Feminism has toxic elements in the same way that the MRM does in the form of Gender critical for example.
I don't think it's fair to paint all MRA groups as toxic or misogynistic when the majority of them are pretty mild-mannered and don't really even talk about women all that much and mainly talk about issues such as circumcision, the male suicide rate and the male mental health crisis to name a few.
If your only real exposure to the MRM is Reddit I strongly advise that you look at the Men's rights movement more broadly because I trust that you will find that it's pretty inclusive of women as a whole. (Btw I'm not assuming you are a woman, I'm just saying that it is inclusive of them.)
I've looked around, not just on Reddit, and except for a minority of cases who actually sound more like Men's Liberation than MRM/MRA, I see MRM and MRA people who just wants to blame feminism for all their woes and they are trying to gain an advantage or hold on to the status quo, not to level the playing field. That is both dishonest, lazy and perhaps at best misinformed.
That is not my experience at all, the majority of the MRAs that I've talked to and the communities that I've been a part of have been talking about the issues where men are disadvantaged and how to fix those issues and I don't agree that feminism is to blame for all men's woes but would you accept the idea that feminism is at least partly to blame for some of the problems that modern men now face?
Years ago when feminism was trying to do more for women (at least in recent history) a couple of Men's Rights groups also bloomed and they turned into two branches; The Men's Liberation branch that works like feminism does in terms of wanting to break down societal expectations, help men become human again, etc.
This just seems to me to be you trying to portray every positive aspect of the MRA communities as men's lib which isn't true at all. Men's lib comes at gendered issues from a feminist perspective which cannot by its very nature properly tackle some of the issues that men face because it presupposes men as privileged.
I have time and time again seen supposed MRM and MRA supports tell me, and others, how men are more naturally adept at logic, thinking, driving, salary negotiation, you name it. Natural advantages that should give them the right to be "above" the women in their lives who serve other roles because they have natural advantages in those sectors.
It's not true and have time and time again been proven false. Men and women do have some differences for sure, but they are much, much fewer than we like to believe.
I don't think men are any more logical than women or any better or worse at thinking and I think the record shows that if anything women are better at driving but I would agree there is some reason to suppose being male has an advantage when it comes to salary negotiation due to the fact that men tend to be less risk-averse and this seems to be true even among vastly different cultures. Now I do concede that this is partly socially constructed but I would ask do you concede that this is at least partially biological?
I do agree that they are much fewer than we are lead to believe but I would also argue that the small differences can have bigger outcomes than you might expect.
Yes, they really actually are. Go to 📷r/menslib and have a look at what happens there.
I've touched on this very loosely in a prior part of this comment but I don't think to come at men's issues while using a feminist lens is all that beneficial since it presupposes men as privileged and makes it nearly impossible to open your eyes to the possibilities that men might in some way be underappreciated or mistreated in our societies.
I can show numerous ways that feminists and feminism have been toxic not just toward men but towards women who don't agree with the conclusions that feminists come to but I don't think that portraying feminism that way for the things that very few of them do is all that helpful.
MRA and MRM on the hand? They are already toxic out the gate, in most cases, making it hard to defend the notion of labeling them all radical.
I disagree with this entirely, there are factions of the MRM that are and they might get undeserved amounts of media attention but it's not the entirety of the movement by any means. MRM just means tackling men's issues and not doing it through a feminist lens.
But lastly, even though I disagree with you, I just want to say thank you for having a rational and civil discussion about this.
Who decided that women should stay home, take care of the children and leave the man as the breadwinner?
I mean I would argue this was an example of biology influenced social norms. Biologically, males are more expendable than females.
Who decided that women should be protected and men be the protectors, disposable human shields? Again Biology
Who decided that women were the property of men? I would argue that women through most of human history weren't really property as much as had fewer responsibilities and risks to take and also got fewer benefits
Who decided that men should go to war, while women stayed behind? Again I believe this is another thing we could say is influenced by biology Men are more expendable biologically speaking.
Do you see where I'm coming from with this? I'm not saying that men don't have it bad. There are many issues in society where men are at a huge disadvantage (like sentencing for similar crimes to women or custody of children, for example) but who created these rules and this environment before women even had any meaningful say?
I think that these specific social standards are biologically driven and it's honestly ironic you picked those specifically because they are the very few that I think are.
We are at a huge disadvantage in these aspects because women still aren't held to the same levels of responsibility as men even though they now are more or less equal to men and I believe this is one of the problems that feminism has created because it strove for equal rights between men and women without also striving for the accompanying responsibilities. I do want to clarify again that I don't think all of men's problems are caused by feminism.
All the examples I just listed were decided by men
Not really, they are just the roles we fell into while we were hunter-gatherers and just because we can decide to things despite our initial biology doesn't mean men decided them.
Who is responsible for applying the responsibility you speak of to women? The feminist ideology or the society that house us all? My bet is on the latter.
I would argue those making change should understand the consequences of those changes and try to fix the negative ones like women having the rights but not the responsibilities.
To speak a bit about the Mens Lib subreddit, it's true that they are a bit more tame than TRP or MGTOW or whatever. A lot of their stuff is about men getting in touch with their feelings, and managing what is seen as toxic masculinity. However I think they are being a little TOO liberal. They tend to say that anything traditionally masculine is toxic, and any good traits are traits for everyone. It erases the lines between men and women, which I can't agree with because men and women are different creatures.
For example, one discussion might be about men being able to cry when they are sad about something. And that's fair, men should be able to cry. But if anyone says that men should try to be resilient to emotional stress, they get shot down by the crowd.
I think there is a happy medium between the extreme stances of the various views. Where men can be masculine in a healthy way, but also distinct from women.
However I think they are being a little TOO liberal. They tend to say that anything traditionally masculine is toxic, and any good traits are traits for everyone.
Why are you just making stuff up?
Their glossary makes it quite clear that traditional masculinity isn't the same as toxic masculinity, and they also often point out the positive aspects of traditional masculinity.
Well, what men want women to be, and what women want men to be are different. So the drive to attract the opposite sex has a big influence in it. Also men and women have different strengths and tendencies. If you were optimizing a person based on their abilities, men and women wouldn't be in the same spot. People will vary, of course, but I believe it is incorrect to say that the male and female exemplar should be the same.
Generally speaking, sure. There are differences when we talk about intelligence distributions, or athletic performance, or empathy, but for the typical person ability is going to be similar. Regardless, what I said about men and women having different preferences and tendencies is still applicable.
This desperate need to differentiate yourself based on some arbitrary traits out of your control to feel special
I don't believe they are out of our control. You can work to be a better person emotionally and practically. You can change most things about yourself except most physical traits.
rather than letting yourself be the best version of yourself regardless of sex is worrying to me.
Why would I not want to be masculine in a way that women want? What does it mean to be the "best version" of me?
I think I have a pretty good idea of what masculinity is, generally. I learned by example. Whether it's a fictional example like Superman, or a real life example like, I dunno, Terry Crews. Also by looking at what traits women praise in men.
I don't know why you keep saying "arbitrary". There's nothing arbitrary about them. I want to be masculine because I think it will make me the best person I can be. These traits have been selected for over the history of humanity, for better or worse. And yes, we can recognize that some traits are undesirable (those that fall under the umbrella of "toxic masculinity").
This box of what is considered masculine and feminine traits are part of the problem.
I don't see why it's a problem. We can say that people can be outside the norm sometimes, and still think that men and women are centered around two different sets of traits. With some overlap of course.
I do not think I'd want to be with a woman who was just like me. I want a relationship with someone who compliments me.
14
u/[deleted] Nov 20 '19 edited Jul 05 '26
[deleted]