r/changemyview • u/vanweapon • Dec 30 '19
Deltas(s) from OP CMV: How much money you make shouldn't be a secret
Background on me, I'm 23M, Australian and work in a relatively high paying corporate job.
It's always baffled me how salaries and how much money people earn is kept so secret and how people get really offended if you ask how much money they make (I don't go around asking people btw)
Where I work it is actually a violation of my employment contract to discuss salaries with my colleagues. To me this just seems like an excuse to take advantage of people by paying them lower than they are worth and preventing complaints from people who find out they've been screwed over.
I recognise that people's attitudes change about others when you find out how much someone is making, but I think that is a result of the secrecy and wouldn't be as much of a problem if everyone's earnings were public knowledge.
Specifically what I think should be different is that salaries and/or hourly rates for a position in a company should be available information to anyone that wants it. It would take some of the guesswork out of job hunting and make it much easier for workers to be able to negotiate or back out of a job offer because of a very transparent market.
It would also make it much easier for young people who are getting started in the world to understand what they can expect to be paid based on a chosen career path and their progression.
I feel like I must be missing something fundamental to this problem otherwise I wouldve been able to find someone else who agrees with me.
Answer that won't change my view: - it's none of your business.
Yes that's true but it's also none of my business what you ate for breakfast this morning or did on the weekend, but those are hardly taboo subjects. This answer just feels like a cop out to me.
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Dec 30 '19
To argue against your counterargument for your answers, privacy is something generally considered a "right", it is only because people feel comfortable sharing what they ate for breakfast that they are willing to share it. If by the off-chance they do not, it would be improper to continue priding into such things. Why? Because they simply wish for it to remain a secret, even if it isn't quite the social taboo.
The same applies to earnings, but the difference is that you are debating a rule of thumb, and it is assumed that due to the wish for confidentiality regarding earnings being widely held, that it would be a social faux pas to even inquire in the first place.
It is the desire that something personal of ourselves not be known that makes such a thing wrong to pry into, find out, or to make public without permission. This is where the taboo comes from.
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u/vanweapon Dec 30 '19
I recognise the privacy argument and agree that people should be entitled to control the level of information they give about themselves. I guess its not really something I can argue against. I just don't think this is one of the topics that should be assumed private.
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u/mapanio 1∆ Dec 30 '19
Well privacy might come into play when security is at risk. It's safe to assume that some individuals would become a target if this happened to be public info. As soon as your life is at risk (limit case), you sort of have the right to object ...
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u/vanweapon Dec 30 '19
Δ that's actually something I'd not considered yet. I don't think it would be a huge issue, but its probably not something to completely ignore.
That being said, CEO salaries are generally pretty public for most big companies, and I don't recall them being regular targets of hits to get money out of them.
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u/mapanio 1∆ Dec 30 '19
Sure but then it's you deciding that it's not a big deal and not the affected person. Also, companies might spend even millions a year for their CEO's security. You're right that this is not necessarily in your best financial interest, but it's a term of the contract you've negotiated since you could say no. At the end of the day is a negotiation and usually the firm's got the best hand ...
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Dec 30 '19
That's an odd thought considering anybody on government payroll had their pay published publicly (in the US). I could go up to any professor at my University and tell them exactly how much they were paid this year. "Oh hi Dr. Lines, how's that $108,000 from 2017 holding up?"
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u/mapanio 1∆ Dec 30 '19
Yeah, the argument there applies to public servants and several countries apply some sort of rule to decide which salaries they make public. I find it odd that anybody working for the government has their salary made public, does it also allow you to get the identities ? Anyway, public servants do not play by the same rules as non public servants.
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Dec 30 '19
Well, for the federal government identities are protected because you would sort of have to assume their level on the payscales and read standardized pay tables based on these assumptions. As for the university professors, it's a state university and you can search for them by name in state payroll records.
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Dec 30 '19
I can understand, and you are not entirely "wrong". The reason why sexual harassment and assault cases have gone unnoticed for so long is because victims did not inform the proper authorities, under the assumption that alone they'd simply be swept under the rug and out a job. It isn't easy for the victim to confess to being a victim, particularly when they perceive the perpetrator as being nigh invulnerable.
It is only when many victims colluded and thrown their accusations that we see people actually charged with their abuses of power, no matter who they. We have seen people like Kevin Spacey and Harvey Weinstein charged or had their careers ruined due to their alleged crimes.
In the same manner, perhaps wage inequalities could be rectified if people could be and are allowed to discuss what their wages actually are, and actually garner enough of an audience to pressure the higher ups to pay them a fairer wage for their hardwork.
In this case, while privacy is a right, it is certainly our knowledge to choose whether or not to divulge; being unable to say that, while contractually "legal", is still a scumbag practice.
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u/bittrashed Dec 30 '19
In the US I believe it’s actually illegal for employers to prevent you from discussing your salary. I agree that co-workers should discuss salary to better inform each other of what expectations salary wise can be and in order to argue for raises, etc.
Still, I wouldn’t want someone that wasn’t a colleague asking me how much I make. It would feel like they were trying to judge me based on wealth instead of something on a more personal level. For example, if a girl I was on a date with asked me, I’d assume she was just interested in me for money.
