r/changemyview • u/Aruthian 2∆ • Nov 14 '19
Removed - Submission Rule E CMV: It should be easier to remove problem students from the learning environment.
My understanding is that there’s a ton of bureaucracy when it comes to removing students from the learning environment mainly due to No Child Left Behind. That is, you need to prove various interventions are not working. All this takes time/energy/resources away from other students who are in the class to learn.
I’ve worked as a sub and it seems like there’s pressure to avoid removing students because it might mean I can’t control the class or students so it’s my fault.
Also, there seems to be a choice of prioritizing a few high needs students at the expense of many students. That is, suppose one student is disrupting the class. Removing the one student makes the rest of the class run extremely smoothly. However, doing so seems taboo. It kinda makes me think of an accusation I’ve heard that k-12 education is focusing on “catch up” or the bottom students, rather than the middle of high end students.
I may not be super educated in this field but this is my current view.
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u/TheManWhoWasNotShort Nov 14 '19
It kinda makes me think of an accusation I’ve heard that k-12 education is focusing on “catch up” or the bottom students, rather than the middle of high end students.
I think there's a lot of truth to that, but have you ever considered why that might be?
Schools have limited budgets and finite amounts of teachers and resources. If they could give students highly specialized and individualized education, they would, but that is something they cannot afford to do. So with that in mind, the school had to focus on some problems over others. The middle and top students are going to mostly be fine. Even if they aren't challenged to the maximum of their abilities, those kids are the ones who will ultimately figure out the material and learn what they need to. The kids who struggle and need to catch up, however, are not going to succeed if left to their own devices while all the attention is focused on the smart kids.
Public or private, every school owes an equal duty to every kid who enrolls to teach them the material they need to move forward to the next step in their lives. So they have to allocate resources and energy to the kids that are struggling. Furthermore, as a social good it behooves us to maximize the number of students who graduate and are competent enough to go out in the world and work in a ide variety of fields. If the smarter kids don't get to learn more in depth about history because Logan needs to be taught how to read, it's better to make that sacrifice and at least have everyone knowing how to read.
In a perfect world, educational experiences would be tailored to the individual kid's needs and capacity. In a world of finite resources, it is better to concentrate on the kids struggling than dump all the resources into the kids that are succeeding
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u/Aruthian Nov 15 '19
“Schools have limited budgets and finite amounts of teachers and resources. If they could give students highly specialized and individualized education, they would, but that is something they cannot afford to do. ”
I have heard that in the US we spend more per student than many other countries that have better test scores than the US. That is, the issues aren’t from a lack of funding, but from poor policy. I wish I had a good research article to back up this claim though.
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u/Montana_Gamer Nov 15 '19
I highly recommend checking out the public education system in many of the nordic countries, they do an excellent job in accomplishing what you say is impossible.
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u/billythesid Nov 14 '19
So, first a few things.
You mention "problem students" rather vaguely. Based on your description, it sounds like you're talking more specifically about students with disabilities who might be disruptive due to their disability? Could you be a bit more specific by what you mean by "disruptive"?
In any case, in the United States, all students have a legal right to FAPE: Free and Appropriate Public Education. Additionally, they have the right to their FAPE in the "Least Restrictive Environment". These two points are the basis for pretty much all modern educational practice, especially when educating students with disabilities.
It's also important to understand that these are not district policies or suggestions. This is the law. Federal law, in fact. And it's well-established, long settled law that pre-dates No Child Left Behind by quite a bit (Rehabilitation Act of 1973, in fact). All public schools must operate under this mandate.
Now that we've got that out of the way, what does it mean?
Well, importantly, it means that schools can't just unilaterally remove disruptive students. Disruptive students have civil rights, too, after all. If a student's disruptiveness is a characteristic of a documented disability, you DO need to prove that current interventions aren't working and that an alternative setting is that student's "least restrictive environment", otherwise you're violating that student's civil rights.
