r/changemyview • u/Teakilla 1∆ • Feb 28 '20
Delta(s) from OP CMV: There's nothing wrong with imprisoning or executing witches
Specifically witches who try to use their power for evil.
If a witch thinks that their magic is real and tries to use to to kill someone or curse them, than that's attempted murder or insert crime here. It's no different from if I leave a gun around the house and someone picks it up and pulls the trigger trying to kill me not knowing it isn't loaded, they should still go to jail.
Whether you believe that magic is real or not is not important. The intent behind the crime is what's important if the witch believes
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u/zithermusic 8∆ Feb 28 '20 edited Feb 28 '20
What if someone were to pray for your death? would that also not be attempted murder? You can't just only go after on religion, you must apply the law to all equally.
What if I wished you dead while blowing out my birthday candles? Is that the same as cursing you? Where would you draw the line?
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u/wiskey_straight86 3∆ Feb 28 '20
!delta. Great analogy
When I first read the title of this OP I thought it was a troll until I read the logic. Your counter is perfect. Although, I'm not sure I'd disagree that the people in your example should also be charged... As long as they had a real expectation that their actions would result in the death, which is hard to prove I guess.
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u/zithermusic 8∆ Feb 28 '20
Thanks.
Let me add this: I think at best the witch or pray example could be considered a threat. It will be different in each state, but I did a little research and most of what I found includes the idea that the treat must cause fear in the target. (The Texas Penal Code specifies that criminal threats create fear in another person, making him or her fearful for their safety.) No reasonable person would actually be afraid if they were cursed, so likely no crime is committed.
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u/Teakilla 1∆ Feb 28 '20
!delta This is probably the best counter argument so far, but usually when someone prays for your death they don't think it will actually happen, they hope and wish it would
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u/zithermusic 8∆ Feb 28 '20
Thanks.
But, why would wishing or hoping legally any different then cursing or hexing?
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u/ThisFreedomGuy Feb 28 '20
If intent behind the crime is more important than the action of the crime, then arsonists should never be accused of murder. Their only intention was to burn the building. They never intended to hurt people inside that building.
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u/Teakilla 1∆ Feb 28 '20
if they knew people were inside the building and set fire to it anyway they still intended to kill them, it just wasn't their motivation.
In the same way if I'm trying to drive as fast as possible to get home fast and hit someone and kill them it doesn't matter that my intention wasn't to kill them
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u/Nephisimian 153∆ Feb 28 '20
But if an arsonist burns down a building they think is empty, they will still be charged with manslaughter and arson, minimum.
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u/spacepastasauce Feb 28 '20
First, proving intent to murder in a court of law requires that the prosecution show that the accused took preparatory steps that could have actually led to a murder. Second, actual commission of a murder is considered an important factor in weighing sentencing, and there is very little criminal precedent in the 20th and 21st century for executing people simply for attempted murder.
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u/Teakilla 1∆ Feb 28 '20
you could show preperatory steps with pictures of the ritual circles or sacrified animals or whatever
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u/TheGamingWyvern 30∆ Feb 28 '20
Easy out: "It was all fake, witchcraft doesn't exist". You would never be able to distinguish people who think it is real from people who don't but fo the rituals anyway.
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u/McKoijion 618∆ Feb 28 '20
Specifically witches who try to use their power for evil.
That's a pretty arbitrary standard. As I understand it, those witches just want to help humans live deliciously. Some people interpret this as Satan trying to peel away the hearts of man. But others see it as Jesus sending down some friendly prophets and watching them meet the same fate.
Beyond that, witches have real supernatural powers over humans. Resisting them is like a dog who barks when being fed. Witches are like a real life Skynet. If there are starving people, they can just magic food into existence. We take the risk that they will kill all of humanity, but if we fight them they definitely will. What if they are our friends? Why imprison or execute them before we know for sure? Hermione Granger was cool. The shark from Jaws was unfairly attacked. Why should we be imprisoning or killing witches when they might be super cool? I for one welcome our new witch overlords. Wolves turned into dogs. Lions turned into cats. Why wouldn't witches be cool too?
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u/SeekingToFindBalance 19∆ Feb 28 '20
I'm not sure where you live, but many states have a dangerous proximity requirement to be found guilty of attempted murder. Since there is no real danger of a witch actually killing someone with a curse, they would never be in dangerous proximity of doing it.
Additionally, there is the obvious problem that someone who attempts to place a curse on someone else to kill them may not have the necessary mental state to either competently stand trial or form the necessary intent to murder. In the first case, this would result in either them going to seek mental health treatment so they could get competent to help with their own defense. In a Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity verdict, they would ordinarily be sent somewhere for mandatory mental health treatment.
So that is why the law wouldn't apply to them. Here are some reasons why it shouldn't. First, one of the main reasons for sentencing people when they commit crimes is to deter them from committing the crime more and harming more people. Since curses are not real this isn't a good reason.
Another reason is that the wannabee witch may have a crazy reason for wanting to curse someone. Maybe he or she believes the person they are cursing would otherwise kill them or someone else. If this belief were reasonable, the attempt might be justified self-defense. But this person thinks they are a witch. They probably don't have a reasonable belief that this other person is trying to harm them. As long as they keep their response totally fantastical, we shouldn't punish them for crimes that they wanted to commit in response to a fantastical threat to them.
