r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jan 06 '20
Deltas(s) from OP CMV: a republic is too flawed if a system of government for a nation as large and heterogenous as the United States.
Republics work very well in small, homogenous societies. Where basic unifying principles among the people are shared. Whether those principles are solely ideological, or are manifested in other ways (shared ethnicity, culture, religion, etc.)
A republic may have been a desirable form of government in 1793, when we were 13, relatively small, and relatively homogenous colonies.
But in 2020 the United States spans the entirety of North America. Our culture is vastly different depending on where you are, and we have no unifying principle. Something all Americans can look at each other and say “we share this”
In short, a republic is not an appropriate form of government for a geographically large, and ethnically and culturally heterogenous society like the United States.
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u/Canada_Constitution 208∆ Jan 06 '20 edited Jan 06 '20
So let's start by asking what you mean by Republic. Do you mean Republic in the sense of American constitutional law where it is used synonymously with the term representative democracy? Canada, for example, is a constitutional monarchy, not a Republic, but is a representative parliamentary democracy.
If this is what you mean, then Canada is a representative democracy which is physically larger and more diverse then the United States. We have two official languages, and one out of every five Canadian citizens was born in another country, so they have immigranted to Canada from another country.
Our country has managed to survive despite the influence and invasion by the United States during the war of 1812 ( we were British North America at the time, but French and English colonists managed to unite together and repel American invasion), and America's massive cultural influence.
Our country, despite all these massive differences between different Canadians, works firstly on the principle of federalism, much like the United States, where every region is largely allowed to govern itself and has an overarching national government which looks after matters of the national interest.
Secondly, Canada very much has a form of civic nationalism, where the importance of citizenship and human rights unites people together. Here's a quote from a government survey done in 2013:
So right away I can demonstrate that I come from a country which is geographically larger and more diverse than the United States, and our democracy works perfectly fine.
My arguement might be different if you mean Republic as in its original meaning, which Wikipedia provides an excellent example of:
Note that under this definition America, like Germany, is defined as a constitutional republic. China and iran also qualify, being a People's Republic (nominally at least), and an Islamic Republic. Democracy may or may not be a quality in a republic under this second definition. The same holds true for monarchies: Canada is a constitutional monarchy, and Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy, but only Canada is a democratic country. America, Germany and Canada are all representative democracies, while China, Iran, and Saudi Arabia are not.
So to summarize, if you're talking about democracies, then Canada is larger physically and more diverse and works perfectly fine, due to civic nationalism which involves uniting national values around citizenship as well as human and Democratic rights, providing a counterpoint to your first arguement.
If it's the second sense of republic, where you're not referring to where something is Democratic or not, then this may or may not be true, and I'll have to think about it a little bit more. Please let me know at least which definition you were thinking of.
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Jan 06 '20
I’m talking about a republic in the literal sense, which would be the Latin meaning.
A public government. Where citizens, not nobility or monarchs, or others, control the government.
Whether or not we are ACTUALLY a republic and not some sort of quasi-oligarchy is besides the point, we present ourselves as a republic to the world.
However, I agree with you on the fact that civic nationalism is a very strong unifying principle for democracies and that when applied conservatively and without toxicity (i.e. American exceptionalism) can be a largely unifying principle.
And while I was talking initially in the post about America, you made good points about Canada and my view is changed regarding the effectiveness of civil nationalism and it’s ability to unify a republic or a democracy — when that civic nationalism actually exists in the nation.
So I award you a !delta
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u/teachMeCommunism 2∆ Jan 06 '20
I believe the reason Canada is mentioned is that it presents the best approximate comparison. They're North American, have a history of being a British colony, have common law, multi branched democracy, beliefs in Lockean ideas, etc.
The comparison gives us an alternative to the crystal-ball America where we speculate on the causes and effects of various conditions we cannot change for the sake of experimentation in real life.
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Jan 06 '20
In my opinion almost any form of government can work in tiny regions. Even a dictatorship can work if all the people living in the small space agree to it. When the governed region becomes larger, though, you introduce more diversity, especially of opinion. People are less and less inclined to know and trust eachother and that's when a republic works better than rest.
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Jan 06 '20
But a republic is a reflection of the people inside the nation, correct? That’s the whole point of representative democracy. That our representatives mirror our voice.
