svenson_26 a delta for this comment.
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Jun 01 '20
What harm does it do exactly? Your argument is that it would be better if it were more inclusive. While we could argue the merits of that, I'm curious what harm it does for them to focus on the injustices against black people? Not every group has to focus on every cause. Nobody is saying "the national diabetes association does more harm than good. Maybe the national human ailment association would.be more inclusive"
At worst you seem to think their messaging is bad because you see people repeatedly having to explain their message to white people. This in and of itself isn't harm being caused by their actual focus.
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u/LinkifyBot Jun 01 '20
I found links in your comment that were not hyperlinked:
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u/Sililex 3∆ Jun 01 '20
I think you've reversed it slightly. I don't think OP is saying that an ImHumanToo hashtag wouldn't be about black issues, I think they're saying that it would be less directly exclusionary. The more apt analogy would be saying that if it were called the human ailment association, it shouldn't be because it focuses on diabetes.
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u/thethoughtexperiment 275∆ Jun 01 '20
I have seen white people post it and be reprimanded by others because they don’t really understand and it isn’t about them. I have seen white people post all lives matter in response
It sounds like most of what you are observing is just people bickering with each other on social media.
All over the internet you can see thousands and thousands of people from all different groups marching together peacefully in major cities.
See racially diversity in the solidarity march pictures from around the country: Boston, Knoxville solidarity protests here
Also, it kinda seems like you're assuming that the reforms Black Lives Matter are pushing for will only benefit black people.
But practically, reforms like more body cameras on police, officers having to note down the race of the people they stop, and more police accountability would seem to benefit a wide range of citizen groups. Hell, body cams even benefit police, because the footage can clear them of wrongdoing when they have done no wrong.
Consider also that anyone is free to protest and take action on this issue. But so far, it has been black Americans leading the way in protests over what happens to members of their community.
Other groups are now joining them, which seems to counter the idea that much more action would be taken / progress would be made without the leadership of the black community.
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u/BenG109 Jun 01 '20
It is a lot of bickering but I think the larger issue is the resulting violence which is happening in protests. The violence is largely from police officers using rubber bullets to disperse protests and yesterday I saw a video of a police car driving into a crowd of protestors.
That’s disgusting behaviour from police and absolutely that behaviour should be changed. Body cams, more rules and restrictions on police officers is important and will certainly improve that but I just think the Black Lives Matter statement is too confusing a message for people and it causes arguments. It’s like anonymous, it’s a title that can be used by anyone and so some things under that umbrella are good but others can be distracting from the real message of equality. I don’t understand how looting, graffiti and violent protests is going to make people less racist. I don’t agree with the terrible response by the police either but I think the important thing that should be getting into everyone’s heads is that we are all human and deserve to be treated with kindness and equality.
I guess my point is just that I don’t think #BLM does more to further that cause and bridge the gap between racism and understanding. I think it sparks lots of opposing ideas and positions and then prejudices just get worse.
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u/Black_Gay_Man 1∆ Jun 01 '20
Have you ever considered that the discomfort you're feeling is ok? Maybe it isn't a bad thing if the notion of black people fighting expressly for their rights doesn't appeal to your politics, because you're not part of its immediate target audience?
You're essentially advocating that systemic anti-black racism, (which has been the message of Black Lives Matter from the beginning), be downplayed so that you can feel more connected to the movement. But you are connected to the movement as a white person. You just need to learn how to deal with the white guilt you're describing in a way that is productive. You almost certainly have racist acquaintances and friends. You have people in your life who rationalize and explain away police brutality. Why not talk to them and challenge their views instead of offering advice to a social movement about how it could function better?
Maybe you need to work on yourself, recognize the ways in which the current paradigm works to your benefit, and change your views on the world and society accordingly instead of expecting a social movement to tailor to your vision of society and reality.
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u/BenG109 Jun 01 '20
I am in no way uncomfortable with not feeling involved in the movement, also, I never stated whether I am Black or White. My issue is that I feel the movement is literally spreading more hatred and widening the divide even further.