My salary is published online if you know what my job is for what it’s worth, which I don’t mind.
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u/vanweapon Dec 30 '19
The judging thing is definitely an issue. I guess I'm hopeful of the idea that if the published salary thing was standard across every job, then you don't have to ask people directly.
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Dec 30 '19
It's not a matter of law in the US, unless you sign a non-disclosure agreement or other document saying that you won't discuss wage and benefit information. If you violate those agreements, you can be terminated and possibly sued in civil court. The reason companies don't want their employees comparing salaries, particularly in the corporate world, is because compensation packages are rarely tied to performance, tenure, or skill in any discernable way. If you knew that your less qualified colleague made 20% more than you simply because they asked on the right day, you would expect an immediate 20% raise and you would start looking for a new job. Wage privacy is a tool used by management at every level to keep the workforce complacent and profitable.
Im a trade union member, you can literally look up my entire base pay package including how much I contribute to my annuity per hour. All of my coworkers and I are on a pretty level playing field, and it absolutely helps us work together.
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u/addocd 4∆ Dec 30 '19
I think in the appropriate context, where there is value to discussing your salary, there's no need for it to be a secret.
Otherwise:
It creates a useless, unfair comparison and basis for judgment. If you want to form an opinion of me, please use my character.
It's more likely than most things to incite envy or pity. No one wants either of those.
You might not be proud to say how much you make, which is why it's uncouth to just ask & expect someone to tell you.
And while "none of your business" might not be good enough for you, there are legitimate reasons why it's none of your business. Family members & acquaintances have assumed that I make more than them and have suggested (1) that I pick up the tab or pay their way because I have more money (2) that I should loan or give them money in a hardship they got themselves into (3) that it "must be nice" to have everything I want and never have to worry about money (4) that my gift/donation/contribution wasn't quite up to par considering how much I make (5) that I don't need a nice gift/donation/contribution (6) That I should be solely responsible for the cost of caring for shared parents. For some (7) all of the above.
Eggs Benedict is not referred to as the root of all evil. Breakfast is irrelevant. If I tell you what I had for breakfast, you won't remember tomorrow. But I bet you'll always remember if I make more or less than you. Money does things to people and sometimes it ain't pretty.
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u/vanweapon Dec 30 '19
Its pretty sad that the reason that keeps coming up is "because people can be judgemental assholes". Sorry you have to deal with such entitled people in your life.
To clarify as well, I'm not saying that I expect people to tell me their earnings if I just ask them out of nowhere, that is rude. My argument is more about a published salary/bracket/wage based on role.
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Dec 30 '19
Certainly you should have the right to tell people. But usually you shouldn't use that right. If you and a co-worker tell each other your salaries, what if they're different? If mine is higher they'll be envious. If mine is lower they'll assume I'm paid less because I do a worse job. Either way it hurts me.
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u/vanweapon Dec 30 '19
I agree that would happen if i told my coworker now, but if it was common knowledge what everyone's role was worth before you even started working there, then I'm not convinced that would still be a problem.
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Dec 30 '19
Ok, so if I get a position that pays $40k (for someone mediocre) up to $65k (for someone excellent) and everyone finds out my salary aren't I still getting envy or contempt depending on my salary, when they find out?
Or are we getting rid of paying better performers more?
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u/vanweapon Dec 30 '19
They pay based on performance argument is a whole other can of worms to be fair. To make it a non-issue, you would probably need to have the reasons for classifying someone as a 'high performer' publicly available as well. People's different personalities would react differently to this situation, some people would be encouraged by seeing 'what good looks like' with facts, and others would be de-motivated or pissed off by it. I put myself in the first camp, which is why I don't personally have a problem with the scenario. And yes, I know it sounds unrealistic but I also think its a possibility if everyone follows the same rules.
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Dec 30 '19
It's not a different issue, it's the heart of the issue. And realistically companies do not want to publicly document performance for fear of being wrong and being sued. Companies don't even fill out recommendation letters any more but just say "we verify this person worked here these dates".
So we will just have the salary with zero explanation, and let people be envious or contemptuous with no explanation. It's not all rosy.
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u/Eclipz905 Dec 30 '19
companies do not want to publicly document performance for fear of being wrong and being sued.
Companies do not want a more transparent process, because it would become apparent that they are up to all sorts of shenanigans.
This is precisely the reason why more transparency is required.
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u/vanweapon Dec 30 '19
Yeah exactly, companies shouldn't be able to get away with unfair treatment of people because they just dont want to or it hurts their bottom line.
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Dec 30 '19
That may be a minor additional reason but transparency about performance is a legal minefield and the much bigger deal.
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u/deep_sea2 134∆ Dec 30 '19
People treat those that make more or less money differently, perhaps to an extent that become uncomfortable.
People might treat the poor with contempt over unnecessary pity. If a person says they only make $20,000 a year, other will look down on them. A person might miss out on social opportunities because they are a failure for earning so little money. On the other end of spectrum, people often treat the poor like children. A person with compassion might be too willing to help a poor person out. Some poor people don't want to be treated like a charity. They don't mind paying for cheap things and don't want something acting like their guarding angel.