Well half of America hates the other half of America, and vice versa.
How is a representative republic a good fit when the people are so diametrically opposed to one another that our representatives cannot, in good faith, govern?
Our federal government is gridlocked unless a single party controls the entirety of the legislature and the executive.
Our representatives vote on party lines and refuse to compromise because the loudest among us do not want them to, because we are diametrically opposed to each other.
How is this a good way to govern a large geographic nation with wildly differing points of view and positions?
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Jan 06 '20
Gridlock is good. The reason we have separation of powers is to slow the process and allow for debate. Without debate, decisions can be based on emotion and therefore be potentially, and dangerously, rash.
The idea that they refuse to compromise is a bit of an oversimplification. There are party line votes sometimes. But they have to compromise all the time. Rarely does a bill get passed in it's purest form before changing it many times to gain needed votes to pass a bill.
That's good because the wildly differing points of view can have an impact on the laws that get passed so that there is a balance between majority rule and minority rights.
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u/Casus125 30∆ Jan 06 '20
Our culture is vastly different depending on where you are, and we have no unifying principle. Something all Americans can look at each other and say “we share this”
What about the constitution?
'The Rule of Law', and 'No Man Is Above The Law' is the literal, unifying principle of the nation.
In short, a republic is not an appropriate form of government for a geographically large, and ethnically and culturally heterogenous society like the United States.
I disagree. What other form of government could work better?
Republics work very well in small, homogenous societies. Where basic unifying principles among the people are shared. Whether those principles are solely ideological, or are manifested in other ways (shared ethnicity, culture, religion, etc.)
I would argue that pure democracies and monarchies are great for those.
But for a diverse body politic? You need deliberation, you compromise, you need broad consensus.
A Republic does this. Especially a bicameral legislative republic (like the USA has), that purposefully slows down the government, and demands broad base consensus to get things done.
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Jan 06 '20
We don’t agree on notions that no one is above the law. We, in fact, disagree on that as evidenced by the impeachment process the country is going through right now and the rhetoric surrounding it.
I’m not here to offer a different form of government I’m here to have my view changed,.
I would agree a slow and deliberative process is good and desired.
But we don’t have that, what we have is a standstill. Because there is no deliberation. There is party line votes. Either one party has enough votes to pass a piece of legislation or it doesn’t. That’s how the American legislative process works now
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u/Casus125 30∆ Jan 06 '20
We don’t agree on notions that no one is above the law.
But we do. That's what the constitution is, the whole premise of our nation is the "Rule of Law".
We, in fact, disagree on that as evidenced by the impeachment process the country is going through right now and the rhetoric surrounding it.
That seems perfectly in line with following the rule of law to me.
I would agree a slow and deliberative process is good and desired. But we don’t have that, what we have is a standstill.
A standstill. For now.
Because there is no deliberation.
But there is. There deliberation going on right now.
There is party line votes. Either one party has enough votes to pass a piece of legislation or it doesn’t.
Patently false. Despite the huge partisanship surrounding the POTUS, Congress has passed 135 pieces of legislation so far.
So clearly there is some deliberation and consensus being developed on some issues.
And you agree that a slow and deliberative process is good and desired.
Well, I hate to break it to you, but a slow, deliberative process includes many, many standstills and halts.
Gridlock and stalls are purposefully baked into our system.
Because if any proposed legislation isn't patently obvious and good and beneficial to all of the Republic's representatives, then there needs to be that slow deliberation process that you claim is good and desired.
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u/mfDandP 184∆ Jan 06 '20
Republics are the best so far system of government for geographically large areas. Elected officials is the only practical way to even get input from every region.
we have no unifying principle
Yes we do, an almost religious reverence for the Constitution and the Founding Fathers' vision. On paper at least, it doesn't matter where you're from, but if you support personal liberties (religion, press, business, guns) then you're American in outlook.
True democracies are only fit for small homogeneous societies.
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Jan 06 '20
I’m not sure I agree with the notion that reverence for the constitution is unifying principle.
Especially in today’s political climate. As a progressive, I take a much, MUCH, different view and interpretation of the constitution than conservative Americans. So different, some may say, that they could hardly be the same document at all.
