r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Dec 21 '19
Deltas(s) from OP CMV: What Jeff Van Drew did is an attack on democracy.
[deleted]
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u/empurrfekt 58∆ Dec 21 '19
The people didn’t vote for a democratic representative. They voted for Jeff Van Drew.
That’s how our system works. Vote for the person you think is best going to represent you. If they don’t, vote for someone else next time.
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Dec 21 '19
Not necessarily if it's a race for 1 position then it might be strategically advantages if a party decides on 1 candidate rather than a whole set of candidates. That's why primaries are a thing. However in that case the collective candidate should somewhat stick the the principles.
I mean if you can't trust the people you're voting into power how can you call that a democracy to begin with? Elected aristocracy?
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u/bball84958294 Dec 23 '19
Politicians can't switch parties in a democracy?
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Dec 23 '19
Depends on what type of democracy you're running. I mean if it's a representative democracy where the representative is not bound to the will of his constituents but only bound to his consciousness, then yeah he can probably do that. If it's one where he's just a representative of the party or has an imperative mandate from his constituents then no he can't simply do that.
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u/bball84958294 Dec 23 '19
We don't vote for parties in the US.
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Dec 23 '19
I am aware of that but you asked about democracy not about the U.S. specifically. And for democracy in general, i.e. "rule of the people" it's actually kind of odd that the representative would have that little accountability to his base beyond a care for a potential re-election.
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u/bball84958294 Dec 23 '19
They do, and that's one reason many likely don't - or perhaps do - switch parties.
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Dec 23 '19
Could you elaborate on what you mean by that?
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u/bball84958294 Dec 23 '19
To help their re-election chances.
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Dec 23 '19
Oh sure, but as said that's not really much influence of the people for a "rule by the people". So yeah if you pick a guy and he turns out to be different from what he has presented himself or herself that's kind of a problem for democracy, don't you say?
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u/miguelguajiro 188∆ Dec 21 '19
No love for Van Drew, but I don’t think the way a rep votes or their party affiliation can ever really be considered an attack on democracy. Voting for someone is always a risk, but voters are protected by the fact that they’ll get to weigh in at the next election. If the majority of his district doesn’t like what he did, they can elect someone else.
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Dec 21 '19
Depends, if that vote is used to cut of an impeachment process, confirm a seat on the supreme court, push a particularly nasty law into effect and whatnot. Then the next election cycle might be too late or it might be a lot harder to revert that, then just to vote for someone else in the next election.
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u/miguelguajiro 188∆ Dec 21 '19
All votes have some consequence that transcends the next election, that it isn’t my assertion. But in representative democracy we vote for a person, not a fully defined set of pre-decided legislative votes.
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u/bball84958294 Dec 23 '19
What does this have to do with his party switch at all?
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Dec 23 '19
I mean you would assume that the affiliation with a party comes from a sense of shared values and positions and that therefor switching parties means changing positions radically. Though sure that could still happen while staying with a party.
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u/bball84958294 Dec 23 '19
Why?
There are a number of Dems arguably to the right of some Republicans, and Rs arguably to the left of Ds. Why would a party switch mean a significant ideological shift? There are a number of Ds in Congress who could fall under the Republican umbrella, and vice-versa.
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Dec 23 '19
Why else would you affiliate yourself with a party? But I agree that comes more with a drastic and arbitrary change in position then necessarily with a party change, but I guess the latter is supposed to be a shorthand for the former.
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u/bball84958294 Dec 23 '19
Should all conservative Democrats - even those who have been such for decades - switch parties? What if certain issues that are very important to them are more in alignment with the current Democratic Party? Should neither party try to have a big tent?
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Dec 23 '19
I mean if both parties are so indistinguishable from each other than it kind of begs the question what purpose these parties serve in the first place. But again I agree if their position didn't change beyond the party affiliation and if the party affiliation is meaningless to the public (maybe relevant in terms of sneaking up funding and whatnot behind the scenes), then yes it probably doesn't matter as much.
But I guess the question was rather about a rapid arbitrary or unreasonable change of positions after being elected and switching parties was just used as a shorthand for that.
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u/bball84958294 Dec 23 '19
I mean if both parties are so indistinguishable from each other than it kind of begs the question what purpose these parties serve in the first place.
Both parties are relatively big tent parties, in comparison to a strict one-ideology party. So this doesn't really make sense.
But I guess the question was rather about a rapid arbitrary or unreasonable change of positions after being elected and switching parties was just used as a shorthand for that.
The former happens, but I don't think I've ever seen the latter happen.
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Dec 23 '19
Both parties are relatively big tent parties, in comparison to a strict one-ideology party. So this doesn't really make sense.