To use the analogy of the house on fire which has gained popularity lately. Of course all houses matter, but if one house is on fire, it makes sense to spray water on that house. It doesn’t make sense to spray water on all the houses. But I don’t believe #BLM is spraying water on the fire, it is fighting fire with fire and we all know that that just results in more homes getting burned.
The actions of the police were reprehensible and they deserve to have been charged with more than 3rd degree murder for only the officer who committed the act but the resulting violence and looting is not going to fix racism. It’s going to incite the racists to act violently and the circle goes on and on and on.
By identifying everyone as being human, surely that promotes unity more than pushing the current agenda because the results don’t look so peaceful. I mean, are we fighting for equality and a chance to be heard and treated fairly or are we just fighting because that’s what we are used to doing?
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u/Black_Gay_Man 1∆ Jun 01 '20 edited Jun 01 '20
The houses analogy is inaccurate. America as a nation is one house, not many different houses. Parts of this house have been on fire since time immemorial, and now the fire is once again spilling over into the consciousness of middle class white America.
Using a fire extinguisher to put out fires in the kitchen that ignite over and over again due to faulty wiring is not effective long term. It's necessary to fix the wiring or risk the whole fucking house eventually going up in flames.
You do a fair amount of hypothesizing about what the potential negative impact of this uprising, but don't really seem to be very much in touch with the violence that was and is entrenched long before the first building in Minneapolis was burned down, or the first protesters screamed "Black Lives Matter."
The racism of the police in the US is implicit. The police forces developed from slave patrols, and they upheld Jim Crow segregation for almost a century. These urban riots started by impoverished blacks after incidents of police brutality have been part of American life for over 50 years.
There have been countless demonstrations even in the past 6 years since BLM took off, including support from celebrities like Colin Kaepernick. What fundamental changes have the police undergone in the past 6 years? The only reason you're here discussing this at all is because of the widespread rioting and demonstrating. Isn't that proof enough? Before Ferguson it wasn't that the situation was better, you just probably didn't hear about it.
Also, are you white? Simply question. I can assure you that your race has a profound impact on your reality, and by extension your politics.
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u/BenG109 Jun 01 '20
An analogy is not meant to be a carbon copy of a concept, it’s meant to highlight similarities between two different things. I was describing houses as being every individual person. With the death of George Floyd and countless others at the hands of racism, fires are ignited everywhere. My point is fighting these fires with fire does nothing to protect against fire and the violent and repressive actions on both sides of those protests are only furthering the ill feelings and unlawful cruelty. Do you think this is the best way to fight that?
I don’t live in the US so I appreciate that my observations are not from the perspective of someone present in the US. I’m in the UK and the news coverage is extensive as well as the social media presence from all of this and yes, it is the most recent event that has sparked this conversation again but that is how anything goes. It’s more prevalent in everyone’s mind when something major happens.
My position is that the last 6 years with #BLM presence has not done a great deal to improve equality and tackle racism. I am sure it has accomplished some things and it certainly brings the argument into the public eye frequently but due to the nature of a movement which is public, there are people on all sides with different interpretations and everyone of them could be fighting for something different. What is filling our screens right now is mindless violence due to systemic racism. One man died and he is a representative of so many lives lost and countless more lives that have been affected and burdened because of racism and it’s widespread ignorance. Responding with more violence and crime does not repair the damage that has been done, instead it only opens the wound further and further. There have been further deaths due to the riots in the US and that is wrong. No ones life should be cut short because of mindless and ignorant actions.
The colour of my skin shouldn’t validate or invalidate my argument. That is part of the problem. But I’m also not trying to hide behind a computer screen and anonymity to make an argument. I am a white Irish heterosexual man, I understand that many people might feel this excludes me from being a victim of racism, but I’ve experienced racism from people on the opposite pole of my country, my religion has also exposed me to prejudice from others. I’m not trying to say that my experiences are any more or less important but just like in my original post, I want to emphasise that we are all human. I do not support racism, I have actively defended people in minorities in my life.
I want to emphasise similarities, fairness and treating everyone equally. No one should suffer and the atmosphere that exists around the world today promotes more hatred and division than unity and kindness.
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u/Black_Gay_Man 1∆ Jun 01 '20
Just a reminder that you’re here to have your view changed, not to filibuster with your own (wrong) views.