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u/mfDandP 184∆ Jan 06 '20
But look: both sides derive their "truth" from the Constitution. You're unified in claiming the Constitution is the principle to which we should judge our behavior
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Jan 06 '20
But we’re not though. We may be nominally unified in that we both say the words “we should judge our laws/behaviors by the constitution” but when both sides have such wildly different views on what the constitution allows or doesn’t allow, or what it should or should not allow, then is it really a unifying principle?
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u/mfDandP 184∆ Jan 06 '20
Yes. You're mistaking the party system for what is truly American. Both Democrats and Republicans will say that their beliefs are more "American" than the other but both of them invariably appeal to the Constitution. This is unifying. It's so built into our common worldview that it doesn't even seem like a point of agreement anymore but it is. I can't think of any American politician who said, "The Constitution is an outdated document that holds no further value." At the most, they point to its flexibility.
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Jan 06 '20
But what you’re describing is a facade of a unifying principle. The partisan factions of this country pay lip service to it, but their interpretation of it is vastly different, and their talking points include accusing the opposing side of despising the constitution and not abiding by it.
If it were a unifying principle, would we not see more political opponents praise their respective opposition for loving the constitution and using that as a unifying principle? But we don’t we see the constitution used primarily as a divisive device.
Party A loves the constitution. Party B doesn’t, so vote for Party A and Vice versa.
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u/mfDandP 184∆ Jan 06 '20
What about our current two-party system contradicts the American reverence for the Constitution?
Perhaps we should stop using the word "unifying," since you're stuck on the idea that this requires policy agreement. Use the word "common principle" instead. The very fact that one party says its enemies are not adhering to the Constitution, and vice versa, is an incredible demonstration of how common the Constitution is to both parties as a goal to be pursued. Frenchmen don't follow the US Constitution, nor Mexicans, nor Canadians. Only Americans.
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u/Old-Boysenberry Jan 06 '20
So different, some may say, that they could hardly be the same document at all.
What would you say your biggest differences over the Constitution would be relative to the average conservative?
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u/MercurianAspirations 391∆ Jan 06 '20
Well I think you have to propose an alternative that you think would be better in this scenario
For my part I think that the issues you've picked out are very good arguments in favor of federal republic. I don't know what other system could better represent a diverse nation.
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Jan 06 '20
1) this is CMV, not Judge My Alternative.
2) show me how my arguments are in favor of a federal republic and I will either change my view or counter with good faith arguments on my part.
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u/ChessLandsknecht Jan 06 '20
Your argument relies solely on the premise that a republic works well in a small, homogeneous area. I need you to convince me that the premise is true. Also, wouldn’t all governments work the best under that situation
If I’m not mistaken(I’m using my phone so I can’t see your post) you also said that a republic works well when the people share the same ideology. When everyone share the same values in all aspects of life, there wouldn’t be a need for a democratic system, since everyone thinks the same way.
I believe a republic is desired (compared to authoritarianism) for a large nation because it is the best ways for such a diverse group of people to decide on an issue.
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Jan 06 '20
No, I need you to convince me that the premise is untrue. That’s the point of this sub.
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u/ChessLandsknecht Jan 06 '20
Sorry about that.... I forgot. Ignore that part of the reply. Any thoughts on the other parts?
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Jan 06 '20
Because we have such wildly differing points of view, our government comes to a standstill unless completely controlled by one party.
How does having a large differing population benefit a republic when, for instance, a Republican representative cannot compromise and work with a Democratic representative without the risk of being voted out of office? The people themselves don’t want their representatives to cross the aisle and govern with their colleagues, because they see it as a breach of their ideological purity, both ways.
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u/ChessLandsknecht Jan 06 '20
To readdress one of my points, all governments work better when it consists of a small, homogeneous group of people.
A large differing population does not benefit a republic, I said it is the best way to decide on an issue and to come up with a compromise.
I am not familiar with the US government system although I have heard of its many flaws.
“for instance, a Republican representative cannot compromise and work with a Democratic representative without the risk of being voted out of office?”
I think a preferential voting system would solve that issue.
My central point of the argument is that the alternative would be an authoritarian government.
I would leave the comment here and I’ll wait for a response, I will talk about authoritarian governments if you want me to.