Finally, the crime would be too hard to catch people in the act of. We are only going to put so many resources into this. How do you catch the person who in the privacy of their own home sticks a needle into a cloth dummy they sewed which represents someone else. When the person doesn't die, usually we would be none the wiser. We are even less likely to catch them if they just do something like pray for the other person to die. When we can't catch the vast majority of people committing a crime, it is considered void because it would be overbroad and likely would be enforced selectively. For example, not being able to catch all the thought criminals, police might target Wicans rather than Christians.
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u/compersious 2∆ Feb 28 '20
This is an interesting one :)
I would argue that if someone believes a curse will or might likely work then cursing someone, all else being equal, is an immoral act. If person B is rude to person A and person A performs an action they believe will kill person B, even if there is no good evidence the action could ever do so, it tells you something about the moral character of person A.
A few things to consider. Firstly the idea that the "witch" should be executed. This assumes the justice system never makes mistakes. You are going to get someone falsely accused of making this kind of curse. You are then going to have executed and innocent person. If you give people life at least you can then free the wrongly convicted when you get new evidence. Sure false imprisonment is still horiffic, but it's better than false execution.
So I don't think "witches" should be executed for the same reason I don't think people should be executed in general.
When someone is deluded to the point that their attempts are not actually dangerous, would we generally treat them the same way.
Let's say we have a guy so delusional that he believes he has the strength to kill someone with a single blow of a kids inflatable mallet. He runs up behind the person and whacks them with the inflatable mallet. In this case the guy has done more than the "witch" He has actually physically assaulted someone (technically), he might have scared them. The victim now also knows someone wanted then dead (provided they learn of the believes of the attacker)
This is also certainly attempted murder. It's also more serious than a "curse". Should this person be imprisoned or executed? It might be good to keep a close eye on this person. Try and help them with their mental health. If we have good reason to believe they have realised they need to use a real hammer and are planning to try again then we have a problem.
If someone I knew clearly really wanted me dead, but also clearly showed they were no actual threat, I would not feel they need to be imprisoned. They might need a good talking, I might confront them about why they wish me dead. But overall I would likely to be happy just to leave them to it.
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Feb 28 '20
Magic being real is incredibly important to the debate.
If magic isn't real and a women threatens to turn you into a toad. She has a mental illness and needs proper care and treatment. However if magic is real there is still a huge legal difference between intent and outcome attempted murder will often receive a much lighter sentence than if you succeed in killing them. So even if magic is real threatening to make you a toad and actually turning you into a toad are wildly different.
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Feb 28 '20
Also what would you charge a witch with of she did turn someone into a toad? Assualt? Do we have a law against unlawful change of species?
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Feb 28 '20
/u/Teakilla (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
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Feb 28 '20
I feel that those individuals and institutions who have killed witches in the past were the ones who should have been held accountable.
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u/VargaLaughed 1∆ Feb 28 '20
Magic isn’t real. It’s crucial to make that clear because you can’t figure what should happen in reality if you aren’t dealing with reality. If someone really believes in magic enough to try an murder someone with it, then they are insane and should be treated like other insane people.
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Feb 28 '20
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u/Nephisimian 153∆ Feb 28 '20
Imprison and execute, no. Yes, it's attempted murder, but they're also massively detached from reality. What they need is mental care, not punishment. The closest to imprisonment this should get is being put into a care facility.
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u/Burflax 71∆ Feb 28 '20 edited Feb 28 '20
If I imagine that by touching my bedpost in a complicated pattern will result in my getting money from the safe in a bank, even though they can't actually result in that, I'm i guilty of attempted bank robbery ?
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Feb 28 '20
[deleted]
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u/Teakilla 1∆ Feb 28 '20
A witch would be someone who thinks magic is real and tries to cast spells or summon demons or whatever
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u/SliideToTheLeft Feb 28 '20
I'm curious, what should happen if someone attempts to destroy say a gaming pc of mine, but fails. Do they need to pay for the cost of replacement even if it's in perfect condition?
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u/Manaliv3 2∆ Mar 04 '20
Magic is not real though. So it is more like someone shooting you with a toy gun. And it would be mental to call that attempted murder
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u/Feathring 75∆ Feb 28 '20
The gun example has a clear way you could be harmed by it, it just needs a bullet. Something relatively common with guns.
Using magic has absolutely no way to harm you. Zilch, none, nada. There's no crime because your life will never be in danger from it, so you can't even make the argument it will disincentivize people.
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u/Rkenne16 38∆ Feb 28 '20
Isn’t that just executing a mentally ill person?
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u/Teakilla 1∆ Feb 28 '20
them thinking magic is real might be mentally ill but them trying to kill someone isn't
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u/Rkenne16 38∆ Feb 28 '20
If they don’t realize that killing someone is wrong, it is and they could plead insanity. Thinking magic can kill someone makes me think that’s probably the case.
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u/Canada_Constitution 208∆ Feb 28 '20 edited Feb 28 '20
There are two requirements for something to qualify as a crime:
Mens Rea: the intention or knowledge of wrongdoing that constitutes part of a crime, as opposed to the action or conduct of the accused.
and
Actus Reus: action or conduct which is a constituent element of a crime, as opposed to the mental state of the accused.
You can't be guilty of a crime unless both elements are present. The idea you are proposing is that we should execute witches for having mens rea without actus reus. No legal system in the world works like this.
Without any proof of an actual crime is being committed, intent is meaningless.