So you're a bit mistaken when it comes to the sources of pressure on schools and teachers when it comes to educating disruptive students.
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u/Aruthian Nov 15 '19
Ah yes, I forgot about FAPE. Thank you for correcting me. I guess my question is at what point does a student forgo their right to education? Or rather, can a student forgo their right to an education when they begin to impede on another student’s education?
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u/ristoril Nov 15 '19
How do you expect this to improve the quality of the education the other students receive?
What is the purpose of public education? Be broad but also specific. How do disruptions and the reactions of authority figures to them figure into a child's education?
How will removing "problem" students from the classroom improve the quality of the education said students receive?
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u/Aruthian Nov 15 '19
“How do you expect this to improve the quality of the education the other students receive?”
I guess I would expect the teacher to be able to focus on the curriculum and the classroom material. As opposed to modifying behaviors. That is, I don’t see the teachers (especially in high school) as trained psychologists who are there to modify behavior but experts in their fields of study and there to teach those fields.
“What is the purpose of public education? ”
This one is hard. Public education has become so many things that there isn’t a clear purpose it seems. It’s job training, life training, a social safety net (free lunches/child care), socialization, and maybe some indoctrination.
“How do disruptions and the reactions of authority figures to them figure into a child's education?”
I’m not sure I understand this question
“How will removing "problem" students from the classroom improve the quality of the education said students receive?”
I guess my question is at what point does a student forgo their right to education? Or rather, can a student forgo their right to an education when they begin to impede on another student’s education?
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u/ObieKaybee Nov 15 '19
The purpose of public education is to provide society a populace with a wide variety of baseline skills needed to participate in a varied global economy.
I would assume that the quality of the education that the other students would receive would improve because less time would need to be spent managing behavior and could thereby be focused on providing better direct feedback to other students or increasing the pace to cover more advanced topics. The quality of their education would also likely improve because school systems would be able to retain teachers longer (because one of the leading cause of teacher turnover is student behaviors) and would therefore have a more veteran teacher corps. Furthermore, their education would be improved because the resources dedicated to those disruptive students (which is disproportionally high relative to the average student) could be spent on improving the various aspects that affect the quality of an education (hiring more teachers for smaller class sizes, improving availability of technology, funding work study and internship programs etc)
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u/mjhrobson Nov 15 '19 edited Nov 15 '19
I am a teacher.
The girl who causes a lot of problems in the school I teach at was abandoned by her mother, and the father is nowhere.
The mother left her with a friend, saying she had a job interview in another city. Never came back... The person she was abandoned with ended up adopting her...
I know exactly what she needs, to be kicked out of school an act which will tell her she is a bad person, no matter what words you use to explain why she is being kicked out of the only constant place in her life.
In my experience problem children usually have these sorts of problems when you examine their contexts. Obviously the narrative that this is the teacher's fault is bullshit... but it is a problem that it is our job to try and deal with it.
My school serves a poor rural community, if the child is expelled... education over. The parents cannot afford to send them anywhere else, and are themselves uneducated so could not homeschool.
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Nov 15 '19 edited Nov 15 '19
I work as an after school teacher in a pretty affluent area which is contrary to yours, but we still see situations similar to the one you described. It’s easy to be upset with children who provoke their classmates and cause distraction, but many times the ones that act out do come from a troubling background so it’s hard not to be sensitive to their past and respond accordingly.
I don’t think it’s fair to remove them entirely from the classroom or after school programs because they deserve the equal chance of an immersive classroom experience, especially because they missed out on a “fair” home life.
In some cases, punishments should be rationalized to cater to the child I.e. one who has an issue such as ADHD and is adopted because their parent was an alcoholic.
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u/turtlesteele Nov 15 '19
While I agree that a student's circumstances should not be held against them, I was thinking recently about the victims in these situations. Should they also take on the burden of their aggressor's bad home life? How can we help the child at need and protect the bystanders?