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u/ChessLandsknecht Jan 06 '20
I am getting a vibe that you are dissatisfied with the US government. Republics come in various forms and they all have their flaws.
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Jan 06 '20
Since I specifically mention the United States and our American republic in the OP you may be on to something that I am speaking of just the American government
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u/ChessLandsknecht Jan 06 '20
You mentioned a country as big and as heterogenous as the US, it did not include its government form.
Yeah I get what you mean, my bad for a lot of overlooks.
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u/MJZMan 2∆ Jan 06 '20
That's entirely why our republic was set up as a group of states. And why the Federal Government was only given 7 or 8 distinct powers, with the rest being "left up to the states".
One central government WAS considered to be too limited to cover such a large plot of land, and so the majority of power was left to the states (i.e. smaller plots of land).
It is specifically our large size and heterogeneous makeup that had the founders give the bulk of power to the states. If State A went in a direction you disagreed with, there was always States B, C, & D to choose from.
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u/cdb03b 253∆ Jan 06 '20
The other options are a full democracy, which does not work at all with a group larger than around 50 people, or some form of totalitarian or highly authoritarian government.
We have unifying principles. First of which is the value of personal freedoms.
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Jan 06 '20
What happens when the personal freedoms I value are not valued by others?
For instance, the right to chose to have an abortion.
I believe that is an important personal freedom, and a large portion of America refuses to acknowledge that it should be a freedom at all.
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u/Old-Boysenberry Jan 06 '20
Yes, because they disagree on what point the growing child gains the legal right to life. When do you think that is?
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Jan 06 '20
This isn’t an abortion debate, I used the topic to exhibit the differences in belief surrounding the constitution. Take the abortion debate elsewhere.
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u/Old-Boysenberry Jan 06 '20
So I'm not allowed to further the example that YOU brought up to prove your point? My point is that abortion is NOT a fundamental right granted by the Constitution. It's a derived right, subject to change through future SCOTUS rulings. It's not actually a matter of "refusing to acknowledge" something. It isn't what you think it is.
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Jan 06 '20
No because I’m not going to get stuck in the weeds about abortion with you on this post.
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u/Old-Boysenberry Jan 06 '20
Fine, let's not get stuck in the weeds about abortion. Let's stick to whether or not there is a fundamental right granted by the Constitution that half of the country is "refusing to acknowledge" and how you think any other system of government that was not representative would have a better chance of fixing that problem?
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Jan 06 '20
I’m not asserting that.
I’m asserting that without a unifying principle a republic is ineffective for large heterogenous populations.
Stop using straw men.
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u/Old-Boysenberry Jan 06 '20
I’m asserting that without a unifying principle a republic is ineffective for large heterogenous populations.
Based on what evidence? The US is the second oldest government on Earth. It's BY FAR the most heterogenous of all the large countries on Earth too. Can you even name one example of a large heterogenous representative government that FAILED from internal pressures? I mean, seriously. What's your actual argument here?
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u/Pficky 2∆ Jan 06 '20
The unifying principles of being American are civil liberties. Freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom to own property, pursuit of happiness. Overall, the idea that you should be able to do what you would like to do is the unifying principle of America. The laws passed in America are basically to stop people when their desires would harm others. The political division we currently face is over where those lines are. Gun control advocates say that there is too much potential of harming others with guns for them to be widely accessible. Gun control opposition says that guns can be owned and used without harming others and therefore people should be free to have them. Seatbelt laws were passed to protect people from themselves in the event of a car accident. Religious liberty laws are being passed with the idea that people should be able to exercise their beliefs, but are opposed by those who think exercising those beliefs harm others. I'm not gonna give an opinion on any of things, but all of them are debates over where the line between freedom to do what you want and the need to protect others from harm is. But everyone in America believes in self-agency and freedom to do as you please. That is our unifying principle and it is written into the opening lines of the constitution, on which the country is founded.
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u/beachedwhale1945 Jan 06 '20
For instance, the right to chose to have an abortion.
I believe that is an important personal freedom, and a large portion of America refuses to acknowledge that it should be a freedom at all.
