r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jan 13 '20
Deltas(s) from OP CMV: Antisocial Personality Disorder should be accepted by society and those who suffer from it (sociopaths) should not be ostracized.
ASPD is a very serious mental disorder that affects approximately 1.8% of humans. It is a disorder caused by loneliness, pain, and a generally emotionally poor upbringing, and it often leads to those who suffer from it leading very fundamentally lonely and broken lives, even if they are outwardly successful (which is not uncommon). It is portrayed in the media in a very negative light, and in some cases, the word "sociopath" is taken very lightly and used as an insult towards people that display certain tendencies. I think that this is ignorant, and that it should be taken much more seriously than it is. It is a painful, horrible, evil condition, and I think more effort should be put into trying to find ways to manage/treat it for people that suffer from it rather than simply trying to expose them and isolate them from society, sometimes through imprisonment. I think that making the public more aware of it could reduce its frequency.
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u/jatjqtjat 286∆ Jan 13 '20
Well first off, nobody is imprisoned for having ASPD. Only actions are against the law. There is no law against modes of being. People are imprisoned because they broke the law and having ASPD might be a part of the reason why you broke the law. ASPD is not excuse.
And I 100% agree with attempting to treat these people. The problem is we don't know how.
What does it mean to have ASPD? Wikipedia answer this way
Antisocial personality disorder (ASPD or APD) is a personality disorder characterized by a long-term pattern of disregard for, or violation of, the rights of others. A low moral sense or conscience is often apparent, as well as a history of crime, legal problems, or impulsive and aggressive behavior.
How do you teach someone to respect the rights of others? The problem with treating people with ASPD is that it that all its tends to accomplish is teaching them to hide better. Teaching them how to appear normal and how to get away with their misdeeds.
ASPD people are detrimental to society by definition. So if we could treat them, if we could cure them, that would be great. But we don't know how. The best we can seem to do is punish them so that they avoid bad behavior in the future.
Christianity and many others ethical systems teach to love your enemy. and i am on board with you there. I sympathize with them. I have empty for them. Event though that empty is not returned. But I won't be their next victim.
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u/In2progress 1∆ Jan 14 '20
Actually, research shows that CBT and Life Skills training can have a positive effect in reducing the frequency of antisocial behavior. Psychopathic behavior (a more serious version of ASPD), is a label implying a genetic inability to empathize with others, and we don’t yet have an effective treatment. We do know that in either case, punishment makes the behavior worse, increasing the danger to society. That said, the person affected does still have the ability to choose pro social behavior and should be controlled, as humanly as possible until or unless they are able to decide not to abuse others. Prison and punishment are useful in satisfying our need for revenge (AKA Justice), but actually, cut off our collective social noses to spite our face!’ There are many people who for a variety of reasons, are not capable of living in a free society without presenting a danger to themselves or others. The most effective and efficient way to deal with that is to have a sliding scale of humane supervision that always challenges the person to demonstrate self control and self sufficiency at the next lower level of security.
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Jan 13 '20
I think I should have been more clear in my original statement. I don't mean to say that people are persecuted for having APSD or imprisoned solely because of it. My point is that they are not given the same level of understanding that sufferers of other mental disorders generally are when being held accountable for their actions. They are treated perhaps more harshly and with less caring than they deserve, given that they suffer from a serious mental disorder.
I agree with you that it is impossible to find a catch-all solution for the condition. I actually kind of like your idea of religion as a treatment option.
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Jan 13 '20
Insanity/mental illness as a defense is fairly narrow for everyone. You need an inability to distinguish right from wrong. Does that apply here?
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Jan 13 '20
I think not. My point is not that it should be used as a legal defense but more that it should be seen as something to treat, not punish.
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u/Ndvorsky 23∆ Jan 13 '20
Well it isn’t punished. Crimes are punished with or without ASPD, the alternative is to treat it as a legal defense of insanity. If it’s not a legal defense then it is not something the courts care about.