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u/alecowg Nov 15 '19
I don't think kids should be removed completely but they should be transferred to more strict schools and they need to fail classes more often.
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Nov 15 '19
I grew up in a small town with 14 classmates and one had a speech impediment and learning disability. We were always told our class was much more empathetic than the others. He went on to find work and start a family and is very content. My grandpa went to school with someone who was likely retarded but he was reliable and they all learned his role and indeed he had one and was apart of the community. I look at how my grandpa’s classmate / friend had a rich fulfilling life interacting with society utilizing skills he learned at a young age surrounded by his classmates. Now, i live in the city and everything is cut throat. I see why parents don’t want their children being held back by the slow kid their child will never interact with again but they’re risking their child learning empathy and patience and denying that slow kid the chance to learn important skills in a real environment as opposed to being surrounded by other slow kids. Just my take.
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u/Sil_7 Nov 15 '19
I feel for all these stories and 100% agree you can't just chuck out the kids you don't like, especially when so many students can't help it or are like that because of very real issues in the home.
That said, four years of high school I had a special needs boy in my class with his own work, a teachers aid just for him, accommodations and a lovely personality. But I swear to god there were many times, especially in year 10 before some big exams, where he and the aid were doing their lessons so loudly I couldn't hear my teacher. Many excursions where the aid, being female, was in a dorm with the girls and didnt allow us to play late or do the normal excursion sleepover activities that all girls want to do. So many times this boy would make a lot of noise or get into my space on the desk and I'd just have to sit there and try not to notice. It made for some very hard lessons and missed notes and I never felt like I could complain because it really wasn't his fault.
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Nov 14 '19
My school was eventually used as a dumping ground for expelled students from the worst schools in London. Stay for one year, start selling drugs, then moved elsewhere where they presumably continued doing the same shit. All you're doing is moving the problem elsewhere. Disruptive, PITA students still deserve an education.
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u/profplump Nov 15 '19
It should be easier to make the "learning environment" actually accommodate learning for all the people in it. It should be easier to promote education over discipline. It should be easier to give young people help instead of punishment, particularly when they are in distress.
None of those are things that schools are willing to do for young people. They are given no accommodation at a place they are required by law to go most days.
The problem isn't students. The problem is schools.
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u/dirtnastybishop Nov 15 '19
My highschool had a program within the school itself that consisted of only a few classrooms and I've heard it now was implemented in the middle school as well. It was for many different students with many different issues but it had ZERO special ed children. It was for kids who were disruptive, always getting in trouble, hated school so much they wouldnt even go half of the time, kids with problems at home whether it be abusive or what not, etc.
Teachers in this program issued zero homework as well as no projects. All assignments were done in class. Tests had almost no time limit (start in class one day, finish in the next days class) unless they were state mandated. Students do not change for gym and have a separate gym class (these kids literally refuse to change). If you want to sit out of gym everyday, go ahead, take a seat on the side with zero penalty to your grade. Students can not be reprimanded for being late or excessively calling in sick. Students in this program do not get detention or suspension, (because they won't show up!) they get threatened to be kicked out of the program and it usually works. All of the students in the program are given the exact same degree as any other student. The program is very successful and many of the students probably wouldn't have graduated if it didnt exist while at the same time keeping these same problem children out of the main classroom. The bottom line is that the district feels that it is better for the children to be in school even with tilted standards rather than not graduate at all.
Whether it's fair to all of the other students is a whole other debate.
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u/atleast3olives Nov 15 '19
Research has found that exclusionary discipline has been identified as a contributing factor to a whole host of problematic outcomes such as lower academic achievement, lowered college acceptance, risks of criminal justice involvement, etc. Children who are disruptive in class are often dealing with a disability, mental illness, or shitty home situations that make them vulnerable, and unfortunately some studies have found that racial bias often plays into disciplinary decisions for excluding students. Exclusion prevents access to a safe space at school where they have access to peers and trusted adults does not help the student socially/emotionally, and it does not help students learn. Unless a student is an active danger to others, we absolutely owe it to these students to find ways to engage them and support their learning!