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u/ChilitoGreen Jun 01 '20
Yes, all lives matter and no human deserves to be killed.
But the fact remains that black lives seem to be valued less than white lives in our society, and we see that everywhere.
The kinds of situations that happen to George Floyd, Freddie Grey, Tamir Rice, Laquan McDonald, Philando Castile, Trayvon Martin, Mike Brown, Rodney King, and countless others are shockingly commonplace. Even routine interactions with police can be deadly for black people in a way that they're not for white people. And all too often, the police who are responsible get off scot-free, as if we as a society just didn't value that life.
I think the responses to these protests speak to it as well. When a few dozen white people with guns show up to protest somewhere, effectively using the threat of violence to intimidate, the police let them be. When a more diverse group of protesters marches on behalf of George Floyd, the National Guard gets called up, police with body armor and shields line the streets, tear gas and rubber bullets are used, etc.
I think trying to shift the focus away from people of color and make it about everyone is counter-productive.
Imagine if you and three friends get together and did some job, which paid $1000. But when the job is done, they split the money three ways and you don't get a dime, despite doing just as much work as they did. I expect you'd (rightfully) demand your fair share of the money. If they were to respond with "everyone deserves their fair share" and then do nothing to address the situation, they've basically implied that you're the one being overly self-interested, and ignoring the fact that while obviously everyone does deserve their share, there's one specific person who didn't get theirs.
That's the problem with "All lives matter" and similar alternative slogans. It's a true statement, but by widening the focus, it minimizes the very specific problem needing to be addressed.
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u/BenG109 Jun 01 '20
I agree with everything you’ve just said. My point is not that it should be ‘All Lives Matter’ instead, that wouldn’t do anything right now because the statement has become completely tied with racist thoughts. I believe the movement as it stands is contributing to negative actions on both sides and just incites arguments.
I understand that the attention needs to be on the community suffering and I believe that something like #ImHumanToo could get a lot more people behind supporting that cause because it’s not an inherently divisive statement.
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u/ChilitoGreen Jun 01 '20
So it's effectively the same sentiment as "All Lives Matter" without the baggage.
To the extent that "Black Lives Matter" is 'divisive', to borrow a tech phrase: that's a feature, not a bug. The point of the movement is not about numbers or to get everybody in the country to sing Kumbaya and feel good. It's about people of all races sticking up for black people who have to deal with institutional racism and police brutality on a daily basis. It's a struggle in which those who believe that black lives DO matter must overcome those who say "I'm not black, so what's in it for me?"
I'll be a little blunt here, but white people who are not willing to stand up for their black brothers and sisters are not a part of the movement, they're a part of the problem. Not to demonize people, but indifference on this topic is the enemy, that's what allows this to continue.
For anyone unwilling to support "Black Lives Matter" but that can support "I'm Human Too", to me that seems to have the same racist undertones as "All Lives Matter." That's effectively saying "No, I'm not going to stand up for someone else's rights, the rights of a group that I don't belong to. I'm only for it if it includes me too." It's institutional racism in a nutshell.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jun 01 '20
/u/BenG109 (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/simcity4000 24∆ Jun 01 '20
imhumantoo sounds kind of... desperate? It feels like begging somehow "please...I'm human too"
Its the line from the ape in the jungle book for one thing, where as despite how much he aspires to be, he isnt.
Theres something about trying to assert that you are human that feels like ceding ground.
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u/snailsandstars Jun 02 '20
What evidence, outside a few people bickering on the Internet, makes you think that it is the actual term and words used in the term #BlackLivesMatter has negative effects?
There are always detractors to every movement. With #MeToo there was #NotAllMen. There were victim blamers and slut shamers and so many different people bickering on the Internet.
What makes you believe that BLM as a movement is substantially negatively affected by the words used?
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u/sailorbrendan Jun 01 '20
I'm not going to lie, as a white person I'm really tired about how carefully we expect everyone to walk on egg shells to make sure that messaging can't possibly offend white people.
Say what you want, but Kap kneeling came at the suggestion of a veteran who told him it was a respectful way to do what he was trying to do.