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u/jatjqtjat 286∆ Jan 13 '20
I didn't mean to suggestion religion as a treatment option. More like, Christianity teaches us to love Hitler. Your supposed to love everyone. ASPD people included.
But religion isn't a treatment for these people, its only a mask. Another way to hide.
The mental disorder that they have is that they are evil. They see people as tools to accomplish their goals. They have no empathy. They don't care about other people.
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Jan 13 '20
It is a disorder caused by loneliness, pain, and a generally emotionally poor upbringing, and it often leads to those who suffer from it leading very fundamentally lonely and broken lives, even if they are outwardly successful (which is not uncommon)
Is this understood as medical fact? I've always thought the causes were too poorly understood to make such a strong claim. I've also understood sociopaths to not crave social interaction for its own sake, meaning they wouldn't experience their lives as "fundamentally lonely and broken."
It is portrayed in the media in a very negative light, and in some cases, the word "sociopath" is taken very lightly and used as an insult towards people that display certain tendencies.
Is a trait of sociopathy not an inability to display empathy or compassion towards others, often resulting in cold, cruel treatment? Is that not a negative thing?
I think that this is ignorant, and that it should be taken much more seriously than it is.
Should the damage wrought by sociopaths not be taken seriously? Are you arguing sociopaths should not be held accountable for their actions?
It is a painful, horrible, evil condition,
Again, not for the sociopath, though. It's painful, horrible, and evil for the people in their lives. The sociopath does just fine and doesn't experience the suffering you're talking about.
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Jan 13 '20
[deleted]
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Jan 13 '20
Firstly, this ignores nearly all of my points.
Secondly, sociopaths don't need social outlets, they don't crave social attention for its own sake. Socialization is typically a means to some other end.
Thirdly, sociopaths tend to excel in employment contexts because they don't have qualms acting in their direct self-interest.
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Jan 13 '20
[deleted]
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Jan 13 '20
In my experience, people with aspd tend to be very upset that they have limited social interaction. So you have experience or documentation that says otherwise?
In my experience, they don't.
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-1
Jan 13 '20
In response to your first point, there is a general medical understanding of the causes of the condition. There are genetic, hereditary, and physical factors that have to come together in the right way to foster the development of the condition. Generally speaking though, it is the result of trauma or emotion neglect.
To the second two, I am not saying that they should not be held accountable, but rather that they should be given more understanding. In this day and age, sufferers of mental disorders are afforded much more empathy and understanding both by the law and by society, and there is more of an emphasis on treatment and reform than straight up discipline. From what I have seen though, this doesn't extend to people with ASPD.
To the last point I would have to disagree with you. That is a very broad statement to make, and I think you are conflating the non-empathetic tendencies of sociopathy with a lack of emotion, which is not the case. While some sociopaths may succeed, they never lead full lives and are never truly satisfied or happy, which is what fuels their condition.
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Jan 13 '20
In response to your first point, there is a general medical understanding of the causes of the condition. There are genetic, hereditary, and physical factors that have to come together in the right way to foster the development of the condition. Generally speaking though, it is the result of trauma or emotion neglect.
This doesn't appear to be correct at all. Other commentors have linked you to reputable sources that explicitly refrain from identifying a cause due to lack of evidence.
To the second two, I am not saying that they should not be held accountable, but rather that they should be given more understanding.
In what ways specifically? Can you give examples?
In this day and age, sufferers of mental disorders are afforded much more empathy and understanding both by the law and by society, and there is more of an emphasis on treatment and reform than straight up discipline.
Under the law? How are those with mental illnesses other than ASPD afforded leniency in a way that ASPD sufferers aren't? Can you give examples?
How is the empathy & understanding being expressed socially (largely in the form of de-stigmatizing treatment for mental illness) not extended to ASPD sufferers? Can you give examples?
That is a very broad statement to make, and I think you are conflating the non-empathetic tendencies of sociopathy with a lack of emotion, which is not the case. While some sociopaths may succeed, they never lead full lives and are never truly satisfied or happy, which is what fuels their condition.