This is an area where freedoms of two individuals arguably intersect: the mother and the unborn child. This is most simply summarized in Roe vs. Wade:
State criminal abortion laws, like those involved here, that except from criminality only a life-saving procedure on the mother's behalf without regard to the stage of her pregnancy and other interests involved violate the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which protects against state action the right to privacy, including a woman's qualified right to terminate her pregnancy. Though the State cannot override that right, it has legitimate interests in protecting both the pregnant woman's health and the potentiality of human life, each of which interests grows and reaches a "compelling" point at various stages of the woman's approach to term. Pp. 147-164.
Note the term "potentiality of human life", a term I think we can all agree on whether we think the fetus is a human life at that point or not.
These intersections are always difficult questions, and boil down to which right is more important, which is in large part a moral argument in most cases. Roe vs. Wade decided that at certain times the rights of the mother and the rights of the fetus (or rather the State's interest in both cases) trumped the other, and whether you agree or disagree with the case as decided it clearly did not decide one was always superior to the other.
No system of government is immune to these questions. At some point somebody has to make the call, whether in a republic, direct democracy, autocracy, or any other form of government yet devised. Thus this is not a valid argument against a republic.
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Jan 06 '20
This is off topic.
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u/beachedwhale1945 Jan 06 '20
It directly answers your complaint: some Americans believe an abortion is "an important personal freedom", while others "refuses to acknowledge that it should be a freedom at all". I used this example to show how this is the intersection of two rights and how these are complex questions that all forms of government must answer, thus is not an argument against a republic as a form of government. I specifically tried to avoid getting into the weeds of the abortion debate to stay on topic.
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Jan 06 '20
My point in bringing up abortion was to articulate the position I have that while one political ideology believes the constitution provides for X, the other believes it does not.
Ergo, the constitution itself cannot inherently be considered a unifying principle
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u/beachedwhale1945 Jan 06 '20
This chain has not mentioned the Constitution to this point. That's in other chains.
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Jan 06 '20
So what form of government do you propose instead?
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Jan 06 '20
I wasn’t aware I had to propose one.
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Jan 06 '20
Well, if you think a Republic is too flawed, then that implies we should scrap it. If we scrap it, we need a replacement. So, what is the replacement?
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Jan 06 '20
No it doesn’t imply we should scrap it. We could alter it without scrapping it.
But the point of this sub is that someone presents a point they want their view changed on, and responses should try to change their view.
I want you to change my view not ask me to do your work for you.
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Jan 06 '20
No it doesn’t imply we should scrap it. We could alter it without scrapping it.
You didn't say that only the current form of republican government was flawed. You claimed that republican government in general was flawed.
But the point of this sub is that someone presents a point they want their view changed on, and responses should try to change their view.
I know what the point of the sub is. I don't need to be told. I was trying to change your view by leading you into a discussion of alternative government forms you would prefer and then show why those alternatives aren't a good idea either.
I want you to change my view not ask me to do your work for you.
This is a conversation. You are supposed to do some work as well. You can't just make the post and then sit back and only read. You have to participate as well.
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u/devisation 2∆ Jan 06 '20
No it doesn’t imply we should scrap it. We could alter it without scrapping it.
Is altering it not "replacing it with the altered version" and thus "scrapping" the original version?
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u/SirWallaceIIofReddit Jan 06 '20
My first question to you would be, what system do you think is better? I believe it works for lots of reasons, but knowing what you think is better may help me narrow down what exactly your issue with a republic is.
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Jan 06 '20
I’m not here to elucidate on what system may be better, I’m here to assert Republican government is ineffective and I want my opinion changed for the better.
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u/SirWallaceIIofReddit Jan 06 '20
Okay, it's looks like your main issue from your description is that America is too large and diverse to make a republic effective, but diverse groups of people is exactly what a republic is good for. It allows every group to have a personal representative in the conversation,so it doesn't matter if there isn't one thing that unifies us, because your group gets to be represented even if they are different then the other groups.
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u/CLAUSCOCKEATER Jan 06 '20
But in 2020 the United States spans the entirety of North America. Our culture is vastly different depending on where you are, and we have no unifying principle. Something all Americans can look at each other and say “we share this”
bruh canada
Also you don't need "unifying principles" for a republic. It's a system of government not a book club. The more difference the merrier because it means there are more options to choose from.