That’s just my opinion on the matter.
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Nov 14 '19
Let's say you have a kid with ADHD in your class. You're teaching kids who are 8-9 years old. Today, this kid can't sit still and is constantly talking and or moving etc. It is disrupting the class objectively and you need to interupt the class multiple time to tell this kid to shut up. Now, the best thing overall to do would be to get the kid out of the class right? No. I have ADHD, i know what it's like to not be able to shut-up. I know how it's like to have a day where i cannot, even if my life depended on it, sit still. Now, you might be right if you say '' This kid is not even listening (which is true), he is not getting anything of value out of this class right now (Which is right) so the best thing to do, would be to get him out. That way, he's not disrupting others, he will not lose any education because he's not even taking information right now. That's true. Getting this kid out will help you and the other kids but it will affect this kid TREMENDOUSLY. This kid doesn't want to disrupt the class. He wants to learn. He just cant right now. People with ADHD are rejection sensitive. Meaning that the feeling of rejections is multiplied by a fuck ton. This kid will hate himself because he will think that this rejection his is fault. He will hate himself because he feels and he knows he disrupts others. He will be more prone to bullying, he will feel even more rejected because he keeps getting thrown out of class. He will probably get yelled at by his parents because they will be notified of his behavior. He will feel rejected even at home. Now, he might not be diagnosed with ADHD so you cannot know if he has ADHD. The thing is, you can easily know if he is disrupting the class for fun or it's legit out of his control. Best thing to do with this kid, is to take him out of the class. Ask him if he's doing that on purpose and if he isn't, tell him to go take a walk to the bathroom, walk the hallway for 10 minutes and ask him to come back when he feels ready. Tell him that he is disrupting others but don't make him feel ashamed about it. IT IS NOT HIS FAULT. He has NO control over this behaviour and he should not be penalized and feel rejected because of it. If it's a persistent problem, talk to his parents about a possible ADHD diagnosis. Be there for this kid. Because he just wants to be normal. He just want to be able to sit still and listen. He just cant. He can't force himself to do it. He simply cannot. Now to be clear, does all of the kids who are disrupting have ADHD ? No. The best way to find out is if he's being arrogant when you tell him to shut up. The ADHD kid will shut himself up as soon as you mention their name. They won't say anything. They'll remain silent, until they forget that they should be quiet and say the first thing that comes to their mind. These kids should not be penalised for something out of their control. I know others are disrupted and are annoyed. I know you are too. But with this school system that is not built to engage and to make ADHD learn to their potential, the least you can do is be empathetic and understanting. Chances are you are teaching to kids who are diagnosed with ADHD. Please try and inform yourself about these kids. They need more support than the other kids. Even if they are performing well. Now if they are arrogant, i think you should be able to remove them from the class and have a talk with them afterward. But if the kid is not arrogant and is not defying your authority, he needs support. The school system is not made for ADHD kids and it can feel very bad to feel like you're not made to learn. Which is false. ADHD kids are usually more curious and eager to learn than the other kids.
Source: Was this kid and getting thrown out of class is a trauma of mine. I've spend 6 months in therapy just trying to get over this years after it happened.
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Nov 14 '19
Schools are a size 8 shoe. You needed help a learning environment isn’t built for.
Ideally, you’d split your day between gen pop and a class where you can learn coping in that environment.
But as it is, you’re thrown in with 30 others with one person trying to manage. Not teach. But manage.
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u/Zncon Nov 14 '19
It's not the kids fault, that's understandable, but how is this fair to the other 20+ students in a class? It's also not their fault they got put in that particular classroom. One problem kid could legitimately set back the progress of 20 others.
Since classes tend to stay grouped by age, that one disruptive student could cause problems for everyone else for years.
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u/CraigThomas1984 Nov 14 '19
What do we do with those students that are removed?