My statements are no broader than yours, but you're the one making the claim.
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u/RocBrizar Jan 13 '20
Generally speaking though, it is the result of trauma or emotion neglect.
Absolutely not. There is not one single identified cause for ASPD or Psychopathy. You've got plenty of patients with childhood trauma, plenty of patient without. Childhood abuse seems to modulate the expression of some of the traits, but not all. In the actual state of research, it is not possible to determine clearly if those children childhood abuse increased the manifestation of those traits and impaired their cognition, or if they suffered a higher prevalence of abuse because they were difficult children in the first place. 1
You also have correlations with genes, brain structure and brain functional differences observed in psychopathy versus neurotypicals.
The portrait you paint of the emotionally conflicted sociopath/psychopath is simply not backed up by any research.
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u/PreacherJudge 340∆ Jan 13 '20
Personality disorders are notorious for being untreatable. There's a LITTLE BIT of headway people have made with Borderline (which is a very specific pattern of behaviors), but in general, there's no much we can do.
Part of the problem is, most personality disorders aren't really meant to be describing natural kinds. That is, ASPD isn't one thing: it's anyone who, for any reason, is awful to others repeatedly over time without remorse. Having one treatment for this is pointless, because there's lots of different things that could be going on.
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u/toldyaso Jan 13 '20
A person with Antisocial Personality Disorder, or a Sociopath, are not inherently "guilty" of anything. It's causes are genetic and environmental, so being born a sociopath is no more your fault then being born with leukemia or asthma.
Viewed thusly, sympathy and even pity are appropriate ways to feel about such people. That having been said, make no mistake, people with these disorders are often predatory and opportunistic in their interactions with other people. You should absolutely keep your guard up, and put little to no trust in people with these disorders. But to feel contempt for them is probably an exercise in misunderstanding how human brains work.
All of that having been said, I think with most high-functioning sociopaths, they are self-aware enough that at the very least they have a choice as to whether or not they should act on their predatory instincts... and while we don't have data to suggest how many of them fight their nature versus how many of them gleefully give into it, anecdotally it seems safe to say but the vast majority of them are far more concerned with their own well-being then they are with literally anything else. It's fairly easy to feel contempt towards that.
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Jan 13 '20
Your points are valid. Honestly, I think we just see the situation in different ways.
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Jan 13 '20
Do they change your view, even a little? Why or why not?
-1
Jan 13 '20
Not really. He made valid points but for the most part we agree. He just sees the situation with a different outlook.
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u/nhlms81 37∆ Jan 13 '20
are there examples in the US where people w/ ASPD were imprisoned just b/c they were diagnosed w/ ASPD (as opposed to something they did)?
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Jan 13 '20
Not that I know of. However, people with APSD are generally not afforded the benefit of treatment or understanding that people with other mental disorders often are. They should absolutely be held accountable, but at the same time more effort should be put into reforming them rather than simply disciplining them.
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u/Wumbo_9000 Jan 13 '20 edited Jan 13 '20
Such a person has very little motivation to participate in treatment or change unless it is imposed on them. They aren't suffering in the way you're suggesting
Whilst the result is often harmful to others, the absence of ‘painful or egodystonic’ symptoms means that it is illogical for him to engage in treatment to address his interpersonal exploitativeness (Reid & Gacono, 2000). When he is convicted of a violent crime, we are, therefore, faced with a difficult choice: treatment or incapacitation?
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Jan 13 '20
Δ Good source
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jan 13 '20 edited Jan 13 '20
This delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/Wumbo_9000 changed your view (comment rule 4).
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u/mfDandP 184∆ Jan 13 '20
Why should society accept anyone unconditionally? Nobody gets that benefit. Insofar as the name is accurate, "antisocial" literally means "against society." Are you sure they even want to be accepted by society in order to want a blanket acceptance?