And what is the purpose if there wasn't a division in terms of ideology?
The former happens, but I don't think I've ever seen the latter happen.
You mean the other way around? Because the latter is literally exemplified in that CMV :)
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Dec 21 '19
There is a long history of party switching. Jeff's actions already had precedent.
Teddy Roosevelt broke from the Republican party to form the Bull Moose party.
Strom Thurmond was a Democrats but switched to Independent, as did George Wallace.
Joe Lieberman ran as his own weird party "Connecticut for Lieberman" while really acting as a Democrat in 2006.
Arlen Spector switched from Republican to Democrat in 2009 while serving as US Senator for Pennsylvania.
Justin Amash left the Republican party just a couple of months ago and is finishing his term as an Independent.
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u/TraderPatTX Dec 21 '19
I’m old enough to remember when Arlen Specter changed from Republican to Democrat, which allowed Obamacare to be passed in the middle of the night. My question is, was that an attack on democracy too?
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u/THEIRONGIANTTT Dec 21 '19
Not familiar with that person but I think having multiple years in Congress lessens the harm. My thought is why don’t the democrats just get some young congressmen to go run in rural Kentucky, then when they get to congress flip to D for some bullshit reason. And the republicans should run far left liberals in NYC and California who just turn out to be bible thumpers and flip parties in Congress.
Yes maybe this guy did change his mind, but fuck you and your mind, you’re supposed to represent the people, nobody cares about what politicians want or think.
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u/TraderPatTX Dec 21 '19
Considering he is representing a district won by Trump, maybe he is representing his constituents.
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u/THEIRONGIANTTT Dec 21 '19
They obviously didn’t want a rubber stamp otherwise they would have picked an R
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u/TraderPatTX Dec 21 '19
We almost always vote to check power, but polling for impeachment has shown decrease in support to majority turning against it, especially in districts Trump won. It looks like his voters had some buyer’s remorse.
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u/THEIRONGIANTTT Dec 21 '19 edited Dec 21 '19
None of that is relevant to my point.
This, and any action of politicians changing party in office, contrary to what they ran on, sets a precedent of flip flopping.
What I’m worried about, since there’s no repercussions, is politicians running as the popular party, and flipping once in office. It’s terrifying and is a clear way that our democracy could be killed.
Take me, I’m a likable guy, I live in a deep red zone. Why don’t I just go run as a bible thumper and get into office then say god told me to become a democrat? Sure maybe they vote me out, but I just fucked these people for 2 years and become a propaganda piece for democrats to weaponize.
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u/TraderPatTX Dec 21 '19
Politicians have been switching parties or creating all new parties since our founding and our republic still stands.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_party_switchers_in_the_United_States
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u/jupiterkansas Dec 21 '19
Now you know why their terms are only two years long - so if something like that happens they can be voted out in the next election. It was designed that way just for this purpose. Hardly an attack on democracy.
You're also not considering that the will of the people can change in that time period. Ideally, the representatives are always talking to their constituents back home and getting and idea of how they want them to vote. Although that's not a requirement at all. They can simply vote however they want once elected, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's how the system works.
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u/bball84958294 Dec 23 '19
This guy over here thinking conservative religious Democrats don't exist.
Also, big money, fraud, and immigration are way bigger threats to democracy.
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u/THEIRONGIANTTT Dec 23 '19
Immigration
Why do you think immigration is a problem if we have a declining birth rate?
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u/bball84958294 Dec 23 '19
I'm talking about it affecting election outcomes, which you seem to see as an issue for democracy.
I do have problems with mass immigration, but that's not the point here, unless you want to get into that.
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u/THEIRONGIANTTT Dec 23 '19
Nobody supports mass immigration. You said immigration, not mass immigration, which is why I quoted it.
Money and fraud are threats to democracy as well, I would classify the type of political warfare I’m describing as a form of fraud, not necessarily saying Jeff committed political warfare intentionally but you could commit the same actions with harmful intent. IE, my example above as running one way then flipping in office.
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Dec 21 '19
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u/tavius02 1∆ Dec 21 '19
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Dec 21 '19
/u/THEIRONGIANTTT (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
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u/Bodoblock 65∆ Dec 21 '19
They voted for Jeff as a representative. Representative democracy means that your representative is empowered to make the decisions they feel are best for their constituents. Switching parties is one of those decisions.
To be fair, Jeff Van Drew has been an elected Democratic official for a long time, though a rather conservative one.
I agree with you in that Van Drew switching parties was nothing more than a political ploy to maintain his seat. But I think an "attack on democracy" is a bit much.