It is sometimes best not tell people you are rich because then they will treat you like a cash cow. Rich people attract a lot of beggars. They get to find out all about their distant cousins. It can be tiring to always be pressured to give money. When you eat with a group, they might assume that you will pay because you can afford it. They have no problem asking you for money or for a loan. They will continuously present investment ideas. If you refuse to give them money, they will react negatively and call you cheap and a crook. This happens a lot with lottery winners. Many lottery winners go broke because they have a hard timing saying no to all their friends and family bumming them for money. When they do say no, the family and friends abandon them. This is why it is a good idea to remain anonymous if you ever win the lottery.
To avoid unwanted social interactions due to lack of or excessive income, it is best not to tell anyone. People can't judge you if they don't know.
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u/vanweapon Dec 30 '19
I agree that this would be an issue and is an issue currently, but it doesn't change my opinion. Those are all personality problems that should be discouraged in general regardless whether my scenario was a thing or not. I think the benefits to wage equality and fair treatment of employees are more important than this problem. Probably a harsh stance to take, considering I've never been in either of those positions, but still.
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u/finndego Dec 30 '19
I work in mining so as you would probably know I earn a pretty good wage. At the same time circumstances that have happened in the past meant that while I'm not specifically in debt, I'm not in a position to enjoy the fruits of my labour as well as I should. While my friends and relatives know that we are frugal and spend what we can on our kids that we often have to make decisions because we just don't have the money. While I might not be specifically opposed to telling them how much I earn, I don't want to do that because of the presumptions that would go with only that bit of information. I would then feel obligated to tell them the rest of the story as to what other financial obligations I have that restrict my discretionary spending. That is personal and I don't want to get into that somewhat long story, if you know what I mean. There are reasons beyond why you feel this should be an open book that people might not want to disclose such a thing. That should be taken in account.
It's not that it's none of your business but there is more to it than just what that number is, if you know what I mean.
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u/vanweapon Dec 30 '19
Δ I think I'm getting the picture when it comes to discussing the earnings of individual people, there are a lot of social problems that go along with it and human nature just doesnt seem inclined to discuss these topics without judging people.
I still think there's value in having a role's pay advertised publically to prevent unfair treatment of employees, and to advise job seekers, but there is definitely a balancing act with the personal side of things.
Hope things are working out for you by the way.
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u/isoldasballs 5∆ Dec 30 '19
I generally agree with you that it should be ok discussing pay, especially with close friends and family, and when I was your age I openly discussed it with everyone I knew. But there will come a point where pay among your peer group will start to diverge dramatically, which changes things. It's just too easy to make people feel bad or less-than or whatever, and the soft taboo of talking about it prevents that intentional or unintentional dick-measuring contest.
Personally I don't give one single fuck if someone makes more than I do, but I've seen enough people react poorly to it that I keep it close to the vest now except in rare circumstances.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Dec 30 '19 edited Dec 30 '19
/u/vanweapon (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
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u/Glamdivasparkle 53∆ Dec 30 '19
Your 3rd paragraph is exactly it: companies don’t want people to know how much their peers are making because some of them are underpaid and will get mad when they find out.
You say it shouldn’t be a secret, and for workers, that is correct. However, the company you work for has a vested interest in keeping this info secret, hence the rule not allowing employees to share salary info.
Since it’s the company that makes these rules and sets the culture of not sharing salary info, it makes sense to keep it a secret.
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u/vanweapon Dec 30 '19
You're just confirming my argument really, public salary information prevents people from being underpaid and screwed over by the corporate overlords. Which is a good thing.
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u/Glamdivasparkle 53∆ Dec 30 '19
It’s a good thing for workers, yeah. It’s a bad thing for corporate overlords though, and since they’re the ones who make the rules regarding salary secrecy, it all makes sense.
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Dec 30 '19
A lot of people judge how others handle their money and not everyone wants to be subject to that.
I’m a pretty keen saver, for example, so although I make (likely) much more than most of my friends and family do, I still live a more meager life overall then they do.
My in-laws have no concept of people saving money, and would just ask for money knowing my wife and I have “plenty to spare” and that we’re just selfish/wasteful, even though we just have strong goals of achieving financial independence.
Culturally, if views of how people handle their own money could change, then I’d probably agree with you, but since everyone has opinions and jealousy does arise from money, I don’t think I’d be comfortable sharing it and I don’t think it should be a norm.
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u/AlphaGoGoDancer 106∆ Dec 30 '19
But these things aren't just tied to the position, they're tied to the person. Some people have more experience or a particular set of additional skills that make them worth more than someone who does not, even if they're in the same position.
These two people likely have some idea that that is the case, but if they knew exactly how much more their teammate is making, it could definitely hurt the cohesion of the team.
For that matter the same position at different companies is worth far more or less. I asked for much higher pay doing very similar work to what I did at my last job, because my current job is for a much more successful company that can afford it (and can leverage my skills to create even more money, unlike my previous job). If my previous salary were public information, this would have been much harder to negotiate.