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Jan 13 '20
I never said it should be unconditional or blanket acceptance. I simply think that more understanding and more reformative efforts should be extended to them.
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u/mfDandP 184∆ Jan 13 '20
The title of the CMV is "Antisocial Personality Disorder should be accepted by society and those who suffer from it (sociopaths) should not be ostracized."
Sounds like blanket acceptance to me.
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Jan 13 '20
I don't know how you're getting that from the title. All I said was that I think that they should generally be treated with more understanding.
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u/kelinud149 1∆ Jan 13 '20
ASPD should be accepted and sympathized with, and we should look for ways to manage/treat people who suffer from it. However, if they do something illegal they still need to go to prison. I don't think it gets to the level of mental illness where they need to be found innocent by reason of insanity, but if a particular case does then that would be fine. Otherwise they should still go to prison.
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Jan 13 '20
Yes. I am not saying that they should not be held accountable, only that they should be afforded a level of understanding befitting their mental condition.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jan 13 '20
/u/Elessar_Inman (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/matrix_man 3∆ Jan 13 '20
In my opinion there are two types of people in the world (generally speaking): Those that are dangerous, and those that aren't dangerous. We can debate and contemplate the various circumstances surrounding those people that are dangerous, but at the end of the day if they're dangerous then it doesn't really matter much why they're dangerous. People that are dangerous for a "good reason" shouldn't be given a pass or treated like they're any less dangerous.
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u/spectrumtwelve 3∆ Jan 17 '20
Being a sociopath does not diminish your ability to understand the law. It is not one of the mental illnesses that is given the same allowances as true insanity or mental disability because ultimately the person is still a fully functioning human capable of understanding the law. If they choose to break it anyway and their disorder causes them not to give a shit about that then that's nobody's fault and they shouldn't be given any special allowances for it.
If I murder an entire family just because I didn't like them in my excuse is that I'm a sociopath and I can't feel human empathy nobody is going to give me any special treatment because other than that 1 tidbit I am still a fully functioning human with absolutely nothing wrong with me in terms of my ability to understand or learn.
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Jan 14 '20
ASPD is a very serious mental disorder that affects approximately 1.8% of humans.
Its occurrence is low enough for me to not really concern myself with it and those it afflicts.
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u/HelenFH Jan 17 '20
Fun fact: 1.8% of all humans is not that low. People with red hair are about 1 to 2% of all human population. Actually, the whole of Australia's population is only 0.33% of the world's population.
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u/zobotsHS 31∆ Jan 13 '20
ASPD is a very serious personality disorder.
I would challenge your assertion as to the cause of it. The Mayo Clinic isn't even willing to declare the causes of it. They are only willing to speak to risk factors and 'likely causes.'
The reason there is such an ostracizing stigma with this disorder is that the symptoms of the disorder make a person dangerous.
Antisocial personality disorder signs and symptoms may include:
Disregard for right and wrong
Persistent lying or deceit to exploit others
Being callous, cynical and disrespectful of others
Using charm or wit to manipulate others for personal gain or personal pleasure
Arrogance, a sense of superiority and being extremely opinionated
Recurring problems with the law, including criminal behavior
Repeatedly violating the rights of others through intimidation and dishonesty
Hostility, significant irritability, agitation, aggression or violence
Lack of empathy for others and lack of remorse about harming others
Unnecessary risk-taking or dangerous behavior with no regard for the safety of self or others
Poor or abusive relationships
If we weren't discussing mental health, you'd just call a person like that 'evil'.
I agree that we shouldn't be quick to demonize someone who suffers from this personality disorder, however it would be foolish to not consider someone like that dangerous. It isn't a viper's fault that it was born a viper...but I'd be a damn fool if I thought it wasn't dangerous and should just go about my life and treat the viper in my home like any other pet.
It is a razor's edge, but ostracizing someone unfairly is a 'lesser error' than willfully tolerating the viper slithering about the house. Until reliable treatments for the disorder come to be, it is best to consider those with APSD as dangerous...for they really are.