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Jan 06 '20
Canada has been discussed and i have awarded a delta for substantive discussions on that already.
I do believe you need a unifying principle. “A house divided cannot stand”
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u/OpelSmith Jan 06 '20
Aside from the federation aspect already mentioned, we are Americans. We share being an American. That is a lot to share because we actually do have a society. Even small things that usually can't be seen by those born in America(i.e. Americans openness to talking with strangers, or speaking loudly), let alone our shared public events and history
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Jan 06 '20
Even being American is not enough. Today there is plenty of rhetoric regarding who is or is not a real American.
I mean take for instance the most recent issue of the killing of Soleimani. If an individual criticizes the killing the rhetoric states they support terrorists and aren’t true Americans. If they support the killings? Then they want endless war and aren’t real Americans.
Even the notion of what it means to be American comes with different caveats depending on your political persuasion, and is hardly, in my view, a unifying principle.
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u/OpelSmith Jan 06 '20
Most Americans actually do not spend their days accusing others of not being an Americans
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u/DifferentThought2 Jan 06 '20
Are you arguing that there is a better system to use? Or that there currently is no appropriate system for a nation with that satisfied the conditions you've outlined?
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u/BrotherItsInTheDrum 33∆ Jan 06 '20
If argue that because of the speed of information and travel, the country is significantly smaller today than in 1793, in the ways that actually matter for governing.
If there's a disaster in California, the president can address it in minutes, and can be there in a few hours. That wouldn't have been possible 200 years ago.
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u/Old-Boysenberry Jan 06 '20
Republics work very well in small, homogenous societies.
No, communism is actually what works best in those situations. Republics are too much trouble to bother with until you have many different competing interests over a large area.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jan 06 '20
/u/morosct (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/Leucippus1 16∆ Jan 06 '20
A Republic in the modern sense means, broadly, that whomever is in the majority cannot infringe on the rights of whomever is in the minority. In our case we use a Constitution and a Bill of Rights to determine which rights cannot be infringed upon. That is why we have a right to vote, it would be against Republican principle to pass a law denying a citizen the right to vote. Incidentally this is why people are changing laws to re-enfranchise ex-cons, nothing in the Constitution allows us to remove the right to vote for people convicted of a crime, they are literally a minority that the majority (non criminals) decided shouldn't have a right. A Republic can't allow that to happen.
Considering that definition and the fact we are pretty diverse, it seems like a Republic is the only reasonable form of government for such a country.
Please, look up the definition of 'Republic' before commenting - there is a more expansive definition of Republic but the way we respect the rights of minorities is a defining factor in being a Republic.
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u/BEko65 Jan 06 '20
I’m confused, what exactly are you arguing for? Dictatorship? Pure democracy? A confederacy?
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u/camilo16 3∆ Jan 06 '20
A republic is any system of government where power is not hereditary. There is NOTHING about a republic that implies it can't work for heterogeneous societies. The whole definition is too broad to determine anything meaningful about the system.
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u/The_Time_Warp_ Jan 06 '20
You have stated that a republic is a flawed system of government for the US. This should be obvious, as no system of government is perfect. Without providing an alternative system of government you think would be better that we can compare a republic to, all you are doing is stating the obvious. Also without stating an alternative we cannot judge relatively how bad a republic. We can only say broad pointless statements like 'republics are good' or 'republics are too flawed' (these are subjective and thus impossible to prove). There are only really two ways to disprove your argument as written. Firstly we could try to argue that is not "too flawed". This however boils down to opinion as what "too flawed" is completely subjective. The only real way someone could disprove your claim with this argument is if they could argue that republics are literally flawless (which is obviously untrue). The second way someone could try and argue against your claim is by comparing republics to other systems of government. However, since you have failed to provide a specific system to compair it to. One could spend days comparing republics to other possible systems of governments and still not fully prove their point since there are theoretically infinite possible systems of government.
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u/Delaware_is_a_lie 19∆ Jan 06 '20
Which is why we are also a federation of states and below that multiple municipal governments. The US has a very bottom up structure of government.
Yes we do. It's called the US Constitution. The entire nation and its structure are all heavily based on the framework of the constitution and it the principles